Generals Of Westeros

[Frey Pie]

Looking at the listI probably should have moved Roose down a peg. Probably put him there based upon association with Robb's victories, and being in in the planning of the RW, which is more political then command.

I dont think he had any part in Robbs victories other than keeping Tywin busy, which he could have done with far less losses IMO. If anything he may have had an unknown impact on Neds success in Roberts Rebellion

[Alric Stark]

I dont think he had any part in Robbs victories other than keeping Tywin busy, which he could have done with far less losses IMO. If anything he may have had an unknown impact on Neds success in Roberts Rebellion

IIRC he tied Tywin down with a much smaller force which allowed Robb to outmanuver the Lannister forces. Also he seemed to be Robb's go to guy when he split forces.

[King Aerys the Just]

Well Dany took the Unsullied and Astapor by a trick, not a feat of arms. She took Meereen well but to be honest the forces shes faced are a joke. Not one of them would be close to what a Westerosi high lord could get. The only exception is possibly the Legions Of Ghis, but she hasnt faced them

Astapor I could give you, but Mereen was definately an impressive victory. Regardless of how skilled the defenders are, assaulting an enormous fortified city is no easy task. It's not like Dany's army was all elite either. She had her Unsullied and her sellswords, but the majority of her army consisted of former slaves with looted equipment. She still managed to capture the city quickly and with (presumably) limited losses, by letting a group of commandoes sneak through the sewers and stage a slave rebellion inside the walls. Pretty smart if you ask me. Her victory against Yunkai can't just be handwaved away either, yeah they were disadvantaged from the start due to numbers and training, but through clever planning and some underhanded tactics she managed to wipe them out in a single night while barely losing any men, which is still a good job.

People praise Stannis because he won at Dragonstone and the Iron Islands, while we don't have any numbers at all regarding those conflicts. I think it is pretty likely that, especially during Balon's rebellion, his opponents were extremely outnumbered. Given that they faced a united seven kingdoms while only being able to draw troops and ships from a bunch of Islands that together might make up 2% of Westeros area. Robb's victory at Oxcross was an ambush against second-rate levies who might even have been in training still, etc.

Dany will likely win at Mereen the next book too, this time against much harder opposition.

[Frey Pie]

Astapor I could give you, but Mereen was definately an impressive victory. Regardless of how skilled the defenders are, assaulting an enormous fortified city is no easy task. It's not like Dany's army was all elite either. She had her Unsullied and her sellswords, but the majority of her army consisted of former slaves with looted equipment. She still managed to capture the city quickly and with (presumably) limited losses, by letting a group of commandoes sneak through the sewers and stage a slave rebellion inside the walls. Pretty smart if you ask me. Her victory against Yunkai can't just be handwaved away either, yeah they were disadvantaged from the start due to numbers and training, but through clever planning and some underhanded tactics she managed to wipe them out in a single night while barely losing any men, which is still a good job.

People praise Stannis because he won at Dragonstone and the Iron Islands, while we don't have any numbers at all regarding those conflicts. I think it is pretty likely that, especially during Balon's rebellion, his opponents were extremely outnumbered. Given that they faced a united seven kingdoms while only being able to draw troops and ships from a bunch of Islands that together might make up 2% of Westeros area. Robb's victory at Oxcross was an ambush against second-rate levies who might even have been in training still, etc.

Dany will likely win at Mereen the next book too, this time against much harder opposition.

I think if you read about the host besieging Mereen youll see they really are a joke except for the Legions. The fact is Stannis caught and shattered the fleet of the greatest sea power in Westeros. Its true we dont have numbers but from what we know he absolutely hammerred them. Dragonstone is a heavily fortified island which can never be taken easily. We know Loras did it with huge losses. Robbs victory wasnt against the best of opponents, but is a great logistical feat. Lets not forget he was largely outnumbered also.

Dany isnt a bad commander but i think if you put her up against any of the men in the first or second tiers she wont do well

[Chaircat Meow]

I like your list, but a few comments.

