Cloud Atlas

[janne123g]

I think Zachry's section was easier to read than janne123g's posts. :uhoh:

lol u didn't have to read them if they weren't to ur liking....:-) btw, i totally loved how zachry's story was all in vernacular and didn't have any trouble with it...

[janne123g]

Maybe it's because I just re-read the Sonmi sections, but I saw how Nea So Copros could collapse. Dissatisfaction and anger are stewing in the slums of downstrata and illegal immigrants, pollution is creeping into the country past the "cordon", the regime is extracting more and more wealth from the populace through the Enrichment Statutes, and the whole society is becoming completely dependent on Fabricants to do everything - and it's still described as not being enough, which is why the Juche is risking potential disruptions among the Fabricants through the ascension process. In order to carry out their "dissolve the downstrata" plot, they need Fabricants who can do more than repetitive manual labor- they need Fabricants who can do stuff like Boom-Sook. Those are also Fabricants who can think and understand things, like Sonmi's Declarations (which the state is described as becoming more and more paranoid as it keeps finding copies in the hands of Fabricants).

Moreover, considering the Archivist's horrified reaction to finding out what "Xultation" actually is, I think it's clear that acceptance of the treatment of Fabricants was in part based on apathy and ignorance on the part of the purebloods. As long as the butchery was happening out of sight, they could just ignore any indications otherwise and take the Juche's lies about Xultation at face value. But the show trial, the Declarations, and ultimately (I suspect) Sonmi's leaked Orison openly showed the regime's predatory nature to the populace, something that was then reinforced with even more repression and the "Fabricant Xpiry Act".

And once the purebloods got the "spark of conscience" mentioned by Adam Ewing in part 2, and started questioning and potentially disrupting the carefully maintained "state pyramid", it was all over. Any serious dissent or regime weakness likely exploded into full blown violence and revolution as all the grievances of the downstrata and ascended Fabricants came out. Since the survival of the country itself and protection from the expanding deadlands was dependent on that order working precisely in the face of ecological collapse, the failure of that system caused the deadlands to move in with a vengeance, and everyone died (Meronym describes Nea So Copros as being a deadland).

Personally, Sonmi's sections were my favorite in the whole book. In many ways, she's the most self-aware character out of the six, even Zach'ry (who grasps the idea of the "atlas of clouds", but still blames bad behavior and the like on "Old Georgie"). Nea So Copros doesn't strike me as being a likely future society, but it's still fascinating because literally every aspect of it is predatory from top to bottom.

I think the movie is going to play up the whole "soul-mates across time" thing, as opposed to the book's main theme about Predacity.

As for the structure of the book, I didn't grasp the pyramid-like nature of it until I heard Mitchell's quote about "individuals preying upon individuals, groups upon groups, nations upon nations".

That's exactly why the ending of the story 5 makes no sense - why would the govt trigger it's own collapse? the whole scheme seems pretty farfetched and wanting in logic. Why in the world would the govt ascend the fabricants instead of hiding them and maintaining the populace ignorant, let alone allowing them to learn the whole truth thru the declarations? no evil govt would ever do such stupid thing... this plot development seems completely forced to me...not to mention the grief of turning the most decent person in the story into a villain (when this happens with dr goose it's not shocking because he previously displayed some cynicism and lack of moral compass, while haejoo im literally seems like the last hope for thst society and raises hopes of a possibility of revolution, as we know from history no revolution can take place without a charismatic leader who can unite ppl in their common goal) this ending goes against the rules of any genre...

ya i agree, Sonmi is a very self aware character, and this is where Mitchell actally does a good job showing the evolution of the soul - from decent but passive ewing who is only interested in saving himself - to confused and misguided RF (I personally think it's Jocasta who should have been the reincarnation not him) - to Louisa whose soul has matured who is willing to give her life and does risk it for the common good, - to Sonmi who spends her life advancing herself and sacrifices herself for the greater good, and finally to Meronym who is the most mature and refined in the stage of soul development who tries to save more than just her own society...

