Mormonts Raven-a re-read

[redriver]

` I've asked previously how early the bird was being warged? I was relating it to the conversation in ACoK between LC Mormont and Jon Snow about Benjen at the Fist of the First Men. I won't jump ahead as you want to proceed chronologically, not to mention how confusing it would be if we were all over the place with examples.

I'll keep checking the thread as it's updated.

It's amazing what we discover during a reread (I'm currently on my second reading of ACoK).

We know about warging,but we don't get a hint that Bloodraven is still in the equation until later in the series.

Benjen could still be a player,at this point,and a more likely candidate.We are still in AGOT.

[The Fallen]

` I might agree with FittleLinger. I didn't pay the raven much attention initially, but now I think he's warged as soon as we meet it. I mean, let's face it, what other reason would there be for a raven as a pet in this story? Not to mention one who is involved in a lot of major plot lines.

[FittleLinger]

` I might agree with FittleLinger. I didn't pay the raven much attention initially, but now I think he's warged as soon as we meet it. I mean, let's face it, what other reason would there be for a raven as a pet in this story? Not to mention one who is involved in a lot of major plot lines.

Well, it kind of had a point in the story to me when we didn't know about Bloodraven and warging. First - to show ravens' intelligence and why they are used as messengers. Then - you later find out ravens (okay, crows) are associated with nights watch. They're even both black. Ravens feed on the dead - we got an encounter with wights. And then, for pure richness - the Stark kids are not the only ones who have distinct "pets".

But then - Boom, goes the dynamite. Martin shows us that again, it works on multiple levels, and there is much and more going on with this than we've expected. Oh you, George...

[geogus]

I suspect both Bloodraven and Mormont were warging the crow. The crow pecking Mormonts face after his death is a tell.

Didint get your point about the crow pecking mormont´s face

[Lady Katherine]

Has anyone ever taken everything the raven has ever said and put it all together in one long sentence? I feel like there would be some mind blowing cryptic message there...

[Sterling]

for the hell of it i googled meaning of corn i got:

Corn ¹ Definition: A thickening of the epidermis at some point, esp. on the toes, by friction or pressure. It is usually painful and troublesome.

cracky potty!!

I KNOW! its talking about corns on the feet or whatever.. but the whole ice armour dream.. and the definition useing friction or pressure brings to mind the fact that it took Bran an event before he could open his third eye, and what we can see with Jon and the theory of his stabbing will cause him to gain his true power/ability.

Corn could possibly just be a forshadow that an event with "friction/pressure" will cause an outcome. Do we only hear the Raven in Jon's POV ?

Hell yeah so now we know whoever is controlling Mormont's raven has a bad case of foot fungus! It's all starting to make since now..

[Fire Eater]

Bloodraven states that all the ravens in the cave have CotF that are long dead in them. I would like to know where Mormont got his raven. The minds of some wargs or CotF long dead could dwell within the raven.

[FittleLinger]

Bloodraven states that all the ravens in the cave have CotF that are long dead in them. I would like to know where Mormont got his raven. The minds of some wargs or CotF long dead could dwell within the raven.

I think maybe only Aemon could've known the story of this particular raven (and maybe Mormont himself too), so I don't think we'll get a chance to know.

[redriver]

Cracking on then,the next meeting is in Jon's next POV.Most of the chapter is a three way dialogue between Mormont.Jon and,erm,the raven.

To set some context,they are discussing the wight attack,and later,Mormont presents Jon with Longclaw,by way of thanks.

"Are you well,Snow?",Lord Mormont asked,scowling.

"Well",his raven squorked "well,well".Here,the raven picks out the word "well" rather than the last word "snow".We learn in ASOS that the weirwood door at the Nightfort is down a well.

Later Jon asks if there is any word of his father.

"Father""taunted the old raven,bobbing it's head as it walked across Mormont's shoulders."Father".

We wonder here whether the bird is "taunting" Jon, or raising the possibility that Eddard is not Jon's father.

Mormont is clearly annoyed by the bird's latest input because he "reached up to pinch it's beak shut,but the raven hopped up on his head,fluttered it's wings,and flew across the chamber to a light above the window.""Grief and noise"",Mormont grumbled.""That's all they're good for,ravens.Why I put up with that pestilential bird......""."-Why indeed?

But there clearly is a bond,as we see later.

Mormont-"We have white shadows in the woods and unquiet dead stalking our halls,and a boy sits the Iron Throne".

"The raven laughed shrilly,"Boy,boy, boy ,boy"?Laughed?Taunting Joffrey,Jon or alluding to Bran?Or all of the above?

Jon ponders whether he should be at the Wall or fighting with Robb.

"Corn",the raven was crying,"corn,corn"Perhaps this is raven speak for nonsense or drivel?It is one meaning of the word,after all.

Is the bird privy to Jon's thoughts?

Mormont tells the bird to be quiet,and then presents Jon with Longclaw.

"The raven flapped down and landed on the table,strutting towards the sword,it's head cocked curiously".-The raven is fascinated by a Valyrian sword.

Mormont urges Jon to take it."Take it",echoed his bird,preening."Take it".

So the bird is urging Jon to accept a Valyrian sword.Why would Jon need one of those?Maybe to kill wights,Others or his Nissa Nissa,We are now getting a sense of "ignore this bird at your peril!".

The last reference to the raven in this chapter is when Mormont asks Jon to order his supper,warning him not to serve boild mutton again."Even the bird wouldn't touch it.He stroked the raven's head with his thumb,and the bird made a contented squorking sound".

