Mormonts Raven-a re-read

[redriver]

This^ and the door at the bottom of the Nightfort well.You can't lie to that!

[FanTasy]

We encountered more use of weirwoord, it seems to be used for decoration. For instance Tobho Mott's door in Kings Landing is decorated with weirwood, but one could argue that in his workplace magic is used. He tells Ned in AGOT that he knows to forge steel and bring colour to steel using the spells of old Valyria.

Nice foreshadowing by the way of what Mott will do to Ned's sword :frown5:

[FittleLinger]

But all kings are first princes, so that's not really a problem. Not to mention that "prince" was a word used in the old days to refer both to kings and less powerful princes.

Let me take the opportunity to congratulate you on the thread - Mormon't raven can't be discussed enough. ;)

I agree; the simple fact that Mormont chose to tell him Aemon's story to me is enough confirmation that he knows (or suspects) who Jon truly is.

Just one thing: Benjen was most likely chosen to be a ranger by Mormont's predecessor, if I'm not mixing the timeline.

Excellent thoughts!

Let me just add - not only the Aemon story, but the fact that Mormont chose him as a personal steward, when Jon's skills were more suitable for a ranger. Mormont or Sam or both at some point tell Jon something like, "Why do you think you're LC's steward? To lead some day, of course!". It's two birds with one stone - by being LC steward, he will take a shortcut of learning how to lead and internal affairs, and also not risk losing young important Jon to the cold/wildlings/others on a range.

Also, Mormont knows Ned - he was the one who exiled his son, so he knows Ned's not the type to break a vow or bend the rules. The rules of marriage/cheating included.

Which leads me to believe that Jeor not only suspects/knows of Jon's parentage, but maybe believes in the PTWP legend as well. When he dies, he says something like "The wall wasn't built to protect us from wildlings who steal our women and turnips, there was something more" or something to that effect.

Heck, he was attacked by a wight and saved by Jon Snow with fire! It's not too far to reach that he might both suspect and believe in Azor Ahai Reborn.

[FanTasy]

Which leads me to believe that Jeor not only suspects/knows of Jon's parentage, but maybe believes in the PTWP legend as well. When he dies, he says something like "The wall wasn't built to protect us from wildlings who steal our women and turnips, there was something more" or something to that effect.

Heck, he was attacked by a wight and saved by Jon Snow with fire! It's not too far to reach that he might both suspect and believe in Azor Ahai Reborn.

Possibly, but I'm leaning towards The Old Bear not knowing this.

In AGOT Tyrion suggests he (Mormont) lets "Young Snow" accompany him back to Winterfell, to see his brothers.

Mormont reacts: "Snow? Oh, the Stark bastard."

This may or may not be a hint that he thinks Jon is something else as what he says: a Stark bastard.

Of course one could say he doesn't say 'Ned Stark's bastard'.

ETA But I guess the remark shows that by then he doesn't think of Jon as someone of great importance.

But as said, I think Mormont took Jon under his wings after Jon presumably saved him from the attack of Othor.

ETA The phrase of the Wall not being built for the wildlings is methinks a reference to that the Wall was built to keep the Others out.

_{Edited for fuzzy and sloppy English}

[FittleLinger]

Possibly, but I'm leaning towards The Old Bear not knowing this.

In AGOT Tyrion suggests he (Mormont) lets "Young Snow" accompany him back to Winterfell, to see his brothers.

Mormont reacts: "Snow? Oh, the Stark bastard."

This may or may not be a hint that he thinks Jon is something else as what he says: a Stark bastard.

Of course one could say he doesn't say 'Ned Stark's bastard'.

ETA But I guess the remark shows that by then he doesn't think of Jon as someone of great importance.

But as said, I think Mormont took Jon under his wings after Jon presumably saved him from the attack of Othor.

ETA The phrase of the Wall not being built for the wildlings is methinks a reference to that the Wall was built to keep the Others out.

