Mormonts Raven-a re-read

[Xango]

I wonder when GRRM started planning the extension of the original trilogy. Some characters that showed up later were then not planned from the start. But yeah, I'd say BR and CoTF stuff was probably planned way ahead and may just be one of the cornerstones of the whole ASoIaF saga. In the beginning of AGoT we already get Nan's stories involving CoTF and how they watched through the trees and lived on hollow hills and spoke with animals and sang sad songs. Well, we do now know about the caves and the weirnet (watching events go by through the trees) and even the whole rustling of leaves suggesting words (the gods' speak) etc.

Without a doubt. He has said a few times that he had the major points of the main characters planned from the get go, Bran being one of them. He planned Bran going north, and even if BR was added later he had some sort of green seer planned from the start, so it doesn't really matter.

What I find interesting is how the story kinda forgets about north of the wall at times, or at least it felt like it to me. GoT was filled with people talking about Others and CotF and the old stories...the Others make an appearance right at the start too, and a wight later on. The latter books you see a lot less of it, unless I'm remembering incorrectly. Seems like in his original trilogy book 1 set up the north, book 2 would focus more on seven kingdoms, and then book 3 would have the big events in the north...but as he added more and more in, the gap between his ideas for books 1 and 3 got spread out further and further. Case in point at series end we'll probably be saying how the Others are in the first few pages of the series, once again 2 books later, and then only appear in the last 2 books. Seems weird.

[Blisscraft]

Well done RD! Would only add to your latest post about the bird saying, "Father" as he walks along LC Mormont's shoulders that he may also be refering to Mormont as a father (to Jorah and his sister), as well as a "father figure" to Jon.

[Catacombs]

How old is Mormont's Raven? I get the impression that some Ravens live for a very long time.

How long has this Raven lived with the LC of the NW? We know that he became Jon's Raven after Mormont died. How many other LCs did this Raven live with?

Was he LC Qorgyle's Raven before he was Mormont's Raven? Was he LC Bloodraven's raven before he was Qorgyle's?

Was there something BR learned from this bird that sent him to the CotF?

[FittleLinger]

How old is Mormont's Raven? I get the impression that some Ravens live for a very long time.

How long has this Raven lived with the LC of the NW? We know that he became Jon's Raven after Mormont died. How many other LCs did this Raven live with?

Was he LC Qorgyle's Raven before he was Mormont's Raven? Was he LC Bloodraven's raven before he was Qorgyle's?

Was there something BR learned from this bird that sent him to the CotF?

We don't really have any evidence to answer any of those questions, I think.

[Amitaibs3]

Without a doubt. He has said a few times that he had the major points of the main characters planned from the get go, Bran being one of them. He planned Bran going north, and even if BR was added later he had some sort of green seer planned from the start, so it doesn't really matter.

What I find interesting is how the story kinda forgets about north of the wall at times, or at least it felt like it to me. GoT was filled with people talking about Others and CotF and the old stories...the Others make an appearance right at the start too, and a wight later on. The latter books you see a lot less of it, unless I'm remembering incorrectly. Seems like in his original trilogy book 1 set up the north, book 2 would focus more on seven kingdoms, and then book 3 would have the big events in the north...but as he added more and more in, the gap between his ideas for books 1 and 3 got spread out further and further. Case in point at series end we'll probably be saying how the Others are in the first few pages of the series, once again 2 books later, and then only appear in the last 2 books. Seems weird.

I'm almost certain the first three books should have been -

a Game of Thrones - what we know.

a Dance with Dragons - The arrival of dany

the Winds of Winter - The fight with the others.

I also believe the story being expended is because martin got tired of his original characters(NOT INCLUDING aCoK&aSoS, talking about the fist and the dance)...

As for Mormonts raven being warged... Well, I don't know. For me it might be too far fetched, but I won't be surprised if it turns out to be right. This raven knows a lot. lol.

[redriver]

So now we reach the last Jon POV in AGOT.Jon has ridden south meaning to support his half-brother Robb,but is persuaded to return by his NW brothers.

