Mormonts Raven-a re-read

[Ser Pollo Loco]

I may have mentioned those options......

To clarify, Jon his called king three times by the raven and he may have technically (but not really) three kingships

[Sanset]

And so we move on to a Clash of Kings.

(...)

Thoren Smallwood,a ranger,is telling Mormont,that as LC,he should remain at Castle Black,commanding and lording-"It seems to me".

The raven flapped it's big.black wings."Me,me,me".Taking the piss out of Smallwood,but perhaps drawing attention to itself,as in "Listen to me".

Mormont does some echoing of his own,telling Smallwood he can make such decisions if he is ever elected LC-"but it seems to me I have not died yet,nor have the brothers put you in my place".

There then follows quite a lengthy discussion on Aemon's Targaryen legacy/history until Mormont concludes,(of Aemon)-"And here he has remained,while his brother and his brother's son and his

son each reigned and died in turn,until Jaime Lannister put an end to the line of dragonkings".

It gets more interesting here-"King",croaked the raven.The bird flapped across the solar to land on Mormont's shoulder."King",it said again,strutting back and forth".

"He likes that word,"Jon said,smiling"

"An easy word to say,an easy word to like"

"King,"the bird said again.

...Mormont stroked the bird under the beak with a finger,but all the while his eyes never left Jon Snow.

Do you mean that Old Bear listens to the raven more than we can see through Jon's point of view?

I see it the same way.

Old Bear must know there's something going on with the raven.

The LC dimisses Sam,then asks Jon,"Is that boy as big a fool as he seems?""Fool",the raven complained.

Is the bird calling Tarly a fool or the LC for calling Sam a fool?

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

Bloodraven's sense of humor is so subtle!

[the titan of westeros]

It seems for a moment that jon does become king during adwd. at the speech of the shield hall he wins the loyalty of the wildlings that's kingly enough for me at least.

[Rohed]

Is it the raven's eyes or Mormonts that never leave Jon? I just got teh sence that Mormont has an idea "who" Jon is.

1. Mormont ask'd why has he come here

2. Putting Jon in line for LC (his stewerd) , unlike his uncle who was put as ranger.

3. His sword going to Jon of all people.

That exchange seems like Mormont may know how to talk with the ravens perhaps? or has some sence.

[redriver]

Is it the raven's eyes or Mormonts that never leave Jon? I just got teh sence that Mormont has an idea "who" Jon is.

1. Mormont ask'd why has he come here

2. Putting Jon in line for LC (his stewerd) , unlike his uncle who was put as ranger.

3. His sword going to Jon of all people.

That exchange seems like Mormont may know how to talk with the ravens perhaps? or has some sence.

That's a good question,because it is ambiguous.I got the impression that the raven made the suggestion and Mormont believes it.

[SillyFox]

Is it the raven's eyes or Mormonts that never leave Jon? I just got teh sence that Mormont has an idea "who" Jon is.

1. Mormont ask'd why has he come here

2. Putting Jon in line for LC (his stewerd) , unlike his uncle who was put as ranger.

3. His sword going to Jon of all people.

That exchange seems like Mormont may know how to talk with the ravens perhaps? or has some sence.

Thats indeed a good way to see it..

There is a great chance that mormont knows that the raven is special,

mayhaps it's privy only to LC rank? so maybe the previous LC tells Mormont about it?

[Lady Octarina]

Without screeching it from a chimney top,this is clear foreshadowing that Jon will become a king.

Problematic,if you believe J=TPWWP.As Mormont says-"A lord's one thing,a king's another".The same applies to princes,presumably.

But all kings are first princes, so that's not really a problem. Not to mention that "prince" was a word used in the old days to refer both to kings and less powerful princes.

Let me take the opportunity to congratulate you on the thread - Mormon't raven can't be discussed enough. ;)

Is it the raven's eyes or Mormonts that never leave Jon? I just got teh sence that Mormont has an idea "who" Jon is.

1. Mormont ask'd why has he come here

2. Putting Jon in line for LC (his stewerd) , unlike his uncle who was put as ranger.

3. His sword going to Jon of all people.

That exchange seems like Mormont may know how to talk with the ravens perhaps? or has some sence.

I agree; the simple fact that Mormont chose to tell him Aemon's story to me is enough confirmation that he knows (or suspects) who Jon truly is.

Just one thing: Benjen was most likely chosen to be a ranger by Mormont's predecessor, if I'm not mixing the timeline.

