Battle of the Fords

[E-Ro]

They seem to have done fine so far.

Yes, but they did not have an army chasing them. Eventually cavalry becomes slower then infantry. Imo robb was gong to find a marshy muddy area dismount and let the westermen throw themselves at him. Not constantly raid tywins army, tywin has cavalry as well not as many as robb but he still had them and eventually tywin would have caught up to them. Tywin at this point had at best 15,000 men due to all the engagements and forced marches, robb has 6,000 of his best. Those odds are not so bad if robb can use terain to his advantage.

[Frey Pie]

I dont think Tywin could or would ever have taken RR. If Edmure sees the battle is lost most of his men should be able to get past the walls to safety while Tywin is crossing.

The smart thing to do would be leave a good force of men to hold the fords. Give battle, bloody them a little, then when Gregor hits retreat to RR. Tywin thinks the Mountain has won the river. Let him pass RR, link up with Roose and you have well over Tywins number of men. Follow him West at a distance, hammer and anvil

I dont know would Robbs plan have worked without Edmure and Roose. How many men did he have? I have no doubt Tywin would lose more men than Robb but he could win that battle

[E-Ro]

I don't think this is exactly what the BF says actually and two victories, owing to the element of surprise, aren't going to make anyone fearless.

There is no such thing as a fearless man. But the mens morale would be super high, while the lannisters would be very low. They love robb, tywins men dont love him they respect and fear him.

[Naathi Prince]

I don't think this is exactly what the BF says actually and two victories, owing to the element of surprise, aren't going to make anyone fearless.

Regardless, the plan did not involve sandwiching Tywin between Robb and Edmure and coordinating these two hosts for victory, which is what I was saying.

Two victories against huge odds, the second one after finding a secret pathway? These guys may as well be waving "I believe in Robb Stark" flags.

[E-Ro]

I dont know would Robbs plan have worked without Edmure and Roose. How many men did he have? I have no doubt Tywin would lose more men than Robb but he could win that battle

With favorable ground it would have worked. Find a muddy area and let tywin charge you again and again. When the mountain dies tywins army will take a massive morale hit.

[Blackfish Tully]

Indeed. Not only had it not backfired, Edmure won a serious victory over the Lannister forces ravaging his lands and people on his doorstep. I was so glad that Cat's naggy BS was thrown back in her face in the end. It's a shame the Blackfish and Robb had to bring Edmure down with their uncalled for blame-game.

Don't forget that because of Edmure's action Tywin Lannister was able to link up with the Tyrells and crush Stannis at Kings Landing. Whether or not he should have been told of the plan does not really matter. Edmure is the Lord of Riverrun and he made a decision to attack the Lannisters and he needs to be held responsible for the results of that decision. It's no different then Robb Stark decision to marry Jeyne Westerling , that decision helped cause the loss of the war and Robb has to be held responsible for it.

[E-Ro]

Two victories against huge odds, the second one after finding a secret pathway? These guys may as well be waving "I believe in Robb Stark" flags.

There were more then two, the camps and numerous fights in the west and castles taken. Ashemark, the crag and I cant remeber any others.

[King Aerys the Just]

With favorable ground it would have worked. Find a muddy area and let tywin charge you again and again. When the mountain dies tywins army will take a massive morale hit.

What happens if Tywin dismounts all his men as well? I don't think he is as stupid as the french at Agincourt.

Also he is the one with the archers and other ranged weapons, Robb might well have been the one forced to charge.

[Frey Pie]

Meh, Jaime sure didn't manage to crack the castle and he had a decent amount of time. Also if Robb had returned from the Westerlands while Tywin's army was spread out in siegeworks on the three riverbanks he could basically have repeated his earlier victory there.

Well it is a risk, but Robb's entire plan for beating Tywin was a huge gamble anyway. I doubt it would have worked even if Edmure had let Tywin pass. Also shouldn't he have planned that before he entered the Westerlands anyway? What was his point of going for the Golden Tooth instead of Harrenhal if not to eventually force Tywin to follow?

