Mormonts Raven-a re-read

[Scarlet Seastar]

If the suggestion is that Sam should blow the Horn,then the question is why?The raven seems to be anti-wight,therefore probably anti-Others too.

So why would it wish to bring down the Wall?

Apologies if I've missed your point entirely.

That's what I have always wondered.

I believe that Mance knew the horn he had was not the real thing, and was just using it as a leverage to pass through the Wall on the other side, where the Others can't get them.

What if the horn Sam has(the cracked one, made from obsidian), is actually a horn that harms the Others, or controls an Ice dragon?

[Lord Falcon]

That's what I have always wondered.

I believe that Mance knew the horn he had was not the real thing, and was just using it as a leverage to pass through the Wall on the other side, where the Others can't get them.

What if the horn Sam has(the cracked one, made from obsidian), is actually a horn that harms the Others, or controls an Ice dragon?

I had completely forgotten about that horn. I have only read the series once (though I just started GoT again).

I see the Raven as being warged by BR, but not on a consistant basis. Therefore making it difficult for us to figure out when its him and what it is not. Meaning that at times the Raven is just a raven (perhaps with the memory of the CotF, making him an incredibly gifted raven, but a raven none the less). I tend to make this distinction just at times when the Raven is mimicking the last word said.

[redriver]

I have to say that an attack by a large number of like minded ravens is something that very few could withstand.This is large scale weaponry.

And hard to attack too.I think it's as potent as any dragon,and less easy to kill.You might shoot an arrow through a dragon's eye,but how do you do that to a murder of ravens?

[Little Wing]

I have to say that an attack by a large number of like minded ravens is something that very few could withstand.This is large scale weaponry.

And hard to attack too.I think it's as potent as any dragon,and less easy to kill.You might shoot an arrow through a dragon's eye,but how do you do that to a murder of ravens?

Throw a lot of corn around? :P

Well, actually, chunks of meat would do, right? They eat meat, not corn.

[redriver]

Throw a lot of corn around? :P

Well, actually, chunks of meat would do, right? They eat meat, not corn.

Omnivorous,just like most humans,though there are a few oddballs.

On a serious note,they attacked the wights in a co-ordinated way,at the behest of Coldhands.They saved Sam and Gilly( and monster) and one told them to "go,go,go".

Methinks,these ravens are a force to be reckoned with and sprinkling some corn or meat around won't save you.

[Little Wing]

Wanna bet? :laugh: Yeah, I agree, they are controlled/rallied to a specific purpose. Like Weg Wun said in Heresy, Sam prayed to the Old Gods prior to this attack... Bloodraven heard and dispatched Coldhands... and the birds, Hitchcock style :cool4: I guess those are the birds with the old souls/wargs/riders in them. The birds that mass in the Raventree godswood too. They will have their uses in the future, I'm sure :)

[redriver]

Wanna bet? :laugh: Yeah, I agree, they are controlled/rallied to a specific purpose. Like Weg Wun said in Heresy, Sam prayed to the Old Gods prior to this attack... Bloodraven heard and dispatched Coldhands... and the birds, Hitchcock style :cool4: I guess those are the birds with the old souls/wargs/riders in them. The birds that mass in the Raventree godswood too. They will have their uses in the future, I'm sure :)

I will ponder this whilst listening to Massive Attack :cheers:

[Eira Seren]

Personally,I don't think Mormont is warging the bird,but I do think he might believe the bird is warged.And we have a new candidate for that,Coldhands.

But how do you co-ordinate the kind of mass attack we've seen in this chapter?

Do you warg them all or just the leader of the "murder"?

well, according to that book i was reading, mobbing other birds, critters, and people is a common behavior among corvids, especially if they perceive the subject being assailed as a threat to their territory or whatever. so it could be that the COTF are individually controlling the murder. or maybe it would only take a few COTF and the rest of the ravens would follow?

[redriver]

well, according to that book i was reading, mobbing other birds, critters, and people is a common behavior among corvids, especially if they perceive the subject being assailed as a threat to their territory or whatever. so it could be that the COTF are individually controlling the murder. or maybe it would only take a few COTF and the rest of the ravens would follow?

This makes sense.I would agree that perhaps one or two "leaders" are warged who direct the rest.

Looks like we'll need to follow Coldhands for the rest of the reread,since he seems to have a special link to the corvids.