[Zupoleon]

I agree; the simple fact that Mormont chose to tell him Aemon's story to me is enough confirmation that he knows (or suspects) who Jon truly is.

I don't think either Mormont or Maester Aemon (as others have mentioned) had any clue as to who Jon's true parents actually were. Ned did a pretty damn good job sullying his reputation by claiming Jon as his bastard. I don't know what info Mormont could go off of to come to this conclusion. Looking at the context of the story, Mormont sees the parallels between Jon's and Aemon's situations, and tries to dissuade Jon from acting by telling Aemon's story, IMO...

[Mumatil]

A kernal of truth to every story.

[Cat of the Canal Girl]

Yep, there is something we don't know about that tower that made it a good hideout. Maybe they were just on the run an this was the first safe place. They needed to stop for some reason - tired, sickness, etc. Maybe something entirely else.

lol maybe the fact she was very pregnant and about to burst?

[dragsaw]

well the raven may have seen jon's birth they live around 10-15 in the wild 25-40 as a in captivity so it may know meany things, maby it is the real LC

[Lady Octarina]

lol maybe the fact she was very pregnant and about to burst?

I don't know. The fact that it was probably Rhaegar who called that place Tower of Joy suggests that they stayed there for a while, that he didn't just drop her there when she was "too pregnant" and he had to go fight a war. And I think the fact that it was midway between Starfall (the Daynes' home) and Summerhall (the place R was fascinated with) played a part in his choosing to take Lyanna there.

[The Fallen]

` Bloodraven has got me my spider senses on high alert.

(Arya at Harrenhal)

In the godswood she found her broomstick sword where she had left it, and carried to the heart tree. There she knelt. Red leaves rustled. Red eyes peered inside her. The eyes of the gods. "Tell me what to do, you gods," she prayed.

For a long moment there was no sound but wind and the water and the creak of leaf and limb. And then, far off, beyond the godswood and the haunted towers and the immense stone walls of Harrenhal, from somewhere out in the world, came the long lonely howl of a wolf. Gooseprickles rose on Arya's skin, and for an instant she felt dizzy. Then, so faintly, it seemed as if she heard her father's voice. "When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, the pack survives," he said.

Arya mentions she has no pack, as Bran and Rickon are dead and the rest of the Stark kids are seperated.

"You are Arya of Winterfell, daughter of the north. You told me you could be strong. You have the wolf blood in you"

So, maybe I'm imagining things and Arya is just remembering her father's words. Or it could be Bloodraven talking to her through the godswood. If it's the latter, then he was involved in the story in other ways, not just through the ravens. This is similar to Jon's experience when he saw the face of Bran in the weirwood tree during his first warging experience.

[FanTasy]

` Bloodraven has got me my spider senses on high alert.

(Arya at Harrenhal)

In the godswood she found her broomstick sword where she had left it, and carried to the heart tree. There she knelt. Red leaves rustled. Red eyes peered inside her. The eyes of the gods. "Tell me what to do, you gods," she prayed.

For a long moment there was no sound but wind and the water and the creak of leaf and limb. And then, far off, beyond the godswood and the haunted towers and the immense stone walls of Harrenhal, from somewhere out in the world, came the long lonely howl of a wolf. Gooseprickles rose on Arya's skin, and for an instant she felt dizzy. Then, so faintly, it seemed as if she heard her father's voice. "When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, the pack survives," he said.

Arya mentions she has no pack, as Bran and Rickon are dead and the rest of the Stark kids are seperated.

"You are Arya of Winterfell, daughter of the north. You told me you could be strong. You have the wolf blood in you"

So, maybe I'm imagining things and Arya is just remembering her father's words.

Yes. it refers directly to the talk Ned and Arya have in AGOT 22, Arya. Ned tells her it is time to begin growing up.

Arya: "I will. I can be strong too. I can be as strong as Robb,"

The wolf blood-part refers to what Ned told her just before this promise, that she - like Lyanna and Brandon - has a wildness in her, what Rickard called 'the wolf blood'. I suppose it is the Stark-equivalent of being able to 'waking the dragon'.

[The Bastard of Summer]

I can actually say that I sat here and read this entire thread and didnt get bored. I cant even say that about a Sansa chapter. With that being said Mormonts raven didnt even have a POV and its done more in it's few small page appearances than Sansa has done the entire series with a POV. She has a thread dedicated to her and what little she has done so far and it's been re-made 9 times. With what old beaky is doing he could get well over 20 threads about him and his future in the nights wat ch and his role to play in the upcoming battle against the others. I'm thinking Mormonts raven could be a major player. If he sticks with Bloodraven he could change the game. He has so much potential.