And so we leave Mormont showing affection to a "pestilential" bird,and a content bird,now that Jon has Longclaw?

[geogus]

And so we leave Mormont showing affection to a "pestilential" bird,and a content bird,now that Jon has Longclaw?

are u trying to say that the raven influenced mormont to give longvlaw to Jon, agains his own will?

[Rohed]

Any chance that Aemon was the one warging with it?

He was wise and would have known of warging, as well as spending time with Bloodraven. The raven seems adds input as a wise measter would (however strange it seems by the raven)

or is there someone else thats soul could be in it (as COTF are i the raven's they have warged) but a non COTF character that would be important to the story?

[redriver]

are u trying to say that the raven influenced mormont to give longvlaw to Jon, agains his own will?

No,I'm saying the bird urged Jon to accept it.

[FittleLinger]

Any chance that Aemon was the one warging with it?

He was wise and would have known of warging, as well as spending time with Bloodraven. The raven seems adds input as a wise measter would (however strange it seems by the raven)

or is there someone else thats soul could be in it (as COTF are i the raven's they have warged) but a non COTF character that would be important to the story?

I'd say no chance. First, why would he have warging abilities. Then, warging will get really overused and cheapen. And third, why bother, and not just give him the advice himself? Jon would most certainly listen to the wisest man in the realm, who he has utmost respect to, than a bird that squeeks one word at a time, whose significance we learn about at the end of the fifth book.

Otherwise, excellent analysis redriver. The well thing especially - as I was reading your post, when you got to that, I was like, "Well, do we have an actual well anywhere?", and in your next words you explained - the COTF cave well. Really good.

About "Father" - yep, I think it was trying to say Ned isn't Jon's father, and also - that Jon's father is really important - the thing that makes Jon special.

Keep it coming!

[redriver]

I missed out a couple in that previous chapter.

The raven echoes Mormont -"Who will,who will"

Mormont says the sword is called Longclaw-"Claw"the raven cried."

Claw".

And after Mormont explains that he has sent Thorne to King's Landing-"Crow".Jon thought the raven sounded faintly indignant.

Will collate all the vocabulary after the last AGOT chapter.

[FittleLinger]

One more thing on the "well". Now, just to warn you - this goes even beyond reaching. But, it's said that in Dorne water sources are precious, and any buildings, castles and habitable areas are most likely built on or close to such a source. Someone pointed that the Tower of Joy should have had such access, since it was a secret location and it would be really inconvenient to send for water every now and then. Also - who would they send? So, it's most likely that it was built on a water source (well). So - another far and subtle hinting to Jon's heritage.

As I said - it's beyond reaching, but still, interesting I think.

[FittleLinger]

The raven echoes Mormont -"Who will,who will"

Who will? Robb's will? Rhaegar's will (maybe not a written will, but still - Jon's Rhaegar's heritage, protecting and hiding him was his and Lyanna's WILL). And finally - Who will tell you about your true heritage once Ned's dead?

[LSB]

Awseome thread :)

We next meet the creature in Tyrion's POV.He is being wined and dined by the NW High Command before he leaves the Wall.

Tyrion is mocking Ser Alliser.He pokes him in the chest with a crab fork and asks,"shall we duel?".Everyone laughs and the bird joins in,crying "

duel,duel,duel".

Again,this is a repetition of Tyrion's last word,so still in parrot mode it seems.

Later in the chapter,Mormont is lamenting having sent Waymar Royce out ranging,saying-"More fool I".

"Fool" the raven agreed.Tyrion glanced up.The bird peered down at him with those beady black eyes,ruffling it's wings."Fool",it called again.

I just wonder if the above passage could be seen as foreshadowing of Tyrion jousting with Penny while dressed as a fool?

[Xango]

Pretty crazy that Martin had a character speaking to us that he didn't even introduce until 4 books later, though he probably had BR planned for book 3 at that point, seeing as it was originally a trilogy.

[Catacombs]

The idea that BR is warging Mormont's Raven seems right to me, but there is another possibility. It could be one of the CotF. In ADWD after Bran wargs his first Raven there is this exchange:

Then he realized he was not alone. “Someone else was in the raven,” he told Lord Brynden, once

he had returned to his own skin. “Some girl. I felt her.”

“A woman, of those who sing the song of earth,” his teacher said. “Long dead, yet a part of her

remains, just as a part of you would remain in Summer if your boy’s flesh were to die upon the morrow.

A shadow on the soul. She will not harm you.”

“Do all the birds have singers in them?”

“All,” Lord Brynden said. “It was the singers who taught the First Men to send messages by

raven … but in those days, the birds would speak the words. The trees remember, but men forget, and

so now they write the messages on parchment and tie them round the feet of birds who have never

shared their skin.”

Not all the singers are dead. Bran saw quite a few in a state similar to BR. One of these could be speaking through Mormont's Raven, especially if you buy into the idea that BP and the CotF are working together towards some end.

OTOH it could just be BR, Bran or both warging a bird with a long dead singer inside it

Mormont's Raven strikes me as an old bird with a very long and deep backstory. Nice topic. Thanks.

[plurabel]

I wonder when GRRM started planning the extension of the original trilogy. Some characters that showed up later were then not planned from the start. But yeah, I'd say BR and CoTF stuff was probably planned way ahead and may just be one of the cornerstones of the whole ASoIaF saga. In the beginning of AGoT we already get Nan's stories involving CoTF and how they watched through the trees and lived on hollow hills and spoke with animals and sang sad songs. Well, we do now know about the caves and the weirnet (watching events go by through the trees) and even the whole rustling of leaves suggesting words (the gods' speak) etc.