[Scipio Africanus]

As I have posted in the page before, the ravens still had the "essence" of whoever warged them before. The ravens of old would be warged by the CotF (they later tought the First Men how to do as well) and would actually talk to those the ravens were sent a message to. They still have their own raven tongue from those days. So the ravens, at the very least those beyond the Wall, are more intelligent then their cousins futher south.

And while Brynden Rivers calls himself the last greenseeer, we see through Bran that there are still other "living" weirwood trees (ex-greenseers) located in the cave. How "active" they still are is not known but they're there. For all we know they still greensee along with Brynden.

[Black Crow]

He (Damphair) had no love of maesters. Their ravens were creatures of the Storm God.

[Bayard]

He (Damphair) had no love of maesters. Their ravens were creatures of the Storm God.

Yes, but we've seen that the ravens are used by the Children of the Forrest, so they are a tool of the Old Gods. The ironborn have the same dual religion, the good Drowned Good fights the bad Storm God. They are also First Men, and in the beginning they probably had the same religion as the rest of Westeros... but thousands of years of isolation morphed the old religion into something new. The fact that they reject the ravens, and their god, means that the Drowned Good represents a bastardized version of the Great Other??? and the ironborn, just like Craster changed from one god to the other? Maybe, but I think it's just as likely that after such a long time they got stuff messed up. This is what happens when you despise scholars, books, education, and so on... you forget important things :)

[Black Crow]

Or, more likely, that the Storm Gods are numbered among the Old Gods

[Scarlet Seastar]

Or, more likely, that the Storm Gods are numbered among the Old Gods

In the religion of the Ironborn, there is only the Drowned and the Storm God. And I don't think that we can easily mix them with the Old Gods.

Simply because it is a dualistic religion: Drowned God-good, Storm God-bad.

Who is the enemy of the Old Gods, I ask you? Has it ever been mentioned?

I could only connect the religion of Ironborn with the religion of the Lord of Light and the Great Other. Who's widely believed[except Mel who probably thinks it's Bloodraven] to be Chief White Walker.

However, there is something curious when you think about the Old Gods and the Lord of Light.

Now, from Ned, Jon, Sam we have the view for the Old Gods as trees and, may be not Jon or Sam, but Ned seems to believe that there is a being, a spectral force behind those blood-red eyes that listens to the prayers. Later, from Bran and Bloodraven, now, I am not sure I am right, but about 90%, the Old Gods are greenseers, skinchangers, that watch through the trees and aid the ones in need.

The curious thing is that, even after more than a thousand years, and after the Long Night and all that, the Others haven't risen to the point of being the other half of the Old Gods coin. When you turn it around, there is simply another weirwood tree.

Meanwhile, on the other side of the Narrow Sea, the religion of the Lord of Light is formed. Haven't really paid much attention to that religion, simply because it disgusts me the way they burn people, though, curiously, there is a difference between the fires that Dany and Arya and Tyrion glimpse in Essoss, than Mel's fires. Simple difference: so many sightings in Essoss, in which no one burned, while Mel managed to burn several people in what? A year? Also, the fires in Essoss were lit to chase away the night, and may be my dislike of Mel will probably seep here, but there is something fundamentally sinister in Mel's fires. Even when they're not burning anyone.

Now, back to Mel. Mel seems to believe that the Lord of Light is a some sort of a mythical, spectral essence, while, as I said, thinking that Bloodraven is evil and probably the Great Other.

My point is that religions reflect on people's lives. Most of the Ironborn probably died at sea, because of storms, so it is not surprising that their religion would be Drowned God and Storm God and all their mantras.

And for the North, as most of its inhabitants descendants of the First Men who were buddies with the CotF, of course they would inherit that religion. As of the Seven, I have no idea where it might have come from, except from important people in the lives of a person, and since in that time, death sometimes happens unexpectedly, no wonder death is represented by Stranger.

The only religion, I believe, that takes all other religions into one is Him-of-many-faces. Alone by themselves, they don't mix.

Was Bran able to feel other souls in the ravens he warged?

[Eira Seren]

for some reason, i have the impression that he was, but haven't reread ADWD yet to be sure.

i always had the idea that the red god and the great other were opposed (mainly from the series title, ice and fire), though over time plainly that has gotten far more convoluted. the raven--and i'm thinking Mormont's raven in particular, seem to belong to a version of the old gods, but one that has perhaps fractured into the others and the COTF.

however, i was just reminded that bloodraven used to be the LC of the night's watch. So now I really think that bloodraven and the COTF have been sort of 'helping' (or shaping) things with the night's watch. the COTF are probably the ones who (with some help from coldhands? benjen? left the cache of weapons by the fist, honoring the old agreement). meanwhile, the raven has been acting as a sort of mentor to mormont; just think of it as mormont taking advice from his (warging, ever watchful) predecessor.

am really curious, and will probably never know, how mormont came to have the raven as his personal pet. probably something as innocuous as the LC gets his own personal raven to send messages.

i guess, if baelish can have spies, varys can have little birds (and the sands can have little vipers), then the COTF can have trees and ravens.

