Mormonts Raven-a re-read

[setmyheartafire]

When the King passage occurs, I never read it any other way than Mormont continued to stare at Jon as he reached up to pet the raven.

Mostly because I don't think the raven was ever issued a gender pronoun... If the raven were staring, "its" eyes wouldn't have left Jon.

I've been trying to figure out what the Raven is trying to say since I picked up GoT.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

When the King passage occurs, I never read it any other way than Mormont continued to stare at Jon as he reached up to pet the raven.

Mostly because I don't think the raven was ever issued a gender pronoun... If the raven were staring, "its" eyes wouldn't have left Jon.

I've been trying to figure out what the Raven is trying to say since I picked up GoT.

This has been kind of a contentious issue, whose eyes were on Jon. I'm thinking that even if they were Mormont's, his eyes on Jon is an indication that he finds something "off" about the whole thing or about the raven's behavior.

I get the impression that the raven suddenly gets more ... talkactive ... after Jon arrives. Like he might say "corn" here and there normally, but maybe he's never said "king" or "snow" before. If Mormont notices that this bird's speaking more and/or using words it hasn't used before, especially in Jon's presence, he might be noticing a correlation there. In any case, no matter whose eyes they are, the emphatic point is that they're on Jon — the focus of that sequence, what we're left with, is Jon.

[Old-Growth]

Agreed about the focus of attention by the raven being on Jon, but that is still not more than a hint: a much more explicit affirmation is coming in the penultimate Jon POV in Dance, may I remind you.

[Stannis the Wight]

I'm sure someone else has already said this but Mormont's raven is one of Bloodraven's flock. It's pretty easy to figure this out once we find out about BR. He's keeping an eye on Jonny boy

[redriver]

I can't definitely say that the bird is being warged by Bloodraven at this stage.The best evidence is the foreshadowing in The Mystery Knight that we highlighted backthread,but it's hardly conclusive,just a pointer,maybe.

I can't pick up anything that the raven says that links it to BR specifically,other than a general sense that the bird somehow knows more about what is going on than the human characters it interacts with.

Part of me wants this bird to be an omniscient entity in it's own right,though on the original read I felt the bird upped it's game in ADWD,and that it was warged by BR,at least on an occasional basis.

But rereading the corvid is a joy,because it never fails to please in some way,whatever or whoever it is.

[redriver]

Well this is R+L=J thread territory.

But going solely on the bird (as he is the word)...there's an early CoK chapter where Mormont's Raven cries "king" several times while looking straight at Jon (that is how I interpet the scene).

Whomever is warging the bird at the time, he seems to think Jon is a king.

King crops up several times in connection with Jon,maybe 5 or 6 in the series.

Always king,never prince.

What do we make of that?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

King crops up several times in connection with Jon,maybe 5 or 6 in the series.

Always king,never prince.

What do we make of that?

If Jon is the legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, he'd be a king and not a prince. That's what I make of it — it's further circumstantial evidence that Jon's the legitimate Targ heir.

[redriver]

If Jon is the legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, he'd be a king and not a prince. That's what I make of it — it's further circumstantial evidence that Jon's the legitimate Targ heir.

Is he legitimate if Rhaegar was married to Elia at the time?I know the Targs had rules of their own,including poygamy but would this be considered legit in current Westeros,even if proven undeniably?

This is not my area of expertise ,I confess.

[kephv]

If he married Lyanna, then yes, he is legitimate. He'd just be behind Aegon in the line of succession.

[redriver]

If he married Lyanna, then yes, he is legitimate. He'd just be behind Aegon in the line of succession.

Technical questions aside,I think Jon is going to be too involved in the Ice/Fire battle for these to matter for some while.

And the are other Kingships up for grabs.King beyond the Wall.King of Winter,King in the North,Night's King......and Others.

Any are possible,but ostensibly I see Jon as devolved from the Littlefinger/Varys kind of politics,and more a key player in the Others v Dragons conflict,which is inevitable.

[The Fallen]

` Jon is the dragon at the Wall.

Regarding his possible claim to the Iron Throne, I can't see it myself. Even if he's Rheagar's son and Lyanna had become Rheagar's second wife, it was never publicly announced. So he can be just as fake as Aegon to the rest of Westeros. The only way I see him being touted as King is if there are more Targ loyalists than I've seen evidence for and Aegon gets taken out, leaving a void that can be filled by Jon once his "origins story" gets out. This also assumes that Dany is out of the picture, because lets face it, he/she who has dragons has the right.

[Scipio Africanus]

This also assumes that Dany is out of the picture, because lets face it, he/she who has dragons has the right.

Who says Jon or another won't get a dragon? All Stark kids plus Jon Snow have warging abilities (at least, rudimentary). Who knows if one of 'em can warg a dragon too. And maybe someone else shows up with a dragon's horn or something.