The next morning Jon enters Mormont's rooms.

"Corn,corn,corn".The bird shrieked,when Jon entered.

Mormont refers to Jon's moonlit ride south.Jon says "You know?"

"Know!",the raven echoed from Mormont's shoulder."Know?"A strange switch from an exclamation mark to a question mark.A listener might also interpret this as "no".

Jon tells Mormont he is not afraid to die.

"Die!",the raven replied.Who?Mormont,Jon or both?

Mormont lists reasons why he should investigate what's beyond the Wall,including finding Benjen.

"Ben jen,ben jen"the raven squorked..bits of egg dribbling from it's beak.The first time it's mentioned a name.Egg?Dunc and.........

"Do you think your brothers war is more important than ours?",the old man barked.

"War,war,war" it sang.Foreshadowing the war of the Five Kings or another,more important war?

Mormont says Eddard has sent Jon to the NW,"Why,I cannot say"

Why?,why?,why?,the raven called.

We don't know,maybe the raven does.

[Rohed]

Ben, Jen.. Is there a Jen we know ? Ben + Jen ? (made Jon in his brother's war and that why he joined the NW?)

Didnt Aemon mention comming to the wall with Egg? Mabie a clue to something.. Or link to BR. Most act that BR is common knowledge but those who have only read asoiaf dont know much about him, so this could all be links to combine gim into the story.

[redriver]

That's the AGOT part of the reread done.I don't think there's enough evidence to prove the bird is warged,but there is enough to suggest it.The "burn" line is the biggest giveaway so far.

I love the idea that the bird was foreshadowing Tyrion's arc,a nice catch.

Here's a list of the bird's vocabulary in sequential order-

Corn

Live

Duel

Fool

Corn

Sit

Black

Corn

Burn

Well

Father

Boy

Corn

Take it

Who will

Claw

Crow

Corn

Know

Die

Ben Jen

War

Why

Make of that what you will!!

[Fire Eater]

Mormont says Eddard has sent Jon to the NW,"Why,I cannot say"

Why?,why?,why?,the raven called.

We don't know,maybe the raven does.

A good question, why was Jon sent to the Wall? Not why did Eddard send him, but why fate sent him?

[Bushido]

Maybe the raven was exasperated at Cat's sheer hindsight :)

[Sanset]

Well done RD! Would only add to your latest post about the bird saying, "Father" as he walks along LC Mormont's shoulders that he may also be refering to Mormont as a father (to Jorah and his sister), as well as a "father figure" to Jon.

And we can see how Jeor Mormont is not bitter with Jon because of the problems between Eddard and Jorah. Old Bear always treats Jon right.

[FittleLinger]

A good question, why was Jon sent to the Wall? Not why did Eddard send him, but why fate sent him?

Getting a little bit into heresy here, I think why Eddard sent him and why fate sent him kind of overlap as reasons. Eddard sent him, because he is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar bla bla (or Ned's bastard), to keep him safe, and it wouldn't raise suspicion - a Stark bastard, always welcome and natural at the Wall.

Fate - at first (chronologically) to meet him with maester Aemon, who tells him his story, to try to escape, and realize that's not the right thing, to have all of his adventures (not going to go deep inside, although there are interesting things to note), and then to realize his real purpose and position - not to seek the throne, for his real battle is much more important (Aemon paralel again).

[The Fallen]

` I'm currently rereading A Clash of Kings and just finished the chapter where Jon and Quorin and his men are at the Frostfangs. This is regarding Bloodraven more so than the raven. When Jon has his wolfdream he sees a weirwood tree with Bran's face (including the three eyes) and he's even told he needs to open his own third eye. Is this Bloodraven? It can't be Bran as he's still at Winterfell and doesn't yet posses the ability to use the weirnet. And if it is Bloodraven, why is he reaching out (in?) to Jon?