_{Edited for fuzzy and sloppy English}

Yes, but he could've also been sarcastic (like "the Stark bastard, yeah right"), or just Jon has always been known as a Stark bastard, no matter who he really is, or he doesnt' want to tell Tyrion Jon's identity if he knows it (understandable), or maybe it's just his suspicion, he doesn't know for sure, or even doesn't suspect it at all at this point.

About the wall built to defend against others - yes, my point exactly. And he has been attacked by a wight and generally knows something is up, so maybe he was like "Wasn't there a legend for a PWWP who will fight the others. And this guy Snow... Hm".

Of course, this is only speculating. You might be right that he doesn't have a clue.

[FittleLinger]

Let me just add - Qhorin Halfhand? He's the best ranger, and an authority figure to the brothers. Two things here:

Mormont and Halfhand let Snow go on the range (It's time for him to go on a real mission and see what it's like, if he will be the one saving the realm's ass)

and also - Qhorin sacrificed himself to save Jon. Yes he's honorable and brave and a badass in general (the Halfhand), but it seems a bit excessive. It could of course be because Halfhand knows Mance won't let the best ranger live anyway, but could be something more.

My point being - IF Mormont knows and suspect about Jon, then Halfhand could be in the loop as well.

OP - sorry for getting offtopic, don't be mad please.

[Rohed]

Possibly, but I'm leaning towards The Old Bear not knowing this.

In AGOT Tyrion suggests he (Mormont) lets "Young Snow" accompany him back to Winterfell, to see his brothers.

Mormont reacts: "Snow? Oh, the Stark bastard."

This may or may not be a hint that he thinks Jon is something else as what he says: a Stark bastard.

Of course one could say he doesn't say 'Ned Stark's bastard'.

ETA But I guess the remark shows that by then he doesn't think of Jon as someone of great importance.

But as said, I think Mormont took Jon under his wings after Jon presumably saved him from the attack of Othor.

ETA The phrase of the Wall not being built for the wildlings is methinks a reference to that the Wall was built to keep the Others out.

_{Edited for fuzzy and sloppy English}

He may have said "Stark bastard" because they (the north) dont see him as a real "Snow". I think there is suspicion in the north about the baby Ned Stark brought home. (I am speculating of course) so they name him the Stark bastard and not snow.

As for Mormont thinking Jon could be somthing more...well lets not forget this kid shows up as a volunteer for the Wall with a direwolf at his heels. As stated Mormont knew Ned (did he fight with Ned in the rebelion?? I dont know the time line for his going to the wall)

[FittleLinger]

He may have said "Stark bastard" because they (the north) dont see him as a real "Snow". I think there is suspicion in the north about the baby Ned Stark brought home. (I am speculating of course) so they name him the Stark bastard and not snow.

As for Mormont thinking Jon could be somthing more...well lets not forget this kid shows up as a volunteer for the Wall with a direwolf at his heels. As stated Mormont knew Ned (did he fight with Ned in the rebelion?? I dont know the time line for his going to the wall)

He fought under his banners, but I don't know if he was really alongside him in some battle. But yes, he was lord, so in general he will know/have met his overlord.

[Catacombs]

This is a very nice thread. Thanks. I'm looking forward to it working through the books.

The raven seems to foreshadow the future, give warnings and sometimes messages to change events (like "burn, burn, burn).

Of his regular vocabulary, he has a few words that are repeated pretty often as the series develops.

There are a couple that have me wondering about their meaning when used separately and together:

CORN

It seems that when the raven says "Corn" he is not talking about food. Uruk-Hello has put together a solid theory about this one. When the raven says "corn", somebody related to the conversation of the moment is going to go through a major life change.

KING

The raven first says this in ACoK. It may refer to Jon. It may not. The Raven says this at other times as well. What does it mean?

