Generals Of Westeros

[Frey Pie]

I believe Ramsay is a lot better than people give him credit for. Of course he is a completely horrible person and all, but his victory at Winterfell was very impressive.

Ramsay: 600 men

Stark loyalists: 3000+ men

Result: the Stark forces are completely destroyed (The other northmen think Ironmen did it, meaning that the numbers of survivors from the battle must have been very few), Ramsay loses like a dozen men. Those are utterly amazing statistics. Even though Ramsay had the element of surprise, managing to completely slaughter an army five times the size of yours with so few losses is some serious shit. He then goes on to take Winterfell in a similar way, barely having to fight.

Of course he has relied alot on treachery and ugly tricks, but it's not like the other great generals used to fight farily either, so that shouldn't discount him from the competition. Robb Starks victories at the Whispering Woods and Oxcross were won by ambushes on completely unsuspecting enemies, and Tyrion won at the Blackwater because he loaded some merchant ships up with magic napalm. Dany crushed the Yunkai because she bribed their sellswords to switch sides, and then let her army attack at night while the Yunkai thought they were still negotiating terms.

I obviously dont think Ramsay is one of the greatest generals in the world or anything, but he acually seems to be pretty dangerous.

I believe the Northern forces were close to two thousand while Ramsays was just over 600 so almost 3:1. Still impressive i agree. What you need to realise however is that IIRC the Stark host was left leaderless almost straight away. The first strike was the one which took of Rodrik Cassels arm. Cley Cerwyn and Leobald Tallhart were also nearby and so i assume they were killed pretty quickly too

Effective though i agree

[Chaircat Meow]

I obviously dont think Ramsay is one of the greatest generals in the world or anything, but he acually seems to be pretty dangerous.

Yea, you may have a good point here. He seems too erratic and unstable to really be good though.

[Tetrarch42]

Stannis seems to have the most success overall. Held Storm's End, crushed the Iron Fleet, conquered the ancestral seat of the Targaryens(Dragonstone), went on to subdue Great Wyk, defeated Mance Rayder at a 1:20 number disadvantage, retook Deepwood Motte and seems to be preparing effectively for the coming battle against the usurpers in the North.

He did lose at the Black Water, though it might be said that this was largely an unforseeable situation due to Littlefinger's alliance building and Edmure's recklessness/lack of communication between Robb and his lieutenants.

Stannis appears the most accomplished over all, though perhaps not the most successful(owing to his one rather large defeat).

I think it's unfair to say he's an unflexible commander given that he's a proven general under seige, at sea, heading a frontal assault, and landing on/holding territory. No other general can claim success in nearly so many areas of combat.

[King Aerys the Just]

Ah, I looked it up and it seems the Starks had two thousand men instead three. So you were right. As you agree though it was still a very impressive victory, and I think sniping the enemy leadership like he did at the start of the battle was a very clever, dastardly as it might have been Edit: He must also have done some really skilled manuevering to cut such a large army off from retreating. I recall Theon mentioning something about the Stark forces being pushed up against the houses of Moletown again and again, and being gradually cut apart by Ramsay's more mobile men throughout the day, until they all were dead.

I do agree that his insanity might make the quality of his decisions very "variable" depending on the situation, but during his clear moments he is definately a capable leader and a cunning general. I believe that much is obvious.

[Frey Pie]

I think it's unfair to say he's an unflexible commander given that he's a proven general under seige, at sea, heading a frontal assault, and landing on/holding territory. No other general can claim success in nearly so many areas of combat.

Precisely. It is this fact that puts him at the top of the list for me. If this doesnt show flexibility of command i dont know what does. A few points against Stannis are one or two of his lines in Dance-wanting to take the Dreadfort, wanting to storm Winterfell against even numbers etc. He was lucky on the first account that Jon Snow gave him good sound advice. He also shows the good sense and flexibility to listen to Jon which is a point for him

[Frey Pie]

Ah, I looked it up and it seems the Starks had two thousand men instead three. So you were right. As you agree though it was still a very impressive victory, and I think sniping the enemy leadership like he did at the start of the battle was a very clever, dastardly as it might have been Edit: He must also have done some really skilled manuevering to cut such a large army off from retreating. I recall Theon mentioning something about the Stark forces being pushed up against the houses of Moletown again and again, and being gradually cut apart by Ramsay's more mobile men throughout the day, until they all were dead.

