What exactly is the appeal of Jon Snow?

[Darth Rivers]

He's the designated hero protagonist. You are supposed to like him because he's the main good guy, and he does good stuff. Or something.

[Booknerd2]

And one of the best things he did, with no strings attached and just because he is good-hearted, was to befriend and take Sam under his wing.

Sam is extremely smart and dependable and loyal and I think he will help Jon out in the future somehow.

That kindness to Sam in the beginning is going to pay it forward down the road somehow. Sam has blossomed due to their friendship and I think he finds something out at the Citadel. I don't think Sam spends the next two books just studying. It would be a big help too. Not sure what but Sam the Slayer is finding out that he is more man than he thinks. Finding the cache and slaying an other, beating up the deserter....I think Sam is going to develop more.

And if it is true that Alleras=Sarella, who knows? But she is where Sam is.

[total1402]

No real setbacks?

Well, apart from never knowing who his mother was, the loss of his father, brothers, sisters and uncle, being forced into a double betrayal, the death of his first real love as a result of the second of those betrayals, having to deliberately cut himself off from his friends, and a few more I could throw in but won't, maybe.

Jon is to some extent less colourful and vividly drawn than, say, Jaime or Tyrion. But that doesn't make him less interesting. He shows real growth as a character, has real strength of character, he struggles and makes mistakes but retains a desire to do the right thing, even while having to find out what that is more ore less by himself. I enjoy his chapters immensely.

I felt he was more curious than anything with the mother. He lost them very distantly and the pain was not as severe as say the other Starks who directly witnessed eachothers deaths (cept Bran). Hes really pacific about everything to do with that loss and even when Ygritte died. Theres a sort of getting on with everything mentality that I find boderline callous in the man. Fine for an external show but when we get to see a characters perspective through their POV you don't expect them to be that cold. Hence I feel little compassion or sympathy for the character.

[Jamie Lannister]

He has his moments.

"It's death and destruction I want to bring down upon House Lannister, not scorn."

[Darth Rivers]

Is there any protagonist cliche that Jon DOESN'T match?

[plurabel]

Part of the appeal of Jon Snow to me is that, like Davos, he offers us a character that we can truly get behind and feel good about liking.

I know that his "boringness" is commonly cited as a negative. I respect that opinion, though I actually find his evolution from aGoT to DwD quite fascinating. He began this journey as a spoiled and somewhat narrowminded boy with a slight sense of entitlement; this was stripped from him, and he undergoes what I find to be an incredibly compelling transformation toward reframing the prejudices of his society and legitimately trying to do the right thing (not based on affiliation, race, House loyalty, but as men). To this end, he's got a perspective I find myself believing in-- it's not about the title but the man (some wit and wisdom courtesy of the Mance).

I get the sense that part of his "blandness" results from the fact that none of his decisions are truly that challenging to us, as modern readers. His decisions don't make us squirm, because they are largely in line with what we believe is right (in a moral sense), as well as the fact that we know him to be right in story about the threat from the North, because we're privy to things other characters are not.

I don't know that we can say "Jon had it better than everyone," or talk about plot gifts, because all of our POVs, save a small handful, come from the same social class and had similar opportunities; all receive ample plot gifts.

I find Jon's story appealing because I see it as one in which his success comes largely through merit and good sense (though his being a "son" of Ned Stark does help bring dissenters to his side on more than a few occasions, so I don't want to pretend that it is all merit). But I love the fact that he's reasonable, that he sees all men as men, that he appeals to the sanctity of the individual in assessing merit and worth (his favorite wildlings), and that he's breaking conventions that have proven useless and defunct.

I like the fact that he's not taking the easy route, being seduced by Mel's promises of easy victory through magic (he knows that she is not a woman to whom be wants to be in debt). I like the fact that he's not swayed by aristocratic trappings (he sees Axell for what he is, and doesn't rise to the petty torments of the other Southron fools). He accepts Wun Wun as deserving of guest rite, and is gracious about allowing any wildlings to take the black. He recognizes that Satin - "the painted catamite"- has value, and makes him his steward despite the protests of the homophobes in the Watch. I like the fact that he is rightly critical of Stannis' policy to break the wildlings, and I like the fact that he believes in religious tolerance. I love the fact that he's willing to count advice no matter who it comes from so long as he deems it worthy (Mance's philosophies on power and leadership frequent his thoughts). I love the fact that he can see past artificial trappings and traditions to get to the meat of the matter.