The very good or Greats

1. Ned :Never lost a battle in Robert's or Balon's Rebellion(Balon especially hated him - even though his sons were killed by Jason Mallister who was a riverman so we can conclude that Ned played a major role in his downfall), saw through Tywin's move of burning riverland villages (the very same which Edmure fell for by scattering his forces), and most probably was the one who taught Robb.

Ned was only in charge at one battle, that of Stony Sept and even there Robert was on hand. So him not losing it doesn't seem quite enough to justify him being put ahead of men like Tywin and Tarly.

Robert was very clearly the commander against Balon and Stannis won the battle at sea. Ned would only have been number 2. Ned was the one who carried off Balon's son too, and this may explain the hatred.

I agree he was competent though but I think he's overrated.

The Good

1.Tywin: Obviously managing to defeat the Tarbecks and Reynes, winning the green fork, and blackwater counts in his favor but he being outmaneuvered by Robb and then beaten at stone hedge by Edmure is what puts him in this category also he fails to pursue and destroy the Stark foot even though he had heavy horse(which the starks lacked). He is a far better administrator than he is a battle commander

Well, Tywin is shown as having good outriders in GoT. He did all he could to gain knowledge of the enemies movements. He is also said by multiple sources (Robb, to use one example, also Tyrion) to be difficult to surprise. In fact, its this very fact that, in part, leads Robb to adopt the plan he does.

Robb's plan did only work too because Jaime was not cautious and careful, like his father, something that is also stated explicitly. If Jaime had been more careful Robb would have really come unstuck. So I tend to think Tywin basically gets failed by his subordinates in multiple instances.

The Average

1. Stannis: Does nothing in Robert's rebellion but sit in one of the strongest castles in the kingdom and starving. Doesnt inspire support from even Baratheon men - They all joined Renly first and then defected to Tywin. Loses the Blackwater and would have been lying dead at the walls of the Dreadfort if Jon Snow had not saved his a**.(would have been lying dead at Storm's End if Ned hadn't saved his a** and then dead at Storm's end again is Mel hadn't saved his a**) But does defeat Victarion and the iron fleet.

Holding together a starving garrison for a year is impressive in my book, but whatever. His men seem pretty loyal as of DwD.

3. Edmure - beaten by Jaime, outfoxed by Tywin into spreading out his forces and has too soft a heart to be one of the greats. But does defeat Tywin at the Stone Hedge but that wasnt a very big battle.

More of a repulse than anything else.

2.Jaime Lannister: Was a very poor general before his hand was cut off - but now seems more cautious and capable and he has the advantage of a lifetime of battle experience, but his new self hasn't been tested in a real battle so we cant say how good he is.

Agree.

[Bourne]

Astapor I could give you, but Mereen was definately an impressive victory. Regardless of how skilled the defenders are, assaulting an enormous fortified city is no easy task. It's not like Dany's army was all elite either. She had her Unsullied and her sellswords, but the majority of her army consisted of former slaves with looted equipment. She still managed to capture the city quickly and with (presumably) limited losses, by letting a group of commandoes sneak through the sewers and stage a slave rebellion inside the walls. Pretty smart if you ask me. Her victory against Yunkai can't just be handwaved away either, yeah they were disadvantaged from the start due to numbers and training, but through clever planning and some underhanded tactics she managed to wipe them out in a single night while barely losing any men, which is still a good job.

People praise Stannis because he won at Dragonstone and the Iron Islands, while we don't have any numbers at all regarding those conflicts. I think it is pretty likely that, especially during Balon's rebellion, his opponents were extremely outnumbered. Given that they faced a united seven kingdoms while only being able to draw troops and ships from a bunch of Islands that together might make up 2% of Westeros area. Robb's victory at Oxcross was an ambush against second-rate levies who might even have been in training still, etc.

Dany will likely win at Mereen the next book too, this time against much harder opposition.