[redriver]

In Jon's next chapter,the NW have reached Whitetree,an abandoned Wildling village,named after the huge weirwood at it's center.

Mormont comments that the tree looks old.

"Old,"Mormont's raven agreed from his shoulder,"old,old,old"

Nothing dramatic here.The tree is old.The word is a repetition.

Jon reveals some weirwood lore."My lord father believed no man could tell a lie in front of a heart tree.The old gods know when a man is lying."

Perhaps the use of the word "old" made Jon think of the old gods,but why would you lie to a tree?Or talk to it in the first place?

Subliminal suggestion of heart tree=old gods?

Anyhow, Mormont orders a search of the village for clues of what happened to the inhabitants.Jon and Dolorous pair up but find nothing.

"Gone," cried Mormont's raven,"gone,gone,gone."Well,it's obvious that the villagers are gone,but this is the second time the bird uses a word not repeated.Clever bird,or controlled?

And to further the autosuggestion angle,Mormont writes a note to Castle Black saying the villagers have "gone".Having done that,Mormont whistles and his raven lands on his horse's head and suggests "Corn."

Is this a future dead horse in the story?

[Lady Octarina]

And to further the autosuggestion angle,Mormont writes a note to Castle Black saying the villagers have "gone".Having done that,Mormont whistles and his raven lands on his horse's head and suggests "Corn."

Is this a future dead horse in the story?

None significant, as far as I remember (except perhaps the "pale mare"?), but couldn't this be referring to the villagers' death, or even Mormont's, since it was his horse?

[Rohed]

Jon reveals some weirwood lore."My lord father believed no man could tell a lie in front of a heart tree.The old gods know when a man is lying."

Is this a connection to FM? link between them and the old gods? or mabie the raven's words refer to somthing in Arya's chapter

[redriver]

None significant, as far as I remember (except perhaps the "pale mare"?), but couldn't this be referring to the villagers' death, or even Mormont's, since it was his horse?

Yes ,I think Mormont's horse dies on the attack on the Fist.

Is this a connection to FM? link between them and the old gods? or mabie the raven's words refer to somthing in Arya's chapter

Perhaps all of the above.But it's easy to over read things.As an example,you will read many instances where a character says "A man says"-doesn't mean it's FM.

[The Mother of The Others]

Is this [the ability to know when others are lying] a link between FM and the old gods [whose trees have that power]?

Whoa, there's weirwood present in the Black&White temple too. As furniture (or was it a carved doorway decoration?).

That's something I've totally forgotten to ponder. I bet they know the magical import of weirwood and are "using" it to their best advantage.

It's possible the FM are collecting skills & powers from various sources, doing for real what the Khalasars only make a symbolic show of doing when they steal god statues and cart them back to Vaes. The FM may be taking it a step further. Instead of "dominating and dishonoring" the gods of other nations, what if the FM are somehow managing to "infiltrate and incorporate" the various Powers of the world? What if their philosophical approach is paying off?---> Treat all gods as one, meaning that you should be able to mentally make yourself a "true" member of any culture, since by definition you believe in their god(s) because you believe in ALL gods (like Arya's faceless man seemed to truly honor the fire god as a believer would have). And then the FM finagle their way into the inner sanctum of all these cultures they visit (like how they're in the Citadel!!!!!) and they take 'the good stuff' (the core secrets of each region, like any magic they encounter that actually works). They make it all a part of their repertoire, like the Borg did! In other words they're using this all-gods-are-one mumbo jumbo to put themselves into the right mental state so that each land's natives find them trustworthy. It's the ultimate con. Or as Puff Daddy says in Get Him to the Greek, it's the ultimate mind fuck. It's the trick to becoming the world's most connected organization. The kinky part is that it's also NOT a con. They really do become the thing they imitate. Jaquen really was beholden to Arya according to whatever ethic he was following. Because by the time you remove all the signs of lying from your body language..... you're not lying anymore? You're believing what you're saying in order to make it believable and to pass the lie detector test. Kinky.

EDIT: what the hell am I talking about! They weren't using the weirwood to detect lies, they were using the deeply non-magical skill of monitoring body language so closely that it took Arya a whole book to learn the trick of it.

Still..... the Faceless Men are collectors of all things useful, including magic, since they do have weirwood on hand, they do have a variety of magics, they gather rare substances for their poison collection, they have a variety of con artist skills, the Kindly Man rewards any new intel Arya gathers, etc.