There is a time in ADWD when Jon is having a heated breakfast meeting with Septon Cellador, Bowen Marsh and Othell Yarwyck. When they join Jon, the raven says "corn" three times. Later, after a contentious discussion about Jon's decision to choose Leathers--a former wilding--as Master at Arms, the Raven say "free" followed by a "corn" and then a "King". That is followed by angry back and forth about Jon choosing Satin as his steward. In the angry silence that follows, the Raven says "corn, corn, kill"

Given what happens in the last Jon POV of ADWD, the raven seems like he was trying to warn Jon about something...

[Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost]

hahaha i've never thought about this idea before. It has always just seemed like an annoyance to me, but imagine that someone really important from the past had warged the raven and lived on inside??

[Sand Snake No. 9]

hahaha i've never thought about this idea before. It has always just seemed like an annoyance to me, but imagine that someone really important from the past had warged the raven and lived on inside??

Some readers believe that the Raven is being warged by Bloodraven, and that's how he (the greenseer) keeps his eyes on the Night's Watch. If Jon really is a Targ, he'd be especially interesting to BR.

[FanTasy]

When a raven is muttering or talking I think it is not proof that the bird is 'warged'.

Bran learns in ADWD that ravens talk because they have fragments, memories in them of the skinchanger or skinchangers that have been inside them.

In the olden days this capacity of the ravens was used to convey messages. It was not until later that a letter was tied to the bird, to be read by whoever the message was adressed to.

I think Mormonts raven may be around quite a long time, and picked up a lot of things. And he may indeed have a fragment, a memory of former Lord Commanders inside - the former Lord Commander Brynden Rivers for instance.

But I think that whenever we hear a raven muttering or quorking there need not be skinchanging involved in 'real time'.

It is possible and hinted at, but sometimes it could just be memories.

[Lau-la Mora]

When will you discuss the next chapter?? I'm really anxious!

[Sand Snake No. 9]

FanTasy, have you read the gift chapter?

I think there's some real-time skinchanging there, with the two ravens that were brought to Stannis. They were like a nagging raven tag team.

[redriver]

When will you discuss the next chapter?? I'm really anxious!

Hopefully over the next day or two.Then fiinsh ACOK over the next week.

Might have a sneak peak at the 3EC before ASOS.

[Knight ofthe Laughing Tree]

Bloodraven states that all the ravens in the cave have CotF that are long dead in them. I would like to know where Mormont got his raven. The minds of some wargs or CotF long dead could dwell within the raven.

y totally-- and Bran encounters one of them, yes? When he makes it into one in the cave he feels the presence of a CotF that has been there a long time. So while it's totally possible (and likely imo) that BR has warged Mormont's crow, at the same time it could be a smart bird-- aka a CotF

(and awesome thread btw! enjoying it...)

[Knight ofthe Laughing Tree]

Jon reveals some weirwood lore."My lord father believed no man could tell a lie in front of a heart tree.The old gods know when a man is lying."

Perhaps the use of the word "old" made Jon think of the old gods,but why would you lie to a tree?Or talk to it in the first place?

Subliminal suggestion of heart tree=old gods?

I didn't see it that way.... I definitely agree with the word "gone" and the perhaps subliminal suggestion the crow may have planted in Mormont since Mormont says "gone"-- which is very interesting.... but as far as the other one, I'm thinking that Jon is simply giving out the weirwood lore and saying, "you know my father said one couldn't lie to the old gods...aka the heart trees" probably a perfectly normal thing for him to say in that moment. You think?

srry to double post..... just love the thread!

[Cravensbayne]

Excellent theory and seems plausible. Maybe the three eyed crow is in on this

[FanTasy]

FanTasy, have you read the gift chapter?

I think there's some real-time skinchanging there, with the two ravens that were brought to Stannis. They were like a nagging raven tag team.

Har!

[Budj]

I don't think Jeor / Aemon knew about Jon's heritage.

Bran was talking to Jon in real time. His thirdeye opened in the tomb - Jon was in ghost - smelled death and dank...which describes what Summer was sensing in the crypts. No time travel.

The trees know when you are lying because the old gods are pretty much omniscient with their abilities to watch through creatures and trees.