I agree with your point about Robb, especially considering a magic wolf got him there in the first place, but I can't give much credit to Dany for mereen. It was Barristans plan that got them in and brought the city down. I'll give you that she took advantage of her advisors knowledge, which is a valuable tool, but she had almost nothing to do with the battle itself.

[Frey Pie]

More of a repulse than anything else.

It didnt change anything in the long term i agree but i dont think Edmures success here should be downplayed. Lets also not forget that Tywins decision to go West is probably the wrong one.

Edmure beat off Tywin wit a significantly smaller force. He had few casualties himself and Tywins i would think were significant enough. Ser Gregor probably suffered the worst losses but Addam Marbrand was thrown back three times and Lord Leo Lefford was killed, with Strongboar taken captive. Would Tywin have eventually won over? Probably but with huge losses and the Tullys can always retreat to the safety of RR

[Frey Pie]

I agree with your point about Robb, especially considering a magic wolf got him there in the first place, but I can't give much credit to Dany for mereen.

If wer going to pick apart plot gifts all the generals would go way down. Dany getting her dragons and hence her Unsullied, Robb and GreyWind, Tywin being saved by his defeat, Tyrion even being alive to see the BW etcetc. Most of the characters have had such improbable plot devices

[Barty]

Wow, the put Stannis in any average category makes no since, but lately there seems to be a war on this board concerning Stannis' leadership ability.

Either way, I'd put him at the top. Holding Storm's End for a year while he starved shows iron will. His will is stronger than anybody else in the series, I'm sure of that. He took Dragonstone, defeated the Iron Fleet, took Great Wyk, almost won at the Blackwater, took out Mance's forces and retook Deepwood Motte. I expect when WoW comes out he can include smashing Roose's army at Winterfell to the list. Overall, we dont really have a commander who has this good of a track record, maybe except Robb.

After Stannis I'd say Robb, again, because of the track record. Then beyond that probably Ned and Robert, then Tywin etc.

Holding Storm's End does show will power(which he does have in far more quantity than any other man in the series) - but he didn't really have a choice, he couldn't surrender because he was Robert's brother and Aerys would have killed him. And the man he was facing during that siege didn't even mount a single assault on Storm's End, thus denying Stannis a chance to actually show his skills as general.

A very important quality in a general is that men should be willing to follow and die for him - like the northmen are willing to do for the Starks, however Stannis is probably one of the most disliked men in westeros, if even Baratheon men wont follow him then it doesn't look good for him.

I forgot the taking of Dragonstone - An important victory for him but again the Targ forces were already decimated in the earlier battles and the Targ fleet guarding Dragonstone was smashed the earlier night in the huge storm, add to that he also let Danny and Viserys escape. And Loras Tyrell took Dragonstone as well - in his first attempt at being general - so I cant imagine it being all that tough for Stannis.

His victory against Victarion and taking of Great Wik is the only truly impressive feat in his career - full points here.

Wildling battle - ok I'll add that but it wasnt too impressive a feat - the wildlings have no discipline, no weapons and no armor.

And we shouldn't be counting Deepwood Motte because IIRC it was Jon's plan, not Stannis'. Stannis' plan was to go and attack the Dreadfort - a plan which would have lost him his war.

He is certainly impressive and looking at just his career I would have put him in the second tier but what puts him into the average category is the number of times his a** had to be saved, First by Ned, then by Mel, and then by Jon.

[Frey Pie]

Holding Storm's End does show will power(which he does have in far more quantity than any other man in the series) - but he didn't really have a choice, he couldn't surrender because he was Robert's brother and Aerys would have killed him. And the man he was facing during that siege didn't even mount a single assault on Storm's End, thus denying Stannis a chance to actually show his skills as general.

A very important quality in a general is that men should be willing to follow and die for him - like the northmen are willing to do for the Starks, however Stannis is probably one of the most disliked men in westeros, if even Baratheon men wont follow him then it doesn't look good for him.