[nenya~]

` I'm currently rereading A Clash of Kings and just finished the chapter where Jon and Quorin and his men are at the Frostfangs. This is regarding Bloodraven more so than the raven. When Jon has his wolfdream he sees a weirwood tree with Bran's face (including the three eyes) and he's even told he needs to open his own third eye. Is this Bloodraven? It can't be Bran as he's still at Winterfell and doesn't yet posses the ability to use the weirnet. And if it is Bloodraven, why is he reaching out (in?) to Jon?

Bran mentions in his last chapter that he talks to Jon after he's able to open his third eye.

"Here in the chill damp darkness of the tomb his third eye had finally opened. He could reach Summer whenever he wanted, and once he had even touched Ghost and talked to Jon."

[The Fallen]

Bran mentions in his last chapter that he talks to Jon after he's able to open his third eye.

Nice. So that was him and not Bloodraven, because he's actually down in the crypts during this time. I didn't realize he was able to do it that early.

[SillyFox]

If I remember correctly the weirnet gives somekind of ability so the one using it can see the past events trough it.

Somekind of time machine that goes only to the past, or something like that.

[FittleLinger]

Nice. So that was him and not Bloodraven, because he's actually down in the crypts during this time. I didn't realize he was able to do it that early.

He wasn't. Two ways to look at that, and the whole thing is confusing, because of the time-machine thing.

Past cannot be changed. That we know from either the children or BR, don't remember exactly, doesn't matter. I think Bran can only see past, but not "talk" to people from the past like he could to Theon through the weirwood. Same goes with dreams I think, I don't think he could intervene in people's past dreams. It could be BR - if we assume that BR was warging the raven who was "advising" Jon (eg to burn the wight), then he could easily go inside his dream as well.

We have another possibility, and it's if we've already excluded the "Bran from the future" (and Bran from the future is not impossible, mind you). Down, in WF's crypts - a dark, cold underground place, WF infused with magic - people even suggested there's a CotF headquarters under WF, the place is not much unlike BR's cave. Maybe Bran's powers manifested, and it was really Bran.

My mind is full of f***. I can handle anything but time paradoxes :D

[SillyFox]

He wasn't. Two ways to look at that, and the whole thing is confusing, because of the time-machine thing.

Past cannot be changed. That we know from either the children or BR, don't remember exactly, doesn't matter. I think Bran can only see past, but not "talk" to people from the past like he could to Theon through the weirwood. Same goes with dreams I think, I don't think he could intervene in people's past dreams. It could be BR - if we assume that BR was warging the raven who was "advising" Jon (eg to burn the wight), then he could easily go inside his dream as well.

We have another possibility, and it's if we've already excluded the "Bran from the future" (and Bran from the future is not impossible, mind you). Down, in WF's crypts - a dark, cold underground place, WF infused with magic - people even suggested there's a CotF headquarters under WF, the place is not much unlike BR's cave. Maybe Bran's powers manifested, and it was really Bran.

My mind is full of f***. I can handle anything but time paradoxes :D

Well, I agree with they can't change the past part.

But actually when Bran seeing the past trough it, in the actual past itself Jon could see that Bran is in it,

this actually doesn't go against the rule you can't change the past. It just mean that Bran is actually time travelling trough the weirwood and Jon can see him when Bran do that in that exact same weirwood.

Thats how I see it myself, feel free to disagree.

edit:

this time paradox thing is indeed confusing. I'm even confused reading my own post :bang:

[FittleLinger]

.edit:

this time paradox thing is indeed confusing. I'm even confused reading my own post :bang:

I know, I had the exact same feeling reading my post (yours as well :D)

Just to be clear - Jon is seeing Bran travelling through time, as in if Bran, say, had never got to BR and the weirwood cave, Jon wouldn't have seen weirwood Bran in his past dream. Is that what you're saying?

[SillyFox]

I know, I had the exact same feeling reading my post (yours as well :D)

Just to be clear - Jon is seeing Bran travelling through time, as in if Bran, say, had never got to BR and the weirwood cave, Jon wouldn't have seen weirwood Bran in his past dream. Is that what you're saying?

Yes, I think he wouldn't see Bran in his wolfs dream if thats to happen.