I do agree that his insanity might make the quality of his decisions very "variable" depending on the situation, but during his clear moments he is definately a capable leader and a cunning general. I believe that much is obvious.

I believe Ramsays well trained horsemen were described as charging, wheeling and charging again. The town you are referring to would be the Wintertown i believe. I agree with Brans synopsis. Id prefer to be up against Ramsay than Roose, even if he did pull off this win competently

[Barty]

The very good or Greats

1. Ned :Never lost a battle in Robert's or Balon's Rebellion(Balon especially hated him - even though his sons were killed by Jason Mallister who was a riverman so we can conclude that Ned played a major role in his downfall), saw through Tywin's move of burning riverland villages (the very same which Edmure fell for by scattering his forces), and most probably was the one who taught Robb.

2:Robb: Never beaten even when outnumbered by big margins - manages to outfox both Jaime and Tywin Lannister( you could say he even outfoxes Tyrion, since Tyrion was with Tywin's army at the time and he too was taken by surprise when he heard what Robb did).

3.Robert: He had one defeat at the hands of Tarly but I think managing to retreat in good order and also his feat of winning 3 battles in one day puts him in this category

The Good

1.Tywin: Obviously managing to defeat the Tarbecks and Reynes, winning the green fork, and blackwater counts in his favor but he being outmaneuvered by Robb and then beaten at stone hedge by Edmure is what puts him in this category also he fails to pursue and destroy the Stark foot even though he had heavy horse(which the starks lacked). He is a far better administrator than he is a battle commander

2.Tarly: Wins at Ashford and duskendale - is admired a lot and feared as well. But we haven't really seen him beat the odds - The Battle of Ashford was not a major victory - he failed to pursue the rebel army and Duskendale was won with heavy casualties.

The Average

1. Stannis: Does nothing in Robert's rebellion but sit in one of the strongest castles in the kingdom and starving. Doesnt inspire support from even Baratheon men - They all joined Renly first and then defected to Tywin. Loses the Blackwater and would have been lying dead at the walls of the Dreadfort if Jon Snow had not saved his a**.(would have been lying dead at Storm's End if Ned hadn't saved his a** and then dead at Storm's end again is Mel hadn't saved his a**) But does defeat Victarion and the iron fleet.

2. Victarion: Loses to Stannis, but does manage to take Moat Cailin, albeit from the flanks where it is not so hard and suffers huge casualties at the hands of the bogmen(Curses the bogmen quite vehemently in his dwd chapters.)

3. Edmure - beaten by Jaime, outfoxed by Tywin into spreading out his forces and has too soft a heart to be one of the greats. But does defeat Tywin at the Stone Hedge but that wasnt a very big battle.

The Promising

1. Jon Snow - Taught by Ned along with Robb. Held the wall and nearly spoon feeds Stannis his strategy in the north. But hasn't been tested as a commander in a large battle.

2.Jaime Lannister: Was a very poor general before his hand was cut off - but now seems more cautious and capable and he has the advantage of a lifetime of battle experience, but his new self hasn't been tested in a real battle so we cant say how good he is.

[Fat Mac]

Wow, the put Stannis in any average category makes no since, but lately there seems to be a war on this board concerning Stannis' leadership ability.

Either way, I'd put him at the top. Holding Storm's End for a year while he starved shows iron will. His will is stronger than anybody else in the series, I'm sure of that. He took Dragonstone, defeated the Iron Fleet, took Great Wyk, almost won at the Blackwater, took out Mance's forces and retook Deepwood Motte. I expect when WoW comes out he can include smashing Roose's army at Winterfell to the list. Overall, we dont really have a commander who has this good of a track record, maybe except Robb.

After Stannis I'd say Robb, again, because of the track record. Then beyond that probably Ned and Robert, then Tywin etc.

[Batman]

Ned and Robert are the top two for me, I can't split them.

[Frey Pie]

@Barty

I think your list is pretty good but youre forgetting Stannis beat the Wildlings in their territory and massively outnumbered. He also subdued one of the largest islands of the Iron Isles and took Dragonstone in RR. While he is not popular like Robert his ability to keep discipline in the ranks is unbelievable. While he got smashed at the BW, his retreat was also miraculous

[Alric Stark]

Top Tier: Elite

Ned Stark, Jon Arryn, Robert Baratheon: Main through virtue of being the forces that won the Rebellion.