I forgot the taking of Dragonstone - An important victory for him but again the Targ forces were already decimated in the earlier battles and the Targ fleet guarding Dragonstone was smashed the earlier night in the huge storm, add to that he also let Danny and Viserys escape. And Loras Tyrell took Dragonstone as well - in his first attempt at being general - so I cant imagine it being all that tough for Stannis.

His victory against Victarion and taking of Great Wik is the only truly impressive feat in his career - full points here.

Wildling battle - ok I'll add that but it wasnt too impressive a feat - the wildlings have no discipline, no weapons and no armor.

And we shouldn't be counting Deepwood Motte because IIRC it was Jon's plan, not Stannis'. Stannis' plan was to go and attack the Dreadfort - a plan which would have lost him his war.

He is certainly impressive and looking at just his career I would have put him in the second tier but what puts him into the average category is the number of times his a** had to be saved, First by Ned, then by Mel, and then by Jon.

Dragonstone is a fortress. Its never going to be easy to take no matter who you are. The fact is Stannis held out the power of the Reach and stopped them from joining Rhaegar at the Trident. To keep discipline over a starving group for a year is unbelievable so i would say people do follow him. What sets stannis apart is he has won victories on land and sea

Also Tywin got his ass saved by Mace, LF, Roose and Edmure. Tyrion in turn got his ass saved by Tywin, Mace and the gang. Robert got his ass saved by Ned etc etc.

[Barty]

I like your list, but a few comments.

Ned was only in charge at one battle, that of Stony Sept and even there Robert was on hand. So him not losing it doesn't seem quite enough to justify him being put ahead of men like Tywin and Tarly.

Robert was very clearly the commander against Balon and Stannis won the battle at sea. Ned would only have been number 2. Ned was the one who carried off Balon's son too, and this may explain the hatred.

I agree he was competent though but I think he's overrated.

I did have to think a lot before putting Ned right up there - but from what I read in GoT - he sees through Tywin's strategy easily and is stated as commanding Robert's van in all battles. Robert might have held overall command but in the battles he was always too busy fighting to actually oversee the battlefield tactics, In his place I think it was Ned who actually oversaw the battle as general(like Tywin does).

But he and Robb are the only ones who were never defeated so that is why he is number 1 in my list.

Well, Tywin is shown as having good outriders in GoT. He did all he could to gain knowledge of the enemies movements. He is also said by multiple sources (Robb, to use one example, also Tyrion) to be difficult to surprise. In fact, its this very fact that, in part, leads Robb to adopt the plan he does.

Robb's plan did only work too because Jaime was not cautious and careful, like his father, something that is also stated explicitly. If Jaime had been more careful Robb would have really come unstuck. So I tend to think Tywin basically gets failed by his subordinates in multiple instances.

Yes Tywin is certainly a very good commander, but he does underestimate Robb and that costs him(underestimating your enemy is considered one of the biggest mistakes a general can make) - this is the mistake which puts him in the 2nd tier rather than the first

Holding together a starving garrison for a year is impressive in my book, but whatever. His men seem pretty loyal as of DwD.

His men seem to be more loyal to Mel and the red god than to Stannis - but that's just my opinion based on ADwD

More of a repulse than anything else.

Agreed but repulsing Tywin's Van led by Gregor Clegane is also no small feat.

[Barty]

Dragonstone is a fortress. Its never going to be easy to take no matter who you are. The fact is Stannis held out the power of the Reach and stopped them from joining Rhaegar at the Trident. To keep discipline over a starving group for a year is unbelievable so i would say people do follow him. What sets stannis apart is he has won victories on land and sea

Also Tywin got his ass saved by Mace, LF, Roose and Edmure. Tyrion in turn got his ass saved by Tywin, Mace and the gang. Robert got his ass saved by Ned etc etc.

I think how he took Dragonstone is more important. If he took it with minimal casualties by finding some unknown weaknesses then sure he is a great general, but if he took it like Loras Tyrell takes Dragonstone then it doesnt show much skill.

