Mormonts Raven-a re-read

[redriver]

I doubt he's thought about it much,but it isn't really necessary until or unless he meets Jorah.

But I think Mormont's last words suggest he will.In Oldtown to be specific.

[The Mountain That Posts]

That is, of course, to suggest that Jorah somehow makes it to Oldtown. I can't see that happening.

I feel like it's more likely that the Ironmen are going to attack Oldtown somehow, and Samwell will have arrived in Oldtown as soon as it's necessary to evacuate. There's no doubt that Sam and Jorah will meet, but I don't believe it'll be in Oldtown specifically.

Then again, didn't Mormont meet and fall in love with whatsherface who was from Oldtown? Or they fell in love IN Oldtown? If either of those, then maybe I could see Jorah finding his way back there somehow.

I guess we'll have to see!

[redriver]

That is, of course, to suggest that Jorah somehow makes it to Oldtown. I can't see that happening.

I feel like it's more likely that the Ironmen are going to attack Oldtown somehow, and Samwell will have arrived in Oldtown as soon as it's necessary to evacuate. There's no doubt that Sam and Jorah will meet, but I don't believe it'll be in Oldtown specifically.

Then again, didn't Mormont meet and fall in love with whatsherface who was from Oldtown? Or they fell in love IN Oldtown? If either of those, then maybe I could see Jorah finding his way back there somehow.

I guess we'll have to see!

Yep,Lynesse Hightower no less who found the whole Bear Island thing not to her taste and left him for a Lysene whoremonger.

Circles within circles.No doubt the raven knew all this.

[Black Crow]

I haven't read this whole thread but has anyone, you know, considered the possibility that the Raven could just be a mystery/creepy element that is never explored... let alone explained?...

What if, and just role with me here, the Raven is never explained in the slightest and it's just meant to throw readers off and overall is all just coincidences combined with a smart bird? I'm thinking like the numbers in Lost, they never explained those either. (but the main difference there, is that the characters in Lost were just as confused by the numbers as the audience. In ASOIAF, no character seems particularly confused by Mormont's bird)

Thoughts?

This is the Morrigan concept, which Redriver refers to us discussing on the Heresies - a Celtic goddess with multiple aspects, usually taking the form of a crow (ravens are corvidae, ie; crows), but also variously appearing, amongst other things as maiden, mother and crone. GRRM has said we're not going to get direct interventions by dieties but that instead its going to be vague and ambiguous, or words to that effect, and that fits with the Morrigan, not taking an overtly active part but popping up from time to time to guide and influence things, whether as the crow rigging Jon Snow's election, as Ygritte (the maiden) telling him he knows nothing, or as Old Nan (the crone) telling him everything, if only he'd listen.

And lest you think this a touch crackpot, there is a House Morrigen, whose sigil is a crow.

[redriver]

So,another angle to consider.Is the bird warged or an entity in itself?

[Black Crow]

An entity in itself :cool4:

[redriver]

We've been pondering the meaning of the birds favourite word,corn,throughout the reread.

Here,as Mormont is dying,the bird uses the word as a question twice,"Corn?"

It seems to me as if he's asking Sam if Mormont is really dead?So perhaps the corn=death or trouble is close to the mark.

[Black Crow]

And of course Bran was on his way to feed corn to the crows when he discovered he couldn't fly.

[redriver]

And of course Bran was on his way to feed corn to the crows when he discovered he couldn't fly.

The question the 3EC asks Bran-"Say,got any corn?" I always took the crow and the corn as recognizable and familiar symbols to incorporate into Bran's psyche.And they are familiar to Bran from his climbing exploits.

But the question could mean,do you intend to live or die,fall or fly?

[dreamcatcher]

Such a good thread, I read most of it. Waiting for further analyses, the raven gets truly interesting in ADWD.

I think the bird is warged, especially because of the word 'gnarled' being used.

[redriver]

Such a good thread, I read most of it. Waiting for further analyses, the raven gets truly interesting in ADWD.

I think the bird is warged, especially because of the word 'gnarled' being used.

Yep,the bird is largely absent in AFFC but definately becomes more of a "player" from the end of ASOS through ADWD.

Going to have a look at Sam's next POV .Though it doesn't explicitly contain Mormont's raven(though it might),it certainly contains talking and acting ravens.

[Black Crow]

Such a good thread, I read most of it. Waiting for further analyses, the raven gets truly interesting in ADWD.

I think the bird is warged, especially because of the word 'gnarled' being used.

If you find this thread interesting, you might like to try the Heresies in the ADwD section of the forum.

[Scipio Africanus]

- "Corn.Corn.Corn."Comes a helpful contribution in the middle of it all.