[Lightning Lord]

The government didn't knowingly trigger its own collapse. I don't remember an indication of time between Sonmi's story and The Fall. Was there a timeline? If not, for all we know, it was centuries later and unrelated. The government made the fabricants appear to be security concerns and worthy of suspicion. It might not have been a perfect gambit, but it also made fabricants the Enemy and the populace more controlled.

[Spring Bass]

I think Meronym says it's been "centuries" since the Fall at one point, but I'm not 100% on that.

That's exactly why the ending of the story 5 makes no sense - why would the govt trigger it's own collapse? the whole scheme seems pretty farfetched and wanting in logic. Why in the world would the govt ascend the fabricants instead of hiding them and maintaining the populace ignorant, let alone allowing them to learn the whole truth thru the declarations? no evil govt would ever do such stupid thing... this plot development seems completely forced to me...not to mention the grief of turning the most decent person in the story into a villain (when this happens with dr goose it's not shocking because he previously displayed some cynicism and lack of moral compass, while haejoo im literally seems like the last hope for thst society and raises hopes of a possibility of revolution, as we know from history no revolution can take place without a charismatic leader who can unite ppl in their common goal) this ending goes against the rules of any genre...

The government didn't deliberately try to trigger its own collapse. Its goal was to create greater hostility and fear of possible Fabricant rebellion among the purebloods, allowing them to pass laws designed to further control said Fabricants (including the new ascended Fabricants that they were triggering). They knew that this was possible, since the incident where Yoona-939 grabbed the kid in McDonald's Papa Song terrified the purebloods and led to greater repressive laws. There's also real-life historical precedent for that happening - after the Nat Turner and other slave rebellions in the 19th century American South, the South responded by passing tighter and harsher laws controlling slaves, manumission, and so forth.

As for why they ascended them, Sonmi says it outright in Part 2: the existing system was starting to shrivel up. The deepening impoverishment and sickness among the downstrata purebloods was building up resentment and anger in the slums that could explode into revolution, and also destroying the tax base/consumer base that the Corpocracy depended on for wealth and revenue (hence the increased Enrichment Statutes, which were more or less forced transfers of wealth to the Xecs and regime through forced spending on a pre-selected mix of consumer goods). A system that depended on the acquiescence of the downstrata purebloods (still the majority of purebloods) was a system that was going to eventually fall apart.

Rather than reform, the regime was hoping that they could effectively replace the downstrata purebloods with an entire caste of Fabricants - basically, a small aristocracy of Xecs atop a vast pyramid of Fabricants. Those Fabricants would be easier to control due to their dependence on both Soap and society to breed. The problem is that in order to get there, they needed the downstrata purebloods to be focusing their anger and fear outward, against the Fabricants instead of at the regime.

Like I said, they miscalculated. In the short run, it let them pass more restrictive and harsh laws controlling Fabricants, but in the longer run exposing the openly predatory nature of the system created opposition among people like the Archivist, who believed that forcing Fabricants to work only to re-process them into other stuff was monstrous. It also put dangerous materials in the hands of ascending Fabricants, which the Juche then struggled to repress.

As for Hae-Joo, he presumably had his reasons (Sonmi never says how she found out that he was "certainly" a provocateur, but I wouldn't be shocked if it happened at the trial). Chairman Mephi mentions at one point that dissidents - those "who lust after foreign creeds" - tend to make the best Unanimity agents, although he doesn't really explain why.

ya i agree, Sonmi is a very self aware character, and this is where Mitchell actally does a good job showing the evolution of the soul - from decent but passive ewing who is only interested in saving himself - to confused and misguided RF (I personally think it's Jocasta who should have been the reincarnation not him) - to Louisa whose soul has matured who is willing to give her life and does risk it for the common good, - to Sonmi who spends her life advancing herself and sacrifices herself for the greater good, and finally to Meronym who is the most mature and refined in the stage of soul development who tries to save more than just her own society...