No Dany just having dragons alone won't cut the deal I think.

I get the impression that the raven suddenly gets more ... talkactive ... after Jon arrives.

He seems talkative in Tyrion's and Sam's POVs as well. It's not just when Jon is around it starts yapping. However whomever is warging the bird seems mostly interested in Jon Snow.

[redriver]

We find Sam and other NW stragglers,including the raven have reached Craster's Keep and sought refuge there from a less than welcoming host.

Several of the watch are dying from want of food,many are weak with hunger,yet Craster is not only stingy with the food,he resents having "crows" in his keep at all-"When did a black bird ever bring good to a man's hall,I ask you?Never,never."

Mormont's Raven remains silent on this issue,but no doubt it heard and took note!

The food issue,Sam notes,is a source of increasing tension between Craster and the Watch men.The Watch are muttering about Craster's meanness,Craster's hands "twitched a little,as if they wanted to curl up into fists," whenever he looked Sam's way.

Although this apparent emnity may have been reinforced by the sounds of the labour pains of "Craster's wife" giving birth up in the loft.

As Sam listens to the sounds of the birth,he prays that the baby is female,because he recalls what happens to the males,"Craster gave his sons to the gods."But then he hears "Another push now.Oh,I see his head. "Hers,Sam thought miserably.Her head,hers."

It's a boy!

Sam tires of the poisonous atmosphere of the keep,and steps outside into the bright afternoon.He ponders on the fact that there have been no Other/Wight attacks on the Keep and remembers Craster's words,"You best get right with the gods."

Which gods though?

Amidst teasing references to Sam as the Slayer from his brethren,Sam recalls Mormont's sudden interest in obsidian,and his distribution of the remaining pieces amongst the Watch.

Sam is pondering on what Jon would have done in his shoes,and pining for some nice hot food,when he hears,-"Snow."Sam glanced up at the sound.Lord Commander Mormont's raven was circling the fire,beating the air with wide black wings"

"Snow,"the bird cawed."Snow,snow."

This might be a warning of bad things to come,and there are.But maybe an acknowledgement of Sam,who taught the other ravens the word snow.

Mormont makes it clear that the watch have to leave the Keep and make for the Wall.He spies Sam and bellows,"Tarly!"

"Me?" Sam got awkwardly to his feet.

"Me?"The raven landed on the old man's head."Me?"

Mormont discusses the dragonglass with Sam,who mentions that the Children of the Forest would know where to find it.Mormont,sadly replies that the COTF are all dead.

Craster interrupts the conversation with the news that he has a son.

"Son," cawed Mormont's raven."Son,son,son."

.Sam makes the ill advised suggestion that the Watch would be happy to take the son,much to the displeasure of Mormont and Craster both.

Back to the raven screaming "son".Is that a rejoicing in the good news or a warning about the sons?

Back inside the keep,there is more discontent with Craster,Bannen is dead with the Watchmen blaming Craster for not feeding him.They burn him in a ceremony led by Mormont which ends with,"now his watch is ended."

"Ended," cried his raven."Ended."

Ed tells Sam that the Watch will leave in the morning,"sun or snow",perhaps he meant,"son or snow"?.

Craster,revelling in the news announces a "feast".However,at the feast the watch are served their own horse and two loaves of bread.A row ensues in which some watchmen insist Craster has a hidden larder.

"Corn.Corn.Corn."Comes a helpful contribution in the middle of it all.

Carnage ensues during which Craster is killed,and later Mormont is stabbed by Ollo Lophand.

As Sam cradles the head of the dying Mormont,the Old Bear tells Sam to,"Make for the Wall now."

"Now," squawked the raven."Now.Now."The bird walked up the old man's arm to his chest,and plucked a hair from his beard.

As well as the obvious imperative for Sam to get out of Dodge now,the bird plucking a hair from Mormont's face seems poignant too.He goes on to implore Sam to tell the Watch everything about the Fist and the Dragonglass,and finally to tell Jorah to take the Black."My wish.Dying wish."

"Wish?" The raven cocked it's beady black eyes shining."Corn?" the bird asked.

Gulp.Mormont is gone.As the three Craster wives point out.

"Mormont's head was still in his lap,but his eyes were open and staring and his lips no longer moved.The raven cocked it's head and squawked,then looked up at Sam."Corn?".

In Disneyland this is a sad raven asking for confirmation that it's beloved owner id dead.In Martin world,this is raven speak for "he's dead so I might as well eat him."

The elderly wives advise Sam to flee with Gilly."Take the girl and be quick about it."

"Quick," the raven said."Quick,quick,quick."

Gilly pleads,"If you don't take him they will.

"They?" said Sam,and the raven cocked it's black head and echoed,

"They,they,they."