ETA: the wiki on bloodraven mentions he probably once served daeron II as the master of whisperers

[Scarlet Seastar]

for some reason, i have the impression that he was, but haven't reread ADWD yet to be sure.

i always had the idea that the red god and the great other were opposed (mainly from the series title, ice and fire), though over time plainly that has gotten far more convoluted. the raven--and i'm thinking Mormont's raven in particular, seem to belong to a version of the old gods, but one that has perhaps fractured into the others and the COTF.

however, i was just reminded that bloodraven used to be the LC of the night's watch. So now I really think that bloodraven and the COTF have been sort of 'helping' (or shaping) things with the night's watch. the COTF are probably the ones who (with some help from coldhands? benjen? left the cache of weapons by the fist, honoring the old agreement). meanwhile, the raven has been acting as a sort of mentor to mormont; just think of it as mormont taking advice from his (warging, ever watchful) predecessor.

am really curious, and will probably never know, how mormont came to have the raven as his personal pet. probably something as innocuous as the LC gets his own personal raven to send messages.

i guess, if baelish can have spies, varys can have little birds (and the sands can have little vipers), then the COTF can have trees and ravens.

ETA: the wiki on bloodraven mentions he probably once served daeron II as the master of whisperers

I believe the office of the Master of Whisperers was made for Varys. But he probably did serve as that, even without the title.

The wiki doesn't say how Bloodraven ended up north of the Wall, though.

[Lady Octarina]

Well, if the ironborn gods have some kind of connection to the old gods, that would certainly give a new perspective to the "dead things in the water" bit.

[Lord Falcon]

If we assume that Mormonts Raven, and other raven's, are important to the series. That they only appear in one of two ways. 1) when they are mentioned carrying messages, i.e. black wings black words or "A raven was sent to KL this morning, etc etc" or 2) as something speical, i.e. Mormonts Raven or the White Raven of the Citdal, which annoucnes winter has come.

If we accept this theroy, and I think many of us here do, then we can assume that any time a Raven is inserted into the stroy it should fall under one of these two situations. I know this is going backwards in chronology but I think there might be something there. In GoT, paperback version, page 254 Ned is talking with Grand Measter Pycelle about Lord Aryn's death. He had just brooched the idea that perhaps JA had been poisoned. He says that he hears that poison is a womens weapon. Grand Measter Pycelle responsd with:

Pycelle stroked his bread thoughtfully. "It is said. Women, cravens... and eunuchs." He cleared his throat and spat a thick glob of phlegm onto the rushes. Above them, a raven cawed loudly in the rookery. "The Lord Varys was born a slave in Lys, did you know? Put not your trust in spiders, my Lord.

Now this is just a quick mention, but it represents, to me, that Ravens know more then we think. GRRM shows the raven, seemingly randomly, caw loudly following a mention of Lord Varys. We never see anothe raven do this, even when one is around. They are only mentioned at moments when they have something to add to the story. Perhaps he is trying to warn someone that Varys is not to be trusted? I am not sure what the raven might really mean, but it does seem curious to me.

[Eira Seren]

nice one, i didn't catch that at all! i don't know which way to read it, now that i know that Pycelle never really liked Varys; also that Pycelle himself is not to be trusted (how long has he been spying for cersei, anyway?).

maybe the raven is agreeing with pycelle regardless. neither of the two are very trustworthy. so the raven may be alerting Ned and us that something's up and we ought to pay attention.

[Lord Falcon]

nice one, i didn't catch that at all! i don't know which way to read it, now that i know that Pycelle never really liked Varys; also that Pycelle himself is not to be trusted (how long has he been spying for cersei, anyway?).

maybe the raven is agreeing with pycelle regardless. neither of the two are very trustworthy. so the raven may be alerting Ned and us that something's up and we ought to pay attention.

That is correct, however I think it is important to remember that at the time of this passage we are to assume that the Grand Measter is to be respected and trusted, al la Measter Luwin.