Cavendish actually fits in there as well. Compare him to Frobisher - whereas Frobisher couldn't go on after the ruination of his scheming and hopes with Eva and Ayers and gave up by committing suicide, Cavendish pulled himself back from the brink after contemplating hanging himself, and ultimately managed to escape and find a new path back to success (with an autobiography and film that was apparently famous in the 21st century).

The particularly sad thing about Frobisher is that he didn't realize the advantage he had over Ayers, in the form of his youth. He's got decades to build up his reputation, while Ayers is a sick, dying old man. Even if Ayers tried to ruin his reputation in the present, Frobisher could re-build it after Ayers' death.

[janne123g]

I think Meronym says it's been "centuries" since the Fall at one point, but I'm not 100% on that.

The government didn't deliberately try to trigger its own collapse. Its goal was to create greater hostility and fear of possible Fabricant rebellion among the purebloods, allowing them to pass laws designed to further control said Fabricants (including the new ascended Fabricants that they were triggering). They knew that this was possible, since the incident where Yoona-939 grabbed the kid in McDonald's Papa Song terrified the purebloods and led to greater repressive laws. There's also real-life historical precedent for that happening - after the Nat Turner and other slave rebellions in the 19th century American South, the South responded by passing tighter and harsher laws controlling slaves, manumission, and so forth.

As for why they ascended them, Sonmi says it outright in Part 2: the existing system was starting to shrivel up. The deepening impoverishment and sickness among the downstrata purebloods was building up resentment and anger in the slums that could explode into revolution, and also destroying the tax base/consumer base that the Corpocracy depended on for wealth and revenue (hence the increased Enrichment Statutes, which were more or less forced transfers of wealth to the Xecs and regime through forced spending on a pre-selected mix of consumer goods). A system that depended on the acquiescence of the downstrata purebloods (still the majority of purebloods) was a system that was going to eventually fall apart.

Rather than reform, the regime was hoping that they could effectively replace the downstrata purebloods with an entire caste of Fabricants - basically, a small aristocracy of Xecs atop a vast pyramid of Fabricants. Those Fabricants would be easier to control due to their dependence on both Soap and society to breed. The problem is that in order to get there, they needed the downstrata purebloods to be focusing their anger and fear outward, against the Fabricants instead of at the regime.

Like I said, they miscalculated. In the short run, it let them pass more restrictive and harsh laws controlling Fabricants, but in the longer run exposing the openly predatory nature of the system created opposition among people like the Archivist, who believed that forcing Fabricants to work only to re-process them into other stuff was monstrous. It also put dangerous materials in the hands of ascending Fabricants, which the Juche then struggled to repress.

As for Hae-Joo, he presumably had his reasons (Sonmi never says how she found out that he was "certainly" a provocateur, but I wouldn't be shocked if it happened at the trial). Chairman Mephi mentions at one point that dissidents - those "who lust after foreign creeds" - tend to make the best Unanimity agents, although he doesn't really explain why.

Cavendish actually fits in there as well. Compare him to Frobisher - whereas Frobisher couldn't go on after the ruination of his scheming and hopes with Eva and Ayers and gave up by committing suicide, Cavendish pulled himself back from the brink after contemplating hanging himself, and ultimately managed to escape and find a new path back to success (with an autobiography and film that was apparently famous in the 21st century).

The particularly sad thing about Frobisher is that he didn't realize the advantage he had over Ayers, in the form of his youth. He's got decades to build up his reputation, while Ayers is a sick, dying old man. Even if Ayers tried to ruin his reputation in the present, Frobisher could re-build it after Ayers' death.

lol i understand they didn't 'deliberately trigger the collapse', my point was: why would the govt create and implement a scheme in which the risks clearly outweigh the benefits which is likely to trigger it's own collapse if something goes wrong (and any 7th grader has enough brain power to c that) - this is why i question the writer's choice of such plot development...let alone turning haejoo's character 180 degrees and not explaining why... i did like your examples from the text and kudos for paying such close attention to detail but i'm still not convinced because there is no indication in the story of how and when ( if at all) the predator eats itself - all we can infer from the text is that society is a deadland centuries later and we don't know what caused it - for all that matters it could have been a deadly disease that got them and not at all the faulty social structure...