So till we find out how he took Dragonstone I will assume he took it by force(just like Tyrell).

He did have some discipline issues in Storm's End siege - he had to hang at least three of his lieutenants for trying to open the gate.

We haven't seen the best of Stannis yet and I am only judging him on the basis of what we have seen - if he somehow wins the battle of ice, then sure he will win my respect and move up a slot or 2. But if he again has to be saved by Jon or Wyman Manderly(by him turning on the Freys), then he stays where he is(in my list - no doubt lots of people disagree).

[lorrd pytyr peristalsis]

Can someone please show me the quote where Robert said "Ned won me the throne." I'd like to see it in context.

I think the actual quote is something like:" you helped me win this throne, now help me keep it." I believe he said it in GOT when he is asking The Ned to be Hand.

[Chaircat Meow]

I did have to think a lot before putting Ned right up there - but from what I read in GoT - he sees through Tywin's strategy easily and is stated as commanding Robert's van in all battles. Robert might have held overall command but in the battles he was always too busy fighting to actually oversee the battlefield tactics, In his place I think it was Ned who actually oversaw the battle as general(like Tywin does).

But he and Robb are the only ones who were never defeated so that is why he is number 1 in my list.

If Ned leads Robert's van he can't be overseeing the battle like Tywin does. If you want to oversee the battle you command the reserve, not the van. So this actually shows Ned wasn't the brain behind Robert's victories.

Yes Tywin is certainly a very good commander, but he does underestimate Robb and that costs him(underestimating your enemy is considered one of the biggest mistakes a general can make) - this is the mistake which puts him in the 2nd tier rather than the first

Well, ok, I guess I think Tywin didn't really underestimate Robb in any kind of egregious way.

He doesn't have any info on Robb to go on in GoT, he only knows he is 15 and totally inexperienced. He has to make some judgment about him and the one he does make is more reasonable than assuming he's some kind of military genius.

He is also correct that Robb doesn't want to face his army and might get cold feet. This is the reason Tywin advances up the GF rather than remain at the ford and the reason Robb adopts the plan he does.

Robb did want to put the Greatjon in charge of the infantry (until Cat stopped him) and he did marry Jeyne, so... rash isn't entirely undeserved.

Note that in Storm Tywin does have a proper estimation of Robb and says the boy is cautious in the field. So he didn't underestimate him once he knew what sort of commander he was.

I think some people assume Tywin ought to be psychic during GoT or something, but most of his judgments seem reasonable to me.

Neither Tywin or Tyrion seem to cotton onto what Robb might do if he can persuade the Freys to side with him, I'll give you that. Maybe they should have been more wary of this. On the other hand its still Jaime's responsibility to make sure an army doesn't sneak up on him and its not Tywin's fault he didn't,and as I stated, Tywin does know where the Stark army is, his outriders just seem unable to pick up on the absence of 3,000 or so horsemen.

Agreed but repulsing Tywin's Van led by Gregor Clegane is also no small feat.

Agreed.

[Bourne]

I think a lot of people fall victim to the disproportinate sample sizes we have for the different generals. Being undefeated does not necessarily make you the best general. If I have an army of 100,000 fighting and army of 1,000, I could be Patchface and I would win every battle. Conversely, if I have a army of 1,000 fighting an army of 100,000, I could be Napoleon and I doubt I'd win a single conflict. Not all battles are created equal. People place to much emphasis on battle records, but those only tell half the story. Allow me to quote Sun Tzu:

To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.

The longer a general is around the more likely they are to lose, so people tend to judge the more experienced generals more harshly than the experienced ones. As a result, people like Ned and Robb are exalted for never losing a battle, despite Ned being involved in 3 real battles and Robb about the same. That doesn't mean they aren't great, but have an unbeated record (especially in Ned's case where he was never actually 1st in command) doesn't automatically mean you're great. Really, according to Sun Tzu, Tywin would be the best general because he's the one who was able to submit his enemy through means other than open battle.