One last thing- the fact that he was "assassinated" by 4 of his men is way overplayed as some kind of "proof" of his ineptitude. All it takes is for 1 rogue jerk to rise up and kill someone (look at MLK, Ghandi, Lincoln). I do not take assassinations or assassination attempts to somehow justify critique of a character (and to play this card, we should include Dany's poisoned locusts as well). I just don't think that these 4 jerks should be taken as gospel that Jon is a terrible leader or anything like that.

this kind of response is what makes me frequent these boards. I hope I'll get to be like that when I grow up. :)

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Well

He is the underdog of his family.

He is honorable.

He does what is the right thing no matter what others demands.

He is selfless.

He never has anything really his but his siblings and father he didn't even had a mother.

He is a good leader.

He helps the others.

He is a good person. Not white but good

He is heroic.

He has never wronged someone.

He does his own dirty work.

He inspires respect to others.

He makes Stannis like him.

He makes the wildlings knelt to him but not because he is cruel or because they are afraid of him.

He raises at power possitions because he deserves it not because of a "birthright".

He has humor.

He is interested.

He can feel and he isn't cold.

He is stubborn but not close-minded.

He has Ghost.

He is the song of Ice and Fire.

He is Azor Ahai Reborn.

He is the Prince who was Promised.

And this list can grow longer and longer and longer.

[cantharella]

I thought I was the only one not crazy about Jon Snow. When I started reading aSoIaF, he was my favourite - young, sensitive, strong, smart, honourable. Then somehow I started to like others more than him. He's just too much like Ned. In fact, now I can't remember what exactly Ned Stark's appeal was either.

Yes, he's a good boy and all, and good luck to him, but I just don't care.

[total1402]

One last thing- the fact that he was "assassinated" by 4 of his men is way overplayed as some kind of "proof" of his ineptitude. All it takes is for 1 rogue jerk to rise up and kill someone (look at MLK, Ghandi, Lincoln). I do not take assassinations or assassination attempts to somehow justify critique of a character (and to play this card, we should include Dany's poisoned locusts as well). I just don't think that these 4 jerks should be taken as gospel that Jon is a terrible leader or anything like that.

Well thats actually what I said. Jon being assasinated isn't proof that he was doing a bad job at the wall. He was actually doing an incredibly good job of running the wall and helping Stannis.

With Dany its different. Bad cricumstances and almost impossible situation but still a bad job of solving her issue compared to Jon. The attempt on her life is largely forgotten its her efforts to placate the Mereenese and deal with the slavers which she fails to do. Had Dany been aware and survived the poisoning things wouldn't have turned out better for her. Had Jon survived his assasination or gotton away with it then his star would have carried on rising. Jon reconciles Tormund and gets an army of giants willing to follow him. He gets loan to provide winter supplies for the watch. He aids Stannis campaign in the North successfuly. He helps arrange an alliance between the Karstark woman and the wildlings ending the robber plot and informing Stannis of the betrayel. Things were on the up for Jon Snow.

[David Selig]

Beats me. He's practically the same as every cliched fantasy hero out there and his storyline is mind-numbingly boring.

He was willing to leave and face the consequences to help Robb and his family, which really, that was brave

It was more stupid than brave. Jon would've forced Robb to execute him as a deserter or lose a whole lot more in terms of prestige and honor than the benefit of Jon's presence could've given him. And that's only he somehow made it all the way to him through the whole North as a deserter from the NW without being caught, which was unlikely. Far more likely he'd have thrown his life away for nothing.

One last thing- the fact that he was "assassinated" by 4 of his men is way overplayed as some kind of "proof" of his ineptitude. All it takes is for 1 rogue jerk to rise up and kill someone (look at MLK, Ghandi, Lincoln). I do not take assassinations or assassination attempts to somehow justify critique of a character (and to play this card, we should include Dany's poisoned locusts as well). I just don't think that these 4 jerks should be taken as gospel that Jon is a terrible leader or anything like that.

It's one thing to be assassinated by a random loon unconnected to the target (like in the examples you give), it's another if it's a result of a plot organised by a top level subordinate and other men who belong to the organisation the target of the assassination is leading. I am not saying the latter definitely proves incompetence, far from it, but if a leader manages to anger and disappoint some of his followers to the extend that they do something drastic like this, it's a serious hint he's doing a lot of things wrong.

[The Snowman]

The likely hood of Jon surviving is as much as Dany becoming all powerful with a dragon and a khalasar and nice big fleet and few thousand unsullied..oh and barristan and jorah and tyrion and maybe Victarion by her said.

So pretty likely.