I believe he and Brynden planned it out while still in Riverrun, or else they are even worse commanders than I thought, since they would have taken the best warriors away from the war in the Riverlands without even having anything planned for them except torching some villages.

I dont see it as a gamble at all. He has Tywin outnumbered but Tywin is entrenched in Harrenhal and cant be taken. Once KL falls Tywin is doomed. Robb needs him to come out, get him away from KL. So he brings a small part of his force, finds a path west and begins to hit Tywin where it hurts. Hes taking supplies, castles and the Greatjon has taken gold mines. They are weighed down with loot, fat and happy, while the West is demoralised. However they cant take CR so they need to beat Tywin on the field. Tywin, mistakenly, marches west. Away from where he needs to be. If KL doesnt fall Tywins still a player, this is part of what Edmure misses.

In any case, Robbs situation was win win. If he doesnt want to battle Tywin, he can retreat back to the Riverlands, which he can fortify and wont be taken again from the West. If he wants to give battle he has a place set out for the purpose.

[E-Ro]

What happens if Tywin dismounts all his men as well? I don't think he is as stupid as the french at Agincourt.

Also he is the one with the archers and ranged weapons.

Then they slogg through the mud at robbs men and when they are bogged down robb goes out and kills them. This is exactly what happened at agincourt arrows did not play the role originally thought. The plan would work without archers.

[Chaircat Meow]

Yes, but they did not have an army chasing them. Eventually cavalry becomes slower then infantry. Imo robb was gong to find a marshy muddy area dismount and let the westermen throw themselves at him. Not constantly raid tywins army, tywin has cavalry as well not as many as robb but he still had them and eventually tywin would have caught up to them. Tywin at this point had at best 15,000 men due to all the engagements and forced marches, robb has 6,000 of his best. Those odds are not so bad if robb can use terain to his advantage.

In the west Tywin stills holds the vast majority of the castles. He is in the perfect place to resupply and strengthen his army.

I also thought there was always something a bit weird about the BF putting faith on his knowledge of the terrain. If anyone knows the westerlands it will be the westerlings. Tywin isn't going to be easy to fool on his own turf.

[Victor227]

Edmure followed his orders to the letter. Hold Riverrun. When Tywin started marching west, Riverrun and all the lands around it were threatened. Rather than risk a siege flat out, he found a spot where he would have an amazing strategic advantage (a good river can be tougher to cross than a castle wall in some cases) and he managed to beat Tywin without even forfeiting the advantage in mobility by becoming besieged.

In terms of flat-out defending Riverrun, he saw an enemy coming that would threaten both Riverrun and Robb's forces in the west, found an ideal spot to defeat it, and did so. He still had the option of falling back to Riverrun if things went south, and bleeding his opponent in the process to make a siege harder.

It was a good plan, he was following his orders, and it was Robb and the Blackfish's fault for not telling him the bloody campaign strategy behind closed-doors. Everyone assumes Edmure is a useless fool, and treat him like it. So it seems they outright based their plan around it. And he should be blamed for acting like a competent leader?

[Frey Pie]

With favorable ground it would have worked. Find a muddy area and let tywin charge you again and again. When the mountain dies tywins army will take a massive morale hit.

I actually dont know how he survived at the Fords. He made it accross under serious arrow fire, got sent back in i assume horseless and in full armour and somehow got back accross? The Trident is supposed to be huge. He should be dead from arrows and spears, or if not drowning

Did Robb have 6000 men with him? If so the odds are better i agree. For some reason i had 3500 in my head

[Chaircat Meow]

Two victories against huge odds, the second one after finding a secret pathway? These guys may as well be waving "I believe in Robb Stark" flags.

Oxcross was 6,000 of Robb's best against 10,000 or so untrained levies commanded by a dullard. Real amazing. If Tywin had won it he would get no credit but because it the young wolf its Fucking Amazing.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Battle_of_Oxcross

[Victor227]

I actually dont know how he survived at the Fords. He made it accross under serious arrow fire, got sent back in i assume horseless and in full armour and somehow got back accross? The Trident is supposed to be huge. He should be dead from arrows and spears, or if not drowning

Gregor Clegane is a vicious force of nature. He's pretty much super-human. Even with his size, he was still wounded when he fought Oberyn, and the dose of poison he had should have kept him writhing in agony until he suffered a painful death.

