Battle of the Fords

[Chaircat Meow]

Robb had to go West. He needed to destroy the Lannister Reserve before they could link up with Tywin and put pressure on Tywin's bannermen. If not for Stannis' invasion of blackwater, Tywin would have gone west to protect his bannermen and Lannisport. Robb Stark lost because Balon Greyjoy is an ass.

A quick surgical strike would have sufficed for that. He need not stay there long.

[Naathi Prince]

A quick surgical strike would have sufficed for that. He need not stay there long.

Try convincing your bannermen not to plunder the rich westerlands

[Chaircat Meow]

Try convincing your bannermen not to plunder the rich westerlands

Well, if Robb is letting desire for plunder drive his whole strategy he's actually a pretty poor general. I don't think he was mind you, but this is not a good defence.

[E-Ro]

This is pretty much the shit.

IIRC Tywin goes west when he hears Stannis is occupied at SE and believes the siege gives him enough time to deal with Robb. Saving Mel's first shadownbaby and the obstinacy of Penrose, Robb's plan wouldn't have even come close to working.

This right here is silly, if there is no shadowbaby renly kills stannis and takes kl. The shadowbaby benefitted tywin more then anyone else. And ok robbs grand strategy was flawed, but so was tywins. He attacks the riverlands who are allied with the vale and north and allows himself to get boged down in the riverlnads while the tyrells march on kl. At least robb had a grand stratgey witch is more than can be said for tywin. His goal is to keep joff on the throne, how is he going to do this with the riverlords and northmen fighting him? Tywin got super lucky, and indeed it can be said the lannisters lucked through the war.

[Frey Pie]

Bran huge oversight saying that Robb lucked out with the Shadow Baby. The fact is without the Shadow Baby Tywin loses, without the Tyrells Tywin loses, without Balon Greyjoy Tywin loses, without Edmure, even with all the others iv mentioned before, Tywin more than likely loses.

Robbs strategy wasnt flawed. Its stated clearly in the text that they couldnt keep their forces together. Robbs wanted war and revenge, Edmures wanted to disperse to their homes. Robb took action which was working and would have likely ended with the fall of House Lannister

[E-Ro]

Bran huge oversight saying that Robb lucked out with the Shadow Baby. The fact is without the Shadow Baby Tywin loses, without the Tyrells Tywin loses, without Balon Greyjoy Tywin loses, without Edmure, even with all the others iv mentioned before, Tywin more than likely loses.

Robbs strategy wasnt flawed. Its stated clearly in the text that they couldnt keep their forces together. Robbs wanted war and revenge, Edmures wanted to disperse to their homes. Robb took action which was working and would have likely ended with the fall of House Lannister

Agreed saying the shadowbaby benefited robb is, well, ugh.

[E-Ro]

Furthermore I find it fascinating how you can critiscise robbs victories for being based on suprise yet at the same time praise tywins victories that are all based on numerical superiority. At least suprise takes some skill. Tywin has never won a battle were he has not outnumbered the enemy by alot.

[Chaircat Meow]

This right here is silly, if there is no shadowbaby renly kills stannis and takes kl. The shadowbaby benefitted tywin more then anyone else. And ok robbs grand strategy was flawed, but so was tywins. He attacks the riverlands who are allied with the vale and north and allows himself to get boged down in the riverlnads while the tyrells march on kl. At least robb had a grand stratgey witch is more than can be said for tywin. His goal is to keep joff on the throne, how is he going to do this with the riverlords and northmen fighting him? Tywin got super lucky, and indeed it can be said the lannisters lucked through the war.

What part of the proposition that Robb's plan would have failed if Renly had not been bumped off do you disagree with?

[Frey Pie]

What part of the proposition that Robb's plan would have failed if Renly had not been bumped off do you disagree with?

Because if Renly had not been bumped off he probably would have beaten Stannis. Never the less it would have taken time for him to travel to KL. Time in which Tywin was forcing his way home. If it wasnt Stannis ouutside the gates of KL it would be Renly. Renly with 80000-100000 men, well armed and armoured. KL is gone, so is Tywin. If Renly hadnt been killed it would probably have gone better for Robb

[Naathi Prince]

Well, if Robb is letting desire for plunder drive his whole strategy he's actually a pretty poor general. I don't think he was mind you, but this is not a good defence.

part of the purpose of fighting period is to gain plunder.

[E-Ro]

What part of the proposition that Robb's plan would have failed if Renly had not been bumped off do you disagree with?