- Back to "ended" as said by the raven,echoing Mormont's words about the words about the dead NW man.And maybe foreshadowing Mormont's end too.But could it be foreshadowing the end of the Watch itself?

In reality,an order that is supposed to uphold all that is sacred to the old gods has desecrated guest rights and assassinated it's Lord Commander.Has the integrity Night's Watch,or the vestiges of what it once was perished here?Has the bird got it right.

- One more wrinkle.The idea has been circulating in the Heresy threads that the raven may be an avatar of the old gods,based on the Morrigan of Celtic lore.As such,not warged,but an entity somewhat above Bloodraven in the food chain.

Thoughts?

I) I posted this before but I found that scene rather funny on a reread. Brynden Rivers certainly wasn't de-escalating here.

II) I suspect the Raven was just talking about the dead Ranger and agreeing his watch had ended. But as for the NW, it is my suspecion that the NW will cease to exist. Right now it has stopped as an effective fighting unit (allowing the Others to pass the Wall - oh my). Dolorous Edd though will be the last man at the Wall, wondering where everyone went end DoS though. :)

III) Just reread Bran's POV in DwD. Brynden Rivers explains that once an animal is warged it is easier for another warg to enter it as its used to the warging process. The birds also retain something of the soul (or whatever) of the warg even if said warg is long gone (we witnessed this earlier in the case of Orell the eagle). This is something similar to what Red Mel comments that "the bones remember". Martin seems to be hinting heavily that past personalities and knowledge is passed down through flora (weirwood trees), fauna (animals) and inanimate objects (bones). Finally, Martin writes that the CotF told Bran's group that they believed they were the old gods. On an unrelated thought, but I found it odd that Brynden Rivers was proclaimed the last greenseeer, while Bran (warged into Hodor) walks passed a cave apparently containing other greenseeers (though CotF, and much older).

But back to the original question. I think the birds retain other wargs and greenseeers from yesteryear. So while I don't think there will be devine intervention on a Homerific scale, the birds will pass on knowledge or personalities to those currently warging the bird. Perhaps Bran has something to tell Jonny as the latter is warged into Ghost come WoW, and somehow manages to pass it on.

[redriver]

There is no specific mention of Mormont's raven in Sam's next POV,but I think it's worth taking a look at for the raven action!

To set some context,Sam has fled Craster's Keep with Gilly and her baby,trying to reach Castle Black.They have reached an abandoned village,which,at first,Sam thinks might be Whitetree.They have one horse between them,the second having died on the journey.

Sam concludes that the village is not Whitetree,but he says a prayer before the weirwood at it's center.They settle in the Longhall for the night,Gilly manages to get a fire going,Sam sings Gilly the Song of the Seven,they eat some bloodsausage,and Sam brings the garron in.

More comfortable than he's been in long time,Sam snuggles down under his huge cloak with Gilly and baby,and dreams ....

....but wakes,"in cold and dread.

The fire had burned down to smouldering red embers.The air itself seemed frozen,it was so cold..In the corner the garron was whinnying and kicking the logs...Gilly sat beside the fire,hugging her babe.Sam sat up groggy,his breath puffing pale from his open mouth.The longhall was dark with shadows,black and blacker."

Then a shadow detaches itself from the rest.Gilly wept."He smells him.A babe fresh-born stinks o' life.He's come for the life."

The shadow is revealed as a wightified Small Paul,the NW man who carried Sam when he couldn't walk,and wanted to own Mormont's raven.Perhaps he got his wish?

"Paul's hands were coal,his face was milk,his eyes shone a bitter blue.....and on one shoulder hunched a raven,pecking at his cheek,eating the dead white flesh."

Could this be Mormont's raven,that in his panic Sam didn't recognize?

Sam pleads with unPaul to no avail."Gilly backwards across the hard dirt floor.The wight turned his head to look at her,but Sam shouted "NO" and he turned back"

There then ensues a fight in which Sam shatters his obsidian blade on the wight,loses his steel dagger,but finally kills it with fire from the burning embers.

Triumphally,he stumbles from the longhall only to find Gilly and babe surrounded by wights,including unChett.

"Sam made a whimpery sound.It's not fair...."

"Fair.The raven landed on his shoulder."Fair,far,fear."It flapped it's wings,and screamed along with Gilly.(We'll return to this later coz we're in the middle of a dodgy situation.)

"He heard the dark red leaves of the weirwood rustling,whispering to one another in a tongue he did not know."So many references in the books to trees cannot speak,but words are wind that make noises,so why not weirwood leaves?

