Battle of the Fords

[Im no Ser]

I dont think so. As Wales pointed out Robb can order Edmure to marry and as the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands his hand is one of Robbs greatest assets. Im in no way saying it was Edmures fault but for a person who was trained in warfare all his life Robbs plan should be pretty obvious. Then again nobody else in RR realised it either

But he *doesn't* order it. And while I don't have my books in front of me, my recollection is Robb tells Edmure he *won't* order him to do it. And it isn't like we have to look very far for an example of a Tully who refuses his liege lord's command to marry and sufferes basically no consequences.

I'm not 100% sold on the theory, but given that Robb's orders were as vague as they were, and that no one else in Robb's court - not just as RR - seemed to think the Battle of the Fords was anything but a good victory, the recriminations seemed odd.

[Wales338]

I know that Robb said that he wouldn't but its just a point to prove that Robb doesn't need to hide behind a lie to convince Edmure to marry a Frey. I however an not to sure about everyone who thought it was a good victory. Of course Edmures bannermen are going to say it was great while the King is claiming it was a great victory in public, be since we don't have anymore POV's we cannot actually tell how many people thought it was bad. We know for a fact however that both Robb and the Blackfish didn't like it and that Catelyn had a bad feeling about this plan.

[MarcherLord]

The only thing Edmure failed in was not standing up to Robb and the Blackfish's bullshit blame-game. I can understand why they'd be frustrated when they lost the chance to unleash their plan but if anyone deserved blame it was them for not letting one of their high commanders in on the secret - especially when Edmure's part in the plan was so crucial to its success.

Edmure was ordered to hold Riverrun and he held it. He held it AND won a victory over enemy forces on his doorstep.

It was a shame that their great plan never bore fruit but it was certainly not Edmure's fault when it didn't.

[MarcherLord]

We know for a fact however that both Robb and the Blackfish didn't like it and that Catelyn had a bad feeling about this plan.

Of course they didn't like it - they were in on the plan. The only reason Cat didn't like the idea was because she doubted Edmure's ability to win on his own (perhaps with good reason) with Robb so far away. Edmure proved her wrong.

[Frey Pie]

I don't think this was a bad move on Tywins part at all. A lord who cannot defend is own people is no lord at all. He has no choice but to face Robb while he is attacking and burning his lands or both his bannermen and the realm starts to fear Tywin Lannister less then they did. This is unacceptable in feudal society especially with the image that Tywin has created of himself.

This is true but most of the Westerlands wasnt going to be taken by Robb. Any of Tywins stronger bannermens castles could probably have held off attacks from Robb. His forces strength is in its mobility so he wont go into siege warfare. If he cant win quickly he has to move on. Now if Lannisport was in trouble id agree, or if Balon Greyjoy wasnt stupid and joined Robb than Tywin would have to return home. But Tywins assumption that he can travel throught the Riverlands, go home, defeat the undefeated Young Wolf and all his forces, return accross the Riverlands again and than hold KL from what he must assume will be Renlys 100,000 men? Surely he must have been mistaken. I highly doubt he can do even a part of this. He was abandoning the capital, his daughter and his King. Without them his legitimacy for starting the war is gone also. The West would have survived but KL wouldnt

But he *doesn't* order it. And while I don't have my books in front of me, my recollection is Robb tells Edmure he *won't* order him to do it. And it isn't like we have to look very far for an example of a Tully who refuses his liege lord's command to marry and sufferes basically no consequences.

I'm not 100% sold on the theory, but given that Robb's orders were as vague as they were, and that no one else in Robb's court - not just as RR - seemed to think the Battle of the Fords was anything but a good victory, the recriminations seemed odd.

Exactly he wont order him. He can order him though and if Edmure refuses Robb could even call treason. He wouldnt but he could. What Edmure did wasnt bad just misguided. He did win a very good victory against Tywin. If the reprecussions hadnt been so grave then everything would have been rosey

[Wales338]

Of course they didn't like it - they were in on the plan. The only reason Cat didn't like the idea was because she doubted Edmure's ability to win on his own (perhaps with good reason) with Robb so far away. Edmure proved her wrong.