"The boy's brothers,....Craster's sons.The white cold's rising out there,crow.I can feel it in my bones.These poor old bones don't lie.They'll be here soon ,the sons."

Back to "ended" as said by the raven,echoing Mormont's words about the words about the dead NW man.And maybe foreshadowing Mormont's end too.But could it be foreshadowing the end of the Watch itself?

In reality,an order that is supposed to uphold all that is sacred to the old gods has desecrated guest rights and assassinated it's Lord Commander.Has the integrity Night's Watch,or the vestiges of what it once was perished here?Has the bird got it right.

There is a lot to be taken in in this chapter.Your help appreciated.

One more wrinkle.The idea has been circulating in the Heresy threads that the raven may be an avatar of the old gods,based on the Morrigan of Celtic lore.As such,not warged,but an entity somewhat above Bloodraven in the food chain.

Thoughts?

ETA I have further thoughts on this chapter,but the post is long enough and hopefully we'll get some more ideas out through discussion.

[Little Wing]

Sam is pondering on what Jon would have done in his shoes,and pining for some nice hot food,when he hears,-"Snow."Sam glanced up at the sound.Lord Commander Mormont's raven was circling the fire,beating the air with wide black wings"

Didn't catch this one, but then it's been a while since I've read it... The bird read Sam's mind? Knew Sam was thinking of Jon and cried "Snow"?

Also, Mormont knew Craster's boys were coming, he didn't say "Make for the Wall now" for nothing... how did he know, though? I wonder if a certain bird "told" him...

[The Mountain That Posts]

I haven't read this whole thread but has anyone, you know, considered the possibility that the Raven could just be a mystery/creepy element that is never explored... let alone explained?

Like everyone's being all WHAT IF MORMONT WARGED INTO IT, OR BENJEN, OR BLOODRAVEN, OR BRAN. Or people are being like WHAT IF IT HAS THE CHILDREN OF THE FOREST IN IT'S BRAIN.

What if, and just role with me here, the Raven is never explained in the slightest and it's just meant to throw readers off and overall is all just coincidences combined with a smart bird? I'm thinking like the numbers in Lost, they never explained those either. (but the main difference there, is that the characters in Lost were just as confused by the numbers as the audience. In ASOIAF, no character seems particularly confused by Mormont's bird)

Thoughts?

[redriver]

I haven't read this whole thread but has anyone, you know, considered the possibility that the Raven could just be a mystery/creepy element that is never explored... let alone explained?

Like everyone's being all WHAT IF MORMONT WARGED INTO IT, OR BENJEN, OR BLOODRAVEN, OR BRAN. Or people are being like WHAT IF IT HAS THE CHILDREN OF THE FOREST IN IT'S BRAIN.

What if, and just role with me here, the Raven is never explained in the slightest and it's just meant to throw readers off and overall is all just coincidences combined with a smart bird? I'm thinking like the numbers in Lost, they never explained those either. (but the main difference there, is that the characters in Lost were just as confused by the numbers as the audience. In ASOIAF, no character seems particularly confused by Mormont's bird)

Thoughts?

This is one of the possibilities we are exploring in doing the reread.The bird may never be explained as such.

Most seem to feel it's warged by Bloodraven,but so far there is no hard evidence to support it.

In fact,this is I think the only chapter where the bird uses a word that Bloodraven utters in the books-quick.

No sort of proof,of course,so all options are open.All we know is the bird seems to be more aware of threats than the humans it interacts with.

That aside,it doesn't really eat Mormont's face.Just plucks a strand of beard?

[The Mountain That Posts]

I feel like the faceless man in A Clash of Kings and Mormont's raven are the two, and so far only two, things that most likely won't be explained in the slightest.

In b4 BUT IT'S THE FACELESS MAN IN OLDTOWN. I think that's just a coincidence, there's a definite possibility that the one in oldtown is a different person. I think it'd be kind of lame if they brought Jagen back, in anyway. His role in the story is over IMO.

But that's off track. Anywho, at the end of this, someone should make a huge blog post or something - easier to manage than going through all 16+ pages of a thread.

[redriver]

I do a summary after each book.The thread isn't a hard read anyway,very few lengthy posts.

And the raven is usually entertaining,if not provident.

[redriver]

I wonder if Sam will ever meet Jorah Mormont to pass on his father's dying wish?

It would make for an interesting conversation.Oldtown seems a likely landing place for Dany,if she ever gets round to reaching Westeros.

[The Mountain That Posts]

Has Samwell even so much as THOUGHT of the Lord Commander's dying words post-that ASoS chapter?

I feel like one major flaw with GRRM's writing style is that he doesn't give his characters enough thoughts into recent events/conversations. The only real exception to this is Jaime's obsession with Tyrion's words about Cersei fucking Lancel and one of the Kettleblacks and "moonboy too".

And yeah, I plan on reading the whole thread eventually.