All of it, renly would have marched in taken kl executed every lannister in the city. The moment this happens tywin has well and truly lost. Do you really think he would continue to fight robb? Or would he tell robb to gtfo and they would part without fighting to preserve strength against the tyrells? Its even possible the two might ally to stop renly. No way tywin bends the knee to renly after the sack of kl. Robb gets his revenge on joff, renly becomes king of the south and tywin can either declare himself king of the west or swear fealty to renly. The point is tywin is a sensible person if kl is sacked he would most likely stop all fighting with robb so long as robb leaves his lands. He might not have beaten tywin directly in the field, but he will have walked away having accomplished his goals namely the death of jof and the independence of north and river. It would be interesting to read about this an alliance between tywin and robb would be all levels of amazing. But still, no shadowbaby and tywin is forced to sue for peace with robb or bend to renly to get revenge on him. I strongly feel tywin would not bend to renly after a sack of kl.

Bran the cute I usually agree with you, but on this I have to disagree, shadowbaby benefits tywin immensly.

[Scipio Africanus]

Because if Renly had not been bumped off he probably would have beaten Stannis. Never the less it would have taken time for him to travel to KL. Time in which Tywin was forcing his way home. If it wasnt Stannis ouutside the gates of KL it would be Renly. Renly with 80000-100000 men, well armed and armoured. KL is gone, so is Tywin. If Renly hadnt been killed it would probably have gone better for Robb

Yeah as discussed in another thread I'm really doubting those numbers Rently had. 80000 men is a lot of troops and those kind of numbers were uncommon in any part of the world to the French revolutionairy wars at the end of the 18th century.

Shadowbaby benifited Stan and Tywin inmensely. It dispersed Rently's so-called 80000 who then basically sought a new overlord. Step in Tywin. However none of it was any of Tywin's doing. As usual he lucked out and is consequently praised by the forum community.

[Naathi Prince]

wait, people are arguing the shadowbaby was good for Robb? How? He had a deal with Renly. Renly beats Stannis, his 80,000 men are down to 65,000. Renly takes KL, his men are down even more.

[Chaircat Meow]

All of it, renly would have marched in taken kl executed every lannister in the city. The moment this happens tywin has well and truly lost. Do you really think he would continue to fight robb? Or would he tell robb to gtfo and they would part without fighting to preserve strength against the tyrells? Its even possible the two might ally to stop renly. No way tywin bends the knee to renly after the sack of kl. Robb gets his revenge on joff, renly becomes king of the south and tywin can either declare himself king of the west or swear fealty to renly. The point is tywin is a sensible person if kl is sacked he would most likely stop all fighting with robb so long as robb leaves his lands. He might not have beaten tywin directly in the field, but he will have walked away having accomplished his goals namely the death of jof and the independence of north and river. It would be interesting to read about this an alliance between tywin and robb would be all levels of amazing. But still, no shadowbaby and tywin is forced to sue for peace with robb or bend to renly to get revenge on him. I strongly feel tywin would not bend to renly after a sack of kl.

Bran the cute I usually agree with you, but on this I have to disagree, shadowbaby benefits tywin immensly.

The point is this. Robb hopes to draw Tywin west by attacking his own lands. He does this because he does not want to attack HH. It is said repeatedly, by Cat, Bran and others that the war is not done until Tywin and his army are defeated. Tywin didn't fall for the bait though, he moved when he had reason to believe the south had been temporarily neutralized because of the first shadowbaby. Robb did not take this into his calculations, so the fact his plan came close to working was nothing to do with him. No Shadowbaby and Tywin would have tried to stop Renly taking KL, which seems to have been his plan all along, and ignored Robb, making his contribution to whatever the outcome of that struggle would have been negligible.

No where have I ever denied that the first shadowbaby was a huge boon for the lannisters. I'm looking at how effective Robb's strategy was and it seems to only come to close to working for reasons beyond his own control.

I'm not arguing Tywin's strategy was good either, just commenting on Robb's.

[Chaircat Meow]

Agreed saying the shadowbaby benefited robb is, well, ugh.

It did in so far as it would have been the reason Tywin went west to face him, which is what Robb wanted.

Overall it benefited the lannisters yeah.

[Chaircat Meow]

Bran huge oversight saying that Robb lucked out with the Shadow Baby. The fact is without the Shadow Baby Tywin loses, without the Tyrells Tywin loses, without Balon Greyjoy Tywin loses, without Edmure, even with all the others iv mentioned before, Tywin more than likely loses.

Robbs strategy wasnt flawed. Its stated clearly in the text that they couldnt keep their forces together. Robbs wanted war and revenge, Edmures wanted to disperse to their homes. Robb took action which was working and would have likely ended with the fall of House Lannister

He couldn't keep his forces together due to lannister raiding apparently, or the threat of it. If he had wanted to march against the raiding army he would have had the full muster of all his banners. He actually does jack shit to stop Tywin's depredations in the riverlands.