I am using them as an example of the only people who we can tell what their true feelings are. The face you show in court around the king and the face you show when he is not there are completely different. It is the same as the "when the king laughs everyone laughs".

I am not denying that it was a good victory, I am however saying that Robb shouldn't be blamed for his uncle overstepping what he has been ordered to do. I do not see Edmure as one of Robb's "high commanders" becasue as we have seen he has horrible commanding skills. I believe that Robbs high commanders are the ones he took west with him and that his uncle was left behind so he wouldn't be shamed (having someone else ordered to hold his own seat), and because he had just enough people to defend his own seat and to not make any strategic mistakes.

[MarcherLord]

I am using them as an example of the only people who we can tell what their true feelings are. The face you show in court around the king and the face you show when he is not there are completely different. It is the same as the "when the king laughs everyone laughs".

I am not denying that it was a good victory, I am however saying that Robb shouldn't be blamed for his uncle overstepping what he has been ordered to do. I do not see Edmure as one of Robb's "high commanders" becasue as we have seen he has horrible commanding skills. I believe that Robbs high commanders are the ones he took west with him and that his uncle was left behind so he wouldn't be shamed (having someone else ordered to hold his own seat), and because he had just enough people to defend his own seat and to not make any strategic mistakes.

I agree with Robb not deserving blame. I, personally, wouldn't blame anyone. I was just annoyed when the Blackfish and Robb played the blame-game against Edmure when the guy followed his orders, was not in one the classified plan that he apparently was a huge part of, and after he had just won a victory over Tywin's forces.

Edmure was the heir to Riverrun before his father died and the Lord of it after. Edmure commanded the bannermen of the Riverlands. How was he not one of Robb's High Commanders?

[Wales338]

I agree with you that no one is to blame but I agree that he deserved the chewing out that he recieved from Robb and the Blackfish. Just becasue you are a powerfull bannermen however doesn't mean that you are a high commander. Is Wyman Manderly one of Robb's high commanders even though he is the largers bannerman in the north?

[Chaircat Meow]

I am not 100% certain that Robb and the Blackfish were being honest with Edmure.

They needed him to marry a Frey girl - picked by Lord Walder - to fix Robb's Jeyne Westerling mess. By convincing Edmure - who isn't the brightest guy in the world - that he made a major military mistake they were able to in effect guilt him into accepting the marriage.

I doubt they were being honest with him either and your theory sounds very plausible.

However, do we know when they settled on the idea of compensating Frey with Edmure for Robb? Would they have formulated that plan before they even got back to RR?

[Chaircat Meow]

I agree with you that no one is to blame but I agree that he deserved the chewing out that he recieved from Robb and the Blackfish. Just becasue you are a powerfull bannermen however doesn't mean that you are a high commander. Is Wyman Manderly one of Robb's high commanders even though he is the largers bannerman in the north?

I think its obvious Edmure is a high commander as a stand in for his father, the LP of the riverlands. Hell, he must have a fair few men to stop Tywin at the fords and he would have more if the riverlords had not dispersed.

Edmure was in charge of all the Tully forces before Robb arrived. It stands to reason he retained this command and also outranked other northern commanders on his own lands, saving the king.

[MarcherLord]

I agree with you that no one is to blame but I agree that he deserved the chewing out that he recieved from Robb and the Blackfish. Just becasue you are a powerfull bannermen however doesn't mean that you are a high commander. Is Wyman Manderly one of Robb's high commanders even though he is the largers bannerman in the north?

Well i still disagree on him deserving a 'chewing out." Edmure followed his orders and held RR. He also went beyond them and risked an open battle which he won. Had Edmure known of the plan and still engaged the lannisters, then would he be to blame.

And yes, Bannermen are the only ones who command the loyalty of their troops, they just owe their loyalty to their liege lord. Manderly (or whoever he sent to the war in his stead, such as his heir), just like Bolton, Umber and Karstark, would be one of Robb's commanders.

[Wales338]

I think its obvious Edmure is a high commander as a stand in for his father, the LP of the riverlands. Hell, he must have a fair few men to stop Tywin at the fords and he would have more if the riverlords had not dispersed.

Edmure was in charge of all the Tully forces before Robb arrived. It stands to reason he retained this command and also outranked other northern commanders on his own lands, saving the king.