[Lord Tyrion]

I like Jon because I feel for the guy, He "was born a bastard" and he was loved by his siblings. He is also very honorable and

he is put into a tough situation at this point as the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.

[total1402]

The likely hood of Jon surviving is as much as Dany becoming all powerful with a dragon and a khalasar and nice big fleet and few thousand unsullied..oh and barristan and jorah and tyrion and maybe Victarion by her said.

So pretty likely.

Jons gonna survive and Dany ain't going to end with any of those things.

[Booknerd2]

True, it was stupid, but still brave.

Thinking Robb needed him more than he cared about your own life in a selfless act. And he is saved by his friends in the NW, who took risks too, because Jon was nice to Sam and it saved his life and prevented him from doing in his own. And if Jon was nasty to Sam or if he hadn't changed and kept being an angry jerk to the other guys like he was in the beginning, they all would have let him go and not bothered.

[Lord Tyrion]

Jons gonna survive and Dany ain't going to end with any of those things.

You think so? I'm hoping that's what happens because I've fallen in love with Dany, Tyrion, and Jon all at once.

Victarion, I have to see a little more of him to actually care about him.

[total1402]

Well

He is the underdog of his family.

He is honorable.

He does what is the right thing no matter what others demands.

He is selfless.

He never has anything really his but his siblings and father he didn't even had a mother.

He is a good leader.

He helps the others.

He is a good person. Not white but good

He is heroic.

He has never wronged someone.

He does his own dirty work.

He inspires respect to others.

He makes Stannis like him.

He makes the wildlings knelt to him but not because he is cruel or because they are afraid of him.

He raises at power possitions because he deserves it not because of a "birthright".

He has humor.

He is interested.

He can feel and he isn't cold.

He is stubborn but not close-minded.

He has Ghost.

He is the song of Ice and Fire.

He is Azor Ahai Reborn.

He is the Prince who was Promised.

And this list can grow longer and longer and longer.

When Martin has trampled and torn apart other fantasy archtypes; almost to the point of being satirical. It makes his upholding of Jon difficult to take seriously. He reads like a character out of Feists work or one of the Books of Shannara or something like that. Hell maybe even a bit like Gaunt out of the 40k Ghost series. Such characters have a place in those books but it just feels obnoxious and as if hes telling me to be impressed by this man in Ice n Fire.

[butterbumps!]

It's one thing to be assassinated by a random loon unconnected to the target (like in the examples you give), it's another if it's a result of a plot organised by a top level subordinate and other men who belong to the organisation the target of the assassination is leading. I am not saying the latter definitely proves incompetence, far from it, but if a leader manages to anger and disappoint some of his followers to the extend that they do something drastic like this, it's a serious hint he's doing a lot of things wrong.

I disagree. We know that Bowen hardly speaks for the "men of the Watch." What I took from the DwD chapters is that Bowen + Co increasingly form a fringe coterie of members who do not agree with Jon here.

But fine, let's say that they represent more men than I'm suggesting; let's think about why they don't agree with Jon, shall we?

Wildlings are bad

Wildlings are not men

We should seal the gate

Wun Wun is a dangerous monster

Satin is "too homosexual" to be Jon's steward

We hate wildlings

The issues that they harp on all come down to their irrational hatred and prejudice for certain people. That Bowen appeals to the fact that there is little food is completely disingenuous; it's all about the fact that he wants no wildlings.

I don't believe that what you said undermines Jon's abilities as a leader in any way. Again, there were many fringe dissenters who disagreed with the great men I already mentioned. In no way do I believe that the fact that they angered people to drastic action mitigates how great of leaders these people were. IMO, it says far more about the dissenters' being wrong and limited than it does about the leader being assassinated.

[Budj]

Because he is a really cool guy that doesn't afraid of anything? Except the crypts in WF apparently...

[total1402]

You think so? I'm hoping that's what happens because I've fallen in love with Dany, Tyrion, and Jon all at once.

Victarion, I have to see a little more of him to actually care about him.

I hope it happens. But it won't. Every time Dany has ever seemed likely to get anything that might be a big help, Dragons, Khal Drogo, Unsullied, martell alliance. She has either lost it, had it taken away from her, not helped her, been a liability and the end result being worse than what came before. If it seems shes about to control the dragons, get massive fleet, Tyrion, Jorah and the Dothraki; you can be certain it won't happen or that they'll be neutralised somehow.

[Lord Tyrion]

Seems like she has to have luck somewhere along the way. I still don't think the 3 betrayals have been fulfilled yet either. I forgot which ones have been fulfilled actually, but I remember 1 of them which I didn't believe.