Cavendish does have similarities with RF (book thief, escapist, lack of moral values etc) but if he reincarnates after Louisa he would actually b a step down for that soul (being a coward and a scumbag with a sense of entitlement), so it would have been a lot more logical to switch 3 and 4 and have Cavendish live after RF but b4 Louisa...

p.s. RF didn't kill himself because ayrs threatened his reputation or eva didn't return his affections, he did it because his life no longer made sense and he came to the point where his existence becomes so intolerable he couldn't take it anymore...it's extremely subjective of course as his life was probably better than that of 95 % of earth population at the time, but he is introduced as a selfish asshole with questionalble moral values to us so in that light his choices are not so mystifying.

[janne123g]

I am having the same trouble. He just feels...out of place, somehow. I'm also having a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that, to Cavendish, Luisa is a fictional character. Yet, Luisa had the deja-vu when looking at the Prophetess and Sonmi had the "being inside a car and falling" deja-vu while escaping in the car, and Luisa had the "I've heard this music before" deja-vu upon hearing Frobisher's composition, so...?

The Frobisher-Cavendish connection is established via Nefretiti - Eva's horse and Mrs. Latham's earrings (given to her by Cavendish from the museum gift shop bargain bin), but that just feels kind of forced.

I'm not even sure if this post makes any sense; I'm trying to work this out and I'm kind of confused. :lol:

i think Cavendish does have similarities with RF (book thief, escapist, lack of moral values etc) but if he reincarnates after Louisa he would actually b a step down for that soul (being a coward and a scumbag with a sense of entitlement while Luisa was at a higher stage of soul development), so it would have been a lot more logical to switch 3 and 4 and have Cavendish live after RF but b4 Louisa and b part of the soul path...

as established in the book, if he lives in the same time as her, then his thinking that Luisa is a fictional character is not a big deal, at least i don't have a prob with that. e.g if i wrote a story about you and told everyone i made it up they would think you are a fictional character though u actually exist, so if Cavendish is not Luisa's reincarnation he would have no deja vus abt her and mitchell is just using a literary tool to move from one story to another...all in all i think the author should have spent a bit more time on creating valid plausible connections between the stories and should have been more consistent...but maybe i'm bothered by it because i'm a virgo and need everything to make logical sense...:-)

[Spring Bass]

lol i understand they didn't 'deliberately trigger the collapse', my point was: why would the govt create and implement a scheme in which the risks clearly outweigh the benefits which is likely to trigger it's own collapse if something goes wrong (and any 7th grader has enough brain power to c that) - this is why i question the writer's choice of such plot development...let alone turning haejoo's character 180 degrees and not explaining why... i did like your examples from the text and kudos for paying such close attention to detail but i'm still not convinced because there is no indication in the story of how and when ( if at all) the predator eats itself - all we can infer from the text is that society is a deadland centuries later and we don't know what caused it - for all that matters it could have been a deadly disease that got them and not at all the faulty social structure...

What makes you think that the risks "clearly outweigh" the benefits for the Juche? Remember that they were looking at the collapse of the social order of which they were sitting on top, and were desperate to keep their privileges and positions intact (and in denial over the fact that that was no longer possible). Moreover, they had precedent of using Fabricant rebellion as a justification for greater repression with the laws passed after the Yoona-939 incident, and they were in completely control of the situation from start to finish (Sonmi even implied that they had a bunch of ascendants, so if she died they could just use another one). As Sonmi says, they won a victory with the scheme, getting support for further repressive laws against the Fabricants. It was just that they didn't see the risk of what came after that end-game.