Sam spotted the ravens in their thousands just before they attacked the wights.And decimated them.

"Go," said the bird on his shoulder.Go,go,go"

And as they flee,Sam hears a shout of "Brother!"and Sam sees a man on a giant elk,dressed in the black of the NW beckoning.As he is helped to mount,Sam realizes the hands are black,cold and hard as stone.

Some questions arise here;

1.Is the raven on Small Paul's shoulder Mormont's raven?

2.Does the raven have a sentience of it's own,since it's capable of wordplay-"Fair,far,fear"?

3.This is the first "massive attack" we've seen by ravens.Who controls it?How devastating is it?Will we see it again?

4.Wtf is mister coldhands?

ETA. The bird issues an instruction-"go",which is not a repeated word.

[Eira Seren]

i have always been pretty sure that Mormont's raven is being warged, though i also think he at times retains some of his own crowish personality. i've been reading a book called 'gifts of the crow' by john marzluff and tony angell, which is fairly scientific but they do a good job explaining corvid behavior, especially some of the more curious habits, like talking, interactions with humans and other animals, including pulling tails, other forms of teasing, and gift giving. apparently gift giving - like leaving dead mice or shiny objects and even a candy heart that said 'i love you' on it, might be in exchange for food or other assistance. among other reasons, they surmise that the crow may associate the gift with forthcoming food (who has trained who?), but it could also be a genuine kind of reciprocity.

pretty interesting, and with drawings (yay, pics!). in fairness, i doubt we can correlate all of the real corvid behavior with martin's ravens. but the hair plucking, the crying for 'corn' and the discussion about whether or not the raven might be delivering information (gifts, perhaps?) in exchange for food may actually be kinda accurate. also, bloodraven seems like the type who employs this behavior - again, who is training who? i'm sure he enjoys his treeish information gathering, but info is only good if you can do something with it. we know he's done it before, and is doing so with his now-captive apprentice, Bran. he seems like a prime candidate to me.

i think it's funny though, when the raven seems to act indignant and gets his feathers ruffled over things, and i have to wonder if this is the raven's personality, or some vestige of a remaining greenseer. good stuff.

[Faceless Sam]

how do the Celts have a Corn King? Corn is American, is it not?

corn can mean a lot of things in germanic languages, usually the most common kind of crop in a region.

definitely not maize in this case.

[Eira Seren]

sorry to post again so soon, i just read the new segment and now that you point it out, i really have to wonder if it might be Mormont's raven. would sam be able to tell the difference if he was afraid?

also i notice that the raven is playing with the words 'fair' and 'fear,' something which earlier in the thread someone mentioned he might have been doing all along. i suppose it will depend on the POV at the time as to how that character may be hearing the raven's words.

a couple of other thoughts on earlier subjects:

I don't think either Mormont or Maester Aemon (as others have mentioned) had any clue as to who Jon's true parents actually were. Ned did a pretty damn good job sullying his reputation by claiming Jon as his bastard. I don't know what info Mormont could go off of to come to this conclusion. Looking at the context of the story, Mormont sees the parallels between Jon's and Aemon's situations, and tries to dissuade Jon from acting by telling Aemon's story, IMO...

LC mormont's sister, maege, has a daughter named lyanna. what kind of connection IS there between the mormonts and the starks? especially given that we know so little of the women in the stark family tree. mormont potentially could know quite a bit, and what he isn't able to verify, can probably figure out.

However, I also don't think that Old Bear's raven is warged by Bloodraven/3EC. I am more inclined to think that the Old Bear entered the raven when he died (we already know Mormont women are skinchangers, why not men too?).

good point. (i have always thought that the husband to bears spent a weekend with one of the mormonts.)

IF there is some connection between the mormonts and the starks, the skinchanging ability might have gotten stronger or has been maintained through the families joining. maybe it is just a northmen thing, which would really explain the potential Bolton envy (and compensating behavior) if they didn't get that trait. i suppose if jon is a targ, then he could just as well have inherited the trait from that side of the family (since bloodraven is good at warging more than trees). it makes me think that warging a dragon might really be the most effective way to control them. maybe the targs had to make horns as a backup as the warging abiltiy faded. if the old bear is able to warg the raven, which i think is possible, does it limit the raven's 'knowingness' in a way that suggests that someone other than mormont is the warg? (are there things the raven couldn't have known, or wouldn't do, if the warg is mormont?)