[Frey Pie]

In the west Tywin stills holds the vast majority of the castles. He is in the perfect place to resupply and strengthen his army.

I also thought there was always something a bit weird about the BF putting faith on his knowledge of the terrain. If anyone knows the westerlands it will be the westerlings. Tywin isn't going to be easy to fool on his own turf.

Robbs forces are bolstered with plunder. I would say they are in a great state and should have many remounts each. I agree with your assessment here though.Playing at hide and seek in another persons back garden seems dodgy. This is where i think their plan may have fallen down

Not that it would matter for the Lannisters because Stannis would be sitting pretty on the throne

[Frey Pie]

Gregor Clegane is a vicious force of nature. He's pretty much super-human. Even with his size, he was still wounded when he fought Oberyn, and the dose of poison he had should have kept him writhing in agony until he suffered a painful death.

True. Perhaps he would have won the battle for Tywin...

[King Aerys the Just]

I dont see it as a gamble at all. He has Tywin outnumbered but Tywin is entrenched in Harrenhal and cant be taken. Once KL falls Tywin is doomed. Robb needs him to come out, get him away from KL. So he brings a small part of his force, finds a path west and begins to hit Tywin where it hurts. Hes taking supplies, castles and the Greatjon has taken gold mines. They are weighed down with loot, fat and happy, while the West is demoralised. However they cant take CR so they need to beat Tywin on the field. Tywin, mistakenly, marches west. Away from where he needs to be. If KL doesnt fall Tywins still a player, this is part of what Edmure misses.

In any case, Robbs situation was win win. If he doesnt want to battle Tywin, he can retreat back to the Riverlands, which he can fortify and wont be taken again from the West. If he wants to give battle he has a place set out for the purpose.

Ah, I meant his plan to defeat Tywin in a pitched battle, not his overall strategy. That one was clever enough (if he actually planned it out beforehand) though it still relied on taking a very strong castle very quickly and easily, with an all mounted army...

Luckily the magic puppy helped him out there.

[E-Ro]

In the west Tywin stills holds the vast majority of the castles. He is in the perfect place to resupply and strengthen his army.

I also thought there was always something a bit weird about the BF putting faith on his knowledge of the terrain. If anyone knows the westerlands it will be the westerlings. Tywin isn't going to be easy to fool on his own turf.

Resupply yes, but strengthen? Does the west have many fighting men left? Regarding bf in west The thing was tywin would have to attack them becaus they were burning the west. The bf says this to edmure when they get back, that if tywin did not attack them they would continue to steal his food and gold and live off the west he would have no choice but to engage them even if it was on unfavorable ground.

I actually dont know how he survived at the Fords. He made it accross under serious arrow fire, got sent back in i assume horseless and in full armour and somehow got back accross? The Trident is supposed to be huge. He should be dead from arrows and spears, or if not drowning

Plot armor, the best armor there is.

Oxcross was 6,000 of Robb's best against 10,000 or so untrained levies commanded by a dullard. Real amazing. If Tywin had won it he would get no credit but because it the young wolf its Fucking Amazing.

http://awoiaf.wester...ttle_of_Oxcross

Tywin gets credit for butchering two of his bannermen with the might of the west, why would no one give him credit for destroying 10,000 men with 6,000?

[Frey Pie]

Oxcross was 6,000 of Robb's best against 10,000 or so untrained levies commanded by a dullard. Real amazing. If Tywin had won it he would get no credit but because it the young wolf its Fucking Amazing.

http://awoiaf.wester...ttle_of_Oxcross

I think thats a lil unfair to say. If the boot was on the other leg id give Tywin credit where its due. Your right it was more of a route than a battle but it was still hugely significant. Tywin was waiting for these reinforcements which was badly needed. Robb took the intiative and destroyed them before they became a force to be reckoned with. It was good strategy