Robb Stark

2nd Tier: Superior

Stannis Baratheon (If he wins the Battle of Winterfell he will move to Elite)

Victorion Greyjoy

Tywin Lannister

Bryden Tully

Roose Bolton

3rd Tier: Capable

Randyl Tarly

Jon Snow

Mace Rayder

Ramsey Bolton

Jaime Lannister

Edmure Tully

Loras Tyrell

4th Tier: Below Average

Mace Tyrell

Most Wildling Generals

Tyrion: He had a shining moment on the Blackwater, but is better at politics not generalship.

[Frey Pie]

Wow, the put Stannis in any average category makes no since, but lately there seems to be a war on this board concerning Stannis' leadership ability.

Either way, I'd put him at the top. Holding Storm's End for a year while he starved shows iron will. His will is stronger than anybody else in the series, I'm sure of that. He took Dragonstone, defeated the Iron Fleet, took Great Wyk, almost won at the Blackwater, took out Mance's forces and retook Deepwood Motte. I expect when WoW comes out he can include smashing Roose's army at Winterfell to the list. Overall, we dont really have a commander who has this good of a track record, maybe except Robb.

After Stannis I'd say Robb, again, because of the track record. Then beyond that probably Ned and Robert, then Tywin etc.

Well said. I cant figure people putting Stannis out of the top three. Hes made mistakes but really as far as we know they all have even if Robbs were more political and trust errors than military

[King Aerys the Just]

Why isn't Dany on anybody's list? She has won more battles than the majority of generals mentioned here. I'd put her as AT LEAST second tier, but given the fact that she has never even been close to losing an engagement she might be in the absolute top.

@ Frey Pie. Haha yeah that was a stupid typo, but I always get the little towns mixed up.

[Frey Pie]

Alric im not sure how you could put Victarion and Roose at the same level as Stannis and Tywin, above Randyll Tarly? Roose might be good but wev seen nothing but failure from him so far, wether he meant to lose constantly or not is another question

[Alric Stark]

Why isn't Dany on anybody's list? She has won more battles than the majority of generals mentioned here. I'd put her as AT LEAST second tier, but given the fact that she has never even been close to losing an engagement she might be in the absolute top.

Thread title is Generals of Westeros. She has had zero Battles in Westeros. Everything has been in Esseros.

[Alric Stark]

Alric im not sure how you could put Victarion and Roose at the same level as Stannis and Tywin, above Randyll Tarly? Roose might be good but wev seen nothing but failure from him so far, wether he meant to lose constantly or not is another question

In same category, but Stannis is top hence the note afterwards if he wins Winterfell he enters the next category. The rest in the category are not going to become elite. Stannis would be there already if not for Blackwater. Tywin loses points for being outmanuvered by Robb as badly as he was.

[King Aerys the Just]

Thread title is Generals of Westeros. She has had zero Battles in Westeros. Everything has been in Esseros.

She is a Westerosi general by birth, so why does it matter where her battles were fought? It's not like Victarion or Stannis won their greatest victories in Westeros either; they won them at sea. Or saying that Patton and Eisenhower shouldn't be on a list of America's greatest generals because all their battles were in Europe.

[Frey Pie]

Why isn't Dany on anybody's list? She has won more battles than the majority of generals mentioned here. I'd put her as AT LEAST second tier, but given the fact that she has never even been close to losing an engagement she might be in the absolute top.

@ Frey Pie. Haha yeah that was a stupid typo, but I always get the little towns mixed up.

Well Dany took the Unsullied and Astapor by a trick, not a feat of arms. She took Meereen well but to be honest the forces shes faced are a joke. Not one of them would be close to what a Westerosi high lord could get. The only exception is possibly the Legions Of Ghis, but she hasnt faced them

[Frey Pie]

In same category, but Stannis is top hence the note afterwards if he wins Winterfell he enters the next category. The rest in the category are not going to become elite. Stannis would be there already if not for Blackwater. Tywin loses points for being outmanuvered by Robb as badly as he was.

Ok your opinion but what has Roose ever won?

[Alric Stark]

Ok your opinion but what has Roose ever won?

Looking at the listI probably should have moved Roose down a peg. Probably put him there based upon association with Robb's victories, and being in in the planning of the RW, which is more political then command.