As for "how it eats itself", I pointed out up-thread several signs of potential disaster, stuff that could cause weakness in the regime to blow open into full-blown revolution. It's all self-inflicted, too.

With Hae-Joo, it's worth pointing out that we only know him from Sonmi's point of view, The only things we know about his background are what he tells Sonmi, and the only thing we can be sure of is that he was a Unanimity agent.

p.s. RF didn't kill himself because ayrs threatened his reputation or eva didn't return his affections, he did it because his life no longer made sense and he came to the point where his existence becomes so intolerable he couldn't take it anymore...it's extremely subjective of course as his life was probably better than that of 95 % of earth population at the time, but he is introduced as a selfish asshole with questionalble moral values to us so in that light his choices are not so mystifying.

The same thing was going on with Cavendish. He was so miserable that after his postcard was found and shredded, he came close to killing himself like Frobisher. But instead he pulled himself together and got out and on with his life (at age 66 no less!), whereas Frobisher couldn't see any way out of his failures and took his own life. That's progress.

i think Cavendish does have similarities with RF (book thief, escapist, lack of moral values etc) but if he reincarnates after Louisa he would actually b a step down for that soul (being a coward and a scumbag with a sense of entitlement while Luisa was at a higher stage of soul development), so it would have been a lot more logical to switch 3 and 4 and have Cavendish live after RF but b4 Louisa and b part of the soul path...

Progress isn't an essential part of the "Cloud Atlas". Frobisher, for example, is arguably a massive step down from Adam Ewing, who had seen the light in Part 2 and resolved to dedicate his life to abolitionism (even if he died before he could). Even before his realization, Ewing was a much better person than Frobisher, who was more or less a predator like Henry Goose.

[janne123g]

What makes you think that the risks "clearly outweigh" the benefits for the Juche? Remember that they were looking at the collapse of the social order of which they were sitting on top, and were desperate to keep their privileges and positions intact (and in denial over the fact that that was no longer possible). Moreover, they had precedent of using Fabricant rebellion as a justification for greater repression with the laws passed after the Yoona-939 incident, and they were in completely control of the situation from start to finish (Sonmi even implied that they had a bunch of ascendants, so if she died they could just use another one). As Sonmi says, they won a victory with the scheme, getting support for further repressive laws against the Fabricants. It was just that they didn't see the risk of what came after that end-game.

As for "how it eats itself", I pointed out up-thread several signs of potential disaster, stuff that could cause weakness in the regime to blow open into full-blown revolution. It's all self-inflicted, too.

With Hae-Joo, it's worth pointing out that we only know him from Sonmi's point of view, The only things we know about his background are what he tells Sonmi, and the only thing we can be sure of is that he was a Unanimity agent.

The same thing was going on with Cavendish. He was so miserable that after his postcard was found and shredded, he came close to killing himself like Frobisher. But instead he pulled himself together and got out and on with his life (at age 66 no less!), whereas Frobisher couldn't see any way out of his failures and took his own life. That's progress.

Progress isn't an essential part of the "Cloud Atlas". Frobisher, for example, is arguably a massive step down from Adam Ewing, who had seen the light in Part 2 and resolved to dedicate his life to abolitionism (even if he died before he could). Even before his realization, Ewing was a much better person than Frobisher, who was more or less a predator like Henry Goose.

progress is definitely one of the central themes in the book....he even says "“In an individual, selfishness uglifies the soul; for the human species, selfishness is extinction.” and then: "“I have always unswervingly held, that God, in our civilizing world, manifests Himself not in the miracles of biblical age, but in progress. It is progress that leads humanity up the ladder towards the God-head. No Jacob's ladder this, no, but rather Civilization's Ladder, if you will.”

it's funny you should compare RF w HG, i was also thinking, we don't know who has the birthmark in the first story, and that soul could have been Goose and not Ewing... and if story # 4 were to be set in mid 21st century then it would all make perfect sense as far as the reincarnations go

[Spring Bass]

progress is definitely one of the central themes in the book....he even says "“In an individual, selfishness uglifies the soul; for the human species, selfishness is extinction.” and then: "“I have always unswervingly held, that God, in our civilizing world, manifests Himself not in the miracles of biblical age, but in progress. It is progress that leads humanity up the ladder towards the God-head. No Jacob's ladder this, no, but rather Civilization's Ladder, if you will.”