Edmure only had 11,000 men compared to Twyins' 20,000 men at the Battle of the Fords. I cannot agree however that Edmure would outrank the northern lords when they have been put there under orders from the King.

It must just be a misunderstand then, because when you say a high commander I picture men like the Blackfish who command Robbs outriders and scouts, or the Greatjon who is like a very trusted righthand man. I picture Edmure however as just a commander becacuse he does not hold the posistions or trust Robb had in these other individuals.

[Frey Pie]

I think its obvious Edmure is a high commander as a stand in for his father, the LP of the riverlands. Hell, he must have a fair few men to stop Tywin at the fords and he would have more if the riverlords had not dispersed.

Edmure was in charge of all the Tully forces before Robb arrived. It stands to reason he retained this command and also outranked other northern commanders on his own lands, saving the king.

He had IIRC 11000 men at the battle. This is why i dont think Tywins plan was ever going to work. They were dispersed but he ordered the banners back to RR when Tywin began his march. I dont think he had a right to ordering Roose around though

Im not saying he was in the wrong just that there was a pretty obviously better plan

[Naathi Prince]

I don't blame Edmure for the battle of the fords. How would anyone know that word reached Lord Tywin in time (after he refused Cersei's requests for soldiers multiple times) for him to get there? How would he know that the Tyrells would oppose Stannis and join with the Lannisters? He saw a chance to spank Tywin and he took it.

[Chaircat Meow]

Edmure only had 11,000 men compared to Twyins' 20,000 men at the Battle of the Fords. I cannot agree however that Edmure would outrank the northern lords when they have been put there under orders from the King.

It must just be a misunderstand then, because when you say a high commander I picture men like the Blackfish who command Robbs outriders and scouts, or the Greatjon who is like a very trusted righthand man. I picture Edmure however as just a commander becacuse he does not hold the posistions or trust Robb had in these other individuals.

Well, Edmure has an independent command and a hell of a lot more men than either the BF or the GJ. On those grounds he is Robb's leading subordinate as far as I can see.

[E-Ro]

I think the problem was robb did not expect edmure to be able to hold off against tywin. I was very suprised when edmure pulled this off and won the battle. Under normal circumstances edmure could have just kept bleeding tywin untill tywin foced himself through taking massive casualties. But stannis attacked kl changing everything, I think robb and bf thought edmure would not be able to hold long enough for someone to attack kl.

[Chaircat Meow]

I don't blame Edmure for the battle of the fords. How would anyone know that word reached Lord Tywin in time (after he refused Cersei's requests for soldiers multiple times) for him to get there? How would he know that the Tyrells would oppose Stannis and join with the Lannisters? He saw a chance to spank Tywin and he took it.

Yeah. Robb tells Ed to hold RR which he does.

Robb then claims that those orders disqualify Edmure from taking any other action, even when he has a chance to bloody Tywin's nose and it seems unfair to interpret them that way. Robb comes across like a petulant boy prepared to allow his subordinate no initiative. Just because you have a set of standing orders doesn't necessarily mean you can't take advantage of opportunities that come your way. If Robb wants to blame Edmure he ought to have told him the plan. I don't even see why Tywin knowing this would have caused problems.

[Wales338]

Becasue if Tywin knows of the trap then he won't fall into the trap. In all honestly, Edmure could have figured this all out if he took half a second to look at a map.

[Chaircat Meow]

I think the problem was robb did not expect edmure to be able to hold off against tywin. I was very suprised when edmure pulled this off and won the battle. Under normal circumstances edmure could have just kept bleeding tywin untill tywin foced himself through taking massive casualties. But stannis attacked kl changing everything, I think robb and bf thought edmure would not be able to hold long enough for someone to attack kl.

I think you are right. We don't know the time frame though. Are we ever told when Tywin disengaged from fighting Edmure, and how close in time this was to news reaching him of Stannis. In other words did Tywin pull back, ultimately, because he needed to go to KL?

[Wales338]

IICR it is mentioned that since Edmure held Tywin up enough it allowed a messanger to arrive from King's Landing informing him of the city's need which led to him returing to KL.