My point is that his plan actually wasn't working. Tywin parks his butt at HH because he wants to defend KL from Stan and Ren. He moves when he thinks that threat has receded somewhat, something which Robb was not anticipating as everyone assumed the Baratheon brothers would work together.

[Scipio Africanus]

Tywin didn't fall for the bait though

He basically sat on his ass and refused to take the initiative. You can argue that he didn't need to, but the fact of the matter is (if you look on a map) he was basically seperated from his western army (he being the eastern army) and his homelands. You can then argue that his western army could keep Robb busy while he made his move with his eastern army to swat Robb. However, as both Union and Confederate sides found out at the Bermuda hundred (the area near Petersburg) in 1864, if you get an army "bottled up" with rivers covering the flanks it is near impossible (without airpower) to dislodge a relatively small force. In other words no matter how big Tywin's army got, considering the layout of the land and that the lands were already pillaged (and Robb holding interior lines of supply while Tywin's armies had to draw supplies from a long line), Robb could've held out with an inferior force for a very long time.

Not to mention Tywin's eastern army also doubling as protection from KL. So if either Stan or Rently beat each other he would've been racing to KL at any rate, depleting his numerical advantage. Also, I very much believe his western army was inferior (this was proven at Oxcross I believe and poorly commanded).

Tywin chose the easy route and the only reason he "won" was because he lucked out with Stan and Mel's shadowbaby.

[Frey Pie]

Yeah as discussed in another thread I'm really doubting those numbers Rently had. 80000 men is a lot of troops and those kind of numbers were uncommon in any part of the world to the French revolutionairy wars at the end of the 18th century.

Renly says he has that ammount so im inclined to believe him. I know that he shouldnt be able to have so many but its a fantasy story, everythings bigger and better

[King Aerys the Just]

He couldn't keep his forces together due to lannister raiding apparently, or the threat of it. If he had wanted to march against the raiding army he would have had the full muster of all his banners. He actually does jack shit to stop Tywin's depredations in the riverlands.

My point is that his plan actually wasn't working. Tywin parks his butt at HH because he wants to defend KL from Stan and Ren. He moves when he thinks that threat has receded somewhat, something which Robb was not anticipating as everyone assumed the Baratheon brothers would work together.

Yup. If the shadowbaby hadn't killed Renly it's not entirely impossible that Tywin would be able to defeat him and his army at King's Landing either. He would have something like 30 000 men against Renly's 70 000 or so. Hard odds numerically, but Tywin would have the fortified advantage, and Renly always gave me the impression of being a piss-poor general in comparison to Tywin. Loved by his men, but extremely arrogant, naive and lazy. So it's possible that Tywin could simply have won there, and then taken his army + the Baratheon scraps to finish off Robb's brave six thousand raping and pillaging the Westerlands. He would have lost a lot of wealth and people at home during the time he was dealing with Renly, but victory could still have been his in the end.

[Chaircat Meow]

He basically sat on his ass and refused to take the initiative. You can argue that he didn't need to, but the fact of the matter is (if you look on a map) he was basically seperated from his western army (he being the eastern army) and his homelands. You can then argue that his western army could keep Robb busy while he made his move with his eastern army to swat Robb. However, as both Union and Confederate sides found out at the Bermuda hundred (the area near Petersburg) in 1864, if you get an army "bottled up" with rivers covering the flanks it is near impossible (without airpower) to dislodge a relatively small force. In other words no matter how big Tywin's army got, considering the layout of the land and that the lands were already pillaged (and Robb holding interior lines of supply while Tywin's armies had to draw supplies from a long line), Robb could've held out with an inferior force for a very long time.

Not to mention Tywin's eastern army also doubling as protection from KL. So if either Stan or Rently beat each other he would've been racing to KL at any rate, depleting his numerical advantage. Also, I very much believe his western army was inferior (this was proven at Oxcross I believe and poorly commanded).

Tywin chose the easy route and the only reason he "won" was because he lucked out with Stan and Mel's shadowbaby.

I don't understand this post.

He's waiting at HH to protect KL and also so Robb will attack him there.

He thinks Robb can't get into the westerlands but hadn't taken into account his preternatural sniffer dog. He only moves west after news of Oxcross, when he had few forces in the west left. Robb wants Tywin to get back to the west where he hopes to defeat him with 6,000 horse. No rivers involved.

I'm fully aware his western army was crap. I said so in this thread. I realize Robb is sitting in between him and the west thanks. Not sure what you're trying to tell me here.