Now, obviously, you have to take into account all the extenuating circumstances for each general, so I'm not trying to argue that Tywin is the best based purely off Sun Tzu's reasoning. I just want to point out that given enough time, at some point everyone will make a mistake. That doesn't lessen their abilities, it just means they're human.

[Chaircat Meow]

I think the actual quote is something like:" you helped me win this throne, now help me keep it." I believe he said it in GOT when he is asking The Ned to be Hand.

Yea, that's what I recall. People need to remember why Robert says some of these things. He knows he's asking a lot of Ned.

The only time I recall Robert saying someone else won a battle was when he was quoted (by one of the BwB iirc) talking about Stony Sept.

[Frey Pie]

I think a lot of people fall victim to the disproportinate sample sizes we have for the different generals. Being undefeated does not necessarily make you the best general. If i have an army of 100,000 fighting and army of 1,000 I could Patchface and I would win every battle. Conversely, if I have a army of 1,000 fighting an army of 100,000 I could be Napoleon and I doubt I'd win a single conflict. Not all battles are created equal. People place to much emphasis on battle records, but those only tell half the story. Allow me to quote Sun Tzu:

The longer a general is around the more likely they are to lose, so people tend to judge the more experienced generals more harshly than the experienced ones. As a result, people like Ned and Robb are exalted for never losing a battle, despite Ned being involved in 3 real battles and Robb about the same. That doesn't mean they aren't great, but have an unbeated record (especially in Ned's case where he was never actually 1st in command) doesn't automatically mean you're great. Really, according to Sun Tzu, Tywin would be the best general because he's the one who was able to submit his enemy through means other than open battle.

Now, obviously, you have to take into account all the extenuating circumstances for each general, so I'm not trying to argue that Tywin is the best based purely off Sun Tzu's reasoning. I just want to point out that given enough time, at some point everyone will make a mistake. That doesn't lessen their abilities, it just means they're human.

I doubt Ned was only involved in three battles in two wars seen as he was sole commander of the largest force of rebels. This is because each of the other rebels faced adversity at home but the Starks brought a full compliment. The Northern lords are proud and will only be led by a fellow Northerner, aka Ned Stark. Robert and Hoster couldnt bring near their full strength with Jon Arryn bringing the closest ammount of swords as Ned. Therefore it makes sense for Ned to have had a huge say in many battles

Yes all battles are different. We dont know truly if Ned was unbeaten. What we know for sure is Robb wasnt. Stannis, Tywin and Robert were all defeated

[Bourne]

I think the actual quote is something like:" you helped me win this throne, now help me keep it." I believe he said it in GOT when he is asking The Ned to be Hand.

Yes, that's what I assumed. There is a world of difference between "you helped me win the throne" and "Ned won the throne for me."

I doubt Ned was only involved in three battles in two wars seen as he was sole commander of the largest force of rebels. This is because each of the other rebels faced adversity at home but the Starks brought a full compliment. The Northern lords are proud and will only be led by a fellow Northerner, aka Ned Stark. Robert and Hoster couldnt bring near their full strength with Jon Arryn bringing the closest ammount of swords as Ned. Therefore it makes sense for Ned to have had a huge say in many battles

Yes all battles are different. We dont know truly if Ned was unbeaten. What we know for sure is Robb wasnt. Stannis, Tywin and Robert were all defeated

I'm assuming you meant Robb was. Regardless, I'm not really sure of you're point. We know Ned's contribution was vital to the rebellion. Without his army Robert couldn't have won. That doesn't make Ned a good general, it just means Ned had a large army. Robert never speaks to Ned's tactical and logistical ability being vital.