I'm not so sure. There's a pretty strong element of ascension and descension throughout each of the sections, and the nature of the Cloud Atlas is described as being one where the shape changes, but the essence remains the same.

Moreover, that particular quote was being given by a racist, imperialistic preacher, who then went on to argue that it showed the superiority of the "anglo-saxon race". I don't think Mitchell was arguing for that position. If anything, he argued the opposite, when you consider Adam Ewing's thoughts about civilization and progress:

Scholars discern motions in history & formulate these motions into rules that govern the rises & falls of civilizations. My belief runs contrary, however. To wit: history admits no rules; only outcomes. What precipitates outcomes? Vicious acts & virtuous acts. What precipitates acts? Belief.

I think this is a more interesting point, though-

it's funny you should compare RF w HG, i was also thinking, we don't know who has the birthmark in the first story, and that soul could have been Goose and not Ewing... and if story # 4 were to be set in mid 21st century then it would all make perfect sense as far as the reincarnations go

I think you're right in that we don't know who has the birthmark in the Ewing sections, although I still think it's Ewing. Mitchell said that only one of the POV sections was not part of the reincarnated soul, which means it would have to include Zach'ry if Ewing wasn't part of it.

[janne123g]

I'm not so sure. There's a pretty strong element of ascension and descension throughout each of the sections, and the nature of the Cloud Atlas is described as being one where the shape changes, but the essence remains the same.

Moreover, that particular quote was being given by a racist, imperialistic preacher, who then went on to argue that it showed the superiority of the "anglo-saxon race". I don't think Mitchell was arguing for that position. If anything, he argued the opposite, when you consider Adam Ewing's thoughts about civilization and progress:

I think this is a more interesting point, though-

I think you're right in that we don't know who has the birthmark in the Ewing sections, although I still think it's Ewing. Mitchell said that only one of the POV sections was not part of the reincarnated soul, which means it would have to include Zach'ry if Ewing wasn't part of it.

i know the quote doesn't make much sense in that context, but without - it does...and by progress i don't mean necessarily 'industrial'...i meant the development of the man and society and if u forget about the particulars and what mitchell says and look at the big picture the book is essentially about a choice that every human being has at any given point in his life - to grow or to stagnate or even revert, to be cruel or kind, to advance or degrade...and our individual choices have impact thruout ages and continents...predacity is the theme that is there only to illustrate one of the choices that humans make....

i also thought Ewing was the 1st soul, because how the 3rd story echoes (Napier saves Luisa's life because her dad saved his, Autua saves Ewing because he saved him earlier) and also how Autua looks at him with recognition at their first encounter (author alluding they might have met in a previous life) but it's quite possible it might have been Goose nonetheless and if that is so then we c the evolution of the soul throughout time because what is the purpose of all life if not growth and development...

the beauty of literature is that you can scrap authors meaning and create ur own and that what i've done, i completely reconstructed the whole novel in my head in such a way that it all makes sense now...darn it he should have hired me as his editor...:-)))

[Little Wing]

Just finished reading Cloud Atlas and I must say it's been a great ride! Loved it. After watching the trailer for the movie I was very intrigued, and now that I've read it, don't know if I should watch the movie or not... I hope they get it right, the guy playing Frobisher seems so... drab.

I liked Frobisher and his sharp tongue but I'm gonna have to go with Cavendish as my favourite! So funny!