After talking with Sam,Jon looks at the sky and notes that,"The long red tail of Mormont's Torch burned bright as the moon."I had a WTF moment here,but yes,that's just the name the watch gives the comet.

you gave me a wtf moment when i read your post. interesting that Mel is sure that the comet means dragons (and dany assumes that she is one head of the dragon). a torch is also something that gets passed on. Mormont, who is training Jon to command, has also given him Longclaw. In every sense, Mormont is passing his torch. . . possibly to a dragon.

all in all, i think it is pretty likely that mormont knows exactly what he's doing and why. perhaps the raven offered a few suggestions, or maybe it is because of the raven's behavior that mormont has been able to put things together. because he's a northman, because he's the LC and privy to a lot of insider info on the NW, i think mormont probably suspects that his raven is warged. he's seen enough convincing evidence for the Others; despite his assertion that the COTF are all dead, i think mormont might just be a believer. the raven might have been issuing him a warning prior to the attack, but then again, the raven (or whoever is warging him) may have had its own reasons for being a bit obscure, so as to help things along. at this point, my vote is with the COTF (and quite possibly Bloodraven).

any rate, i think that Petyr Baelish has not accounted for all the players. in fact, the game he has joined may be quite different than he thinks it is. He should count his corn very carefully.

[redriver]

sorry to post again so soon, i just read the new segment and now that you point it out, i really have to wonder if it might be Mormont's raven. would sam be able to tell the difference if he was afraid?

also i notice that the raven is playing with the words 'fair' and 'fear,' something which earlier in the thread someone mentioned he might have been doing all along. i suppose it will depend on the POV at the time as to how that character may be hearing the raven's words.

a couple of other thoughts on earlier subjects:

LC mormont's sister, maege, has a daughter named lyanna. what kind of connection IS there between the mormonts and the starks? especially given that we know so little of the women in the stark family tree. mormont potentially could know quite a bit, and what he isn't able to verify, can probably figure out.

good point. (i have always thought that the husband to bears spent a weekend with one of the mormonts.)

IF there is some connection between the mormonts and the starks, the skinchanging ability might have gotten stronger or has been maintained through the families joining. maybe it is just a northmen thing, which would really explain the potential Bolton envy (and compensating behavior) if they didn't get that trait. i suppose if jon is a targ, then he could just as well have inherited the trait from that side of the family (since bloodraven is good at warging more than trees). it makes me think that warging a dragon might really be the most effective way to control them. maybe the targs had to make horns as a backup as the warging abiltiy faded. if the old bear is able to warg the raven, which i think is possible, does it limit the raven's 'knowingness' in a way that suggests that someone other than mormont is the warg? (are there things the raven couldn't have known, or wouldn't do, if the warg is mormont?)

you gave me a wtf moment when i read your post. interesting that Mel is sure that the comet means dragons (and dany assumes that she is one head of the dragon). a torch is also something that gets passed on. Mormont, who is training Jon to command, has also given him Longclaw. In every sense, Mormont is passing his torch. . . possibly to a dragon.

all in all, i think it is pretty likely that mormont knows exactly what he's doing and why. perhaps the raven offered a few suggestions, or maybe it is because of the raven's behavior that mormont has been able to put things together. because he's a northman, because he's the LC and privy to a lot of insider info on the NW, i think mormont probably suspects that his raven is warged. he's seen enough convincing evidence for the Others; despite his assertion that the COTF are all dead, i think mormont might just be a believer. the raven might have been issuing him a warning prior to the attack, but then again, the raven (or whoever is warging him) may have had its own reasons for being a bit obscure, so as to help things along. at this point, my vote is with the COTF (and quite possibly Bloodraven).

any rate, i think that Petyr Baelish has not accounted for all the players. in fact, the game he has joined may be quite different than he thinks it is. He should count his corn very carefully.

Personally,I don't think Mormont is warging the bird,but I do think he might believe the bird is warged.And we have a new candidate for that,Coldhands.

But how do you co-ordinate the kind of mass attack we've seen in this chapter?

Do you warg them all or just the leader of the "murder"?

[Tyryan Lannister]

corn can mean a lot of things in germanic languages, usually the most common kind of crop in a region.

definitely not maize in this case.

In terms of languages, the important thing about Corn is that it is derived from the Latin word cornu (from where we also get cornicopia)--which, by the way, translates to HORN--coincidence? possibly, but Martin and coincidence are like Stannis and working with other people

[redriver]

In terms of languages, the important thing about Corn is that it is derived from the Latin word cornu (from where we also get cornicopia)--which, by the way, translates to HORN--coincidence? possibly, but Martin and coincidence are like Stannis and working with other people

If the suggestion is that Sam should blow the Horn,then the question is why?The raven seems to be anti-wight,therefore probably anti-Others too.

So why would it wish to bring down the Wall?

Apologies if I've missed your point entirely.