If wer going to pick apart plot gifts all the generals would go way down. Dany getting her dragons and hence her Unsullied, Robb and GreyWind, Tywin being saved by his defeat, Tyrion even being alive to see the BW etcetc. Most of the characters have had such improbable plot devices

Not every event in a story is a plot gift. A plot gift is a device, external to the character, that allows him to succeed where otherwise he would not and where an average character of comparable standing would not be able. If you substitute any female, Arianne for instance, into Dany's situation minus the dragons, she'd be dead in the Red Waste. Robert, if he were in Stannis' position minus the ability to make shadowbabies, wouldn't have defeated Renly. If we were to place Tywin in Robb's position but without the use of a magic wolf he wouldn't have been able to slip through the Golden Tooth (I believe that's what it was called) and suprise Stafford while encamped at Oxcross.

Conversely, If you were to place Robb in Tywin's situation, Robb could have chosen to march to King's Landing and aid Tyrion instead of chosing to cross the Riverlands. Same for Tywin. Even if Edmure hadn't harried Tywin, the Lannister forces could have still turned around. Any commander in the same position would have been capable of marching to KL. That is not true of any commander in Robb's position.

Essentially, a plot gift is something that is extraordinary to the average human. The ability to swordfight, even at Jaime's level, is not a plot gift. The ability to warg is. Dragons are a plot gift, shadowbabies are a plot gift, being repelled in a skirmish is not.

If you start counting every fortunate thing that happens to a character as a plot gift then you have to consider the Tyrell's having the largest army a plot gift or Robb being born a Stark as a plot gift. Somethings are just plot.

ETA: Also, not all plot gifts are created equal. Robbs ability to war is a big gift. Stannis having the shadowbabies is a gigantic gift. Dany having the Dragons is bigger than all the other plot gifts combined.

[Frey Pie]

Yes, that's what I assumed. There is a world of difference between "you helped me win the throne" and "Ned won the throne for me."

I'm assuming you meant Robb was. Regardless, I'm not really sure of you're point. We know Ned's contribution was vital to the rebellion. Without his army Robert couldn't have won. That doesn't make Ned a good general, it just means Ned had a large army. Robert never speaks to Ned's tactical and logistical ability being vital.

Not every event in a story is a plot gift. A plot gift is a device, external to the character, that allows him to succeed where otherwise he would not and where an average character of comparable standing would not be able. If you substitute any female, Arianne for instance, into Dany's situation minus the dragons, she'd be dead in the Red Waste. Robert, if he were in Stannis' position minus the ability to make shadowbabies, wouldn't have defeated Renly. If we were to place Tywin in Robb's position but without the use of a magic wolf he wouldn't have been able to slip through the Golden Tooth (I believe that's what it was called) and suprise Stafford while encamped at Oxcross.

Conversely, If you were to place Robb in Tywin's situation, Robb could have chosen to march to King's Landing and aid Tyrion instead of chosing to cross the Riverlands. Same for Tywin. Even if Edmure hadn't harried Tywin, the Lannister forces could have still turned around. Any commander in the same position would have been capable of marching to KL. That is not true of any commander in Robb's position.

Essentially, a plot gift is something that is extraordinary to the average human. The ability to swordfight, even at Jaime's level, is not a plot gift. The ability to warg is. Dragons are a plot gift, shadowbabies are a plot gift, being repelled in a skirmish is not.

If you start counting every fortunate thing that happens to a character as a plot gift then you have to consider the Tyrell's having the largest army a plot gift or Robb being born a Stark as a plot gift. Somethings are just plot.

ETA: Also, not all plot gifts are created equal. Robbs ability to war is a big gift. Stannis having the shadowbabies is a gigantic gift. Dany having the Dragons is bigger than all the other plot gifts combined.

What i meant is we dont know Ned was never defeated but we do know Robb was undefeated. And yes i agree with your plot gift stance. I dont see Grey Wolfs ability to find a goats path any bigger than those given to other commanders in places was my point

[E-Ro]

I agree we should not factor plot gifts negatively when judging someone, then tywin would not have the tyrells and robb would have to face another 10,000 westermen. Renly would win.