I don't know if you guys agree on this with me, but I think that what connects the characters with the birthmark is a free spirited, thruth-seeking, rebbelious nature. As well as a desire to do good/be good. The latter may not be obvious in Frobisher but there is that scene where he can't stand for the pheasant to suffer and puts him out of his misery (how's that for foreshadowing :crying: ) but he certainly is a free spirit, reminds me of Septimus Smith from Mrs Dalloway a bit. I wonder if the same actor will play Frobisher and Rafael, the boy that hangs himself on the Prophetess.

I found it so sweet that the last thing Sonmi wanted to do was watch the film about Cavendish's escape from the Undead, as he called them - you're never too old to rebel, change your circumstances, save yourself.

Oh, and not to forget the ASoIaF reference - the guy that escapes with Cavendish and co, that keeps saying I know, I know: Patchface! And his speech at that pub! Epic! :drunk:

So much to say, so little time... I'll just add that Sonmi's corpocracy world is not so far from reality, and the way animals and people get abused every day, it wouldn't surprise me that the next step is breeding slaves like cattle is bred now. :crying: :frown5:

Edit: spelling

[Jodan]

I finished the book a few weeks ago and really enjoyed, not loved it mind, but enjoyed it. It's usually not my type of book but it kept me interested at worst, riveted at best but never a page turner though.

Reading this thread makes me realise some of the things I missed, for example I never picked up on the Cavendish/Rey timeline contradiction. Having said that though, I had the feeling the book was three souls, rather than two that all interacted with each other. One remained the most important/lead (comet birthmark) but played the supporting role now and again (Mernonym?) when the other two were the 'leads'. Which characters they were every time I couldn't tell you, apart from the birthmark it's left very vague, which is where I think and hope the film might have the advantage of clearing up a few things.

[Little Wing]

Yeah, Jodan, I know what you mean - that's why I said in my post "characters with the birthmark" for instance, to be clear that I also included Meronym in my comparison :)

As far as past lives go, I remember there being a kind of belief that souls travel in packs and that within each life you'll come by the same people one way or another, at least the people that matter (teachers, lovers, friends, enemies). I think that was also showcased in Cloud Atlas, but that it's also what confuses the reader at some point. The guy that helps Sonmi may also be the ex cop who helps Luisa... what Frobisher was to Sixsmith is similar to what Ursula (?) was to Cavendish... Autua saves Ewing similarly to Meronym saving Zachary... and there are the predators in every life/story, with the exception that in Sonmi's story the predator is society itself, as described/prophesied by Ewing in his musings at the end: "one fine day, a purely predatory world shall consume itself". And the word is consume, so fitting for consumer corporate society... scary.

[janne123g]

i have to say i liked the movie better after seeing it for the second time...and the best part of it - HaeJoo Im is not a villain YAY...!!!!:-)

[Little Wing]

Well, Hae Joo Im is not so much a villain as part of the system, which isn't good either, but I see him as a victim... weak, let's say.

Ah, I dread and wish to go see it at the same time... I'll post my impressions as well, when I see it, I'm gonna have to I guess, I'm curious what they made of it. But, you know... of course the book is better, the books are always better :)

[Crazydog7]

I just got back from the movie. Considering that the last two matrix movies were shit they did a wonderful job and I don't say that about many movies.

[Spring Bass]

I meant to go see it today, but stuff came up. I'll probably catch it on a matinee on Monday or Tuesday afternoon.

[janne123g]

I meant to go see it today, but stuff came up. I'll probably catch it on a matinee on Monday or Tuesday afternoon.

tell me what u think...now between the book and the movie i'm totally confused about the whole reincarnation thing...

[Arbor Gold]

We should probably start a spoiler thread in Entertainment for the movie, but I will say here that I loved the movie.

Maybe it was clear in the book and I just missed it, or maybe they made it up for the movie, but I loved that Javier wrote the Luisa Rey mystery. I couldn't figure out the purpose of the Javier character in the book other than to show that Luisa is cool.

[Crazydog7]

I hadn't gotten a chance to read the book yet but it really reminded me of The Years of Rice and Salt by

Kim Stanley Robinson