Maester Cressan Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 Dawn is at Starfall. There has been no Sword of the Morning sine Arthur Dayne for some reasaon, most likely because there is no one worth holding the title yet. Is Dawn like Excaliber or something? - Only the chosen one can pull it from the Stone? Or maybe Ashara Dayne is playing Lady of the Lake? I don't really think this... but with a name like Arthur and a sword like Dawn, it's pretty hard not to think of Excaliber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maester Cressan Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 Ah - if there's no evidence that Asharra is still alive, there's also no evidence that she and Ned were in love - sure we have the whispering of servants, but if we believe them, then Sansa can turn into a bat-winged wolf and fly. We have no evidence that Ned even met Asharra before Starfall. That's as much speculation as her still being alive. We simply don't know. As for Neds honor - I always came from the school that if you slew someone in combat, you got to keep their stuff. And did you see where Starfall is on the map? You can't get further south in Westeros. Real inconvienant. Is it so hard to believe that there may have been other motives for going there? Actually you are wrong. We have it confirmed that Ned danced with Ashara Dayne at the big tournament (where Jamie become a Kingsguard)- and that he had an attraction for her. Confimed by Meria and Jojen- and Ned's response to Catelyn's questions is confirmation too I think. Also, maybe you find it honorable to loot the dead bodies of your enemies- but traditionally that is reserved for bandits- and maybe no name mercinaries. It is not something you do to a living Hero like "The Sword of the Morning". Ned's honor did require that he return Dawn- it would have been a horrible scandal if he hadn't- would have created a blodd feud at the very least. The real question is: Why did Ned feel the need to return Dawn in person? I too think there is something fishy about Ashara's death- although I don't think it is a huge conspiracy thing. Just that the events are slightly different than our perspective leads us to believe. Sort of like the people who saw Jamie becoming the youngest Kingsguard as an honor, when in fact it was done to pite Tywin. I think there is something similar going on with the Ashara Dayne subplot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Usurper's Dogs Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 Is Dawn like Excaliber or something? - Only the chosen one can pull it from the Stone? Or maybe Ashara Dayne is playing Lady of the Lake? I don't really think this... but with a name like Arthur and a sword like Dawn, it's pretty hard not to think of Excaliber I think Martin probably was trying to evoke the same sort of mysticism that surrounds Excalibur, but the real excalibur in this story is probably more likely Lightbringer of old (not Stannis' fake). But Dawn certainly was a rare sword, forged from the iron of a meteorite, which was much purer than the iron most men were able to scrape out of the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maester Cressan Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 In a just and ideal world, as soon as GRRM finishes TSoIaF, he'll immeadiately start a prequel series running from the annointing of King Aerys to the battle of the Trident. Reading ASoIaF, I get the feeling that we're getting half a story, and the lesser half at that. The more I read and discuss, the more I find that I'm much more interested in what happened before this story started. I don't think Benjen was a criminal or forcably exiled to the wall, there's no evidence for that. I chalk it up to the family honor until there's evidence to the contrary. Pax. What are you talking about? We need a connecting storyline from the Hedge Knight to GOT- And maybe a novel about the Red and Black Dragons (Blackfires). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Usurper's Dogs Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 The real question is: Why did Ned feel the need to return Dawn in person? I too think there is something fishy about Ashara's death- although I don't think it is a huge conspiracy thing. Just that the events are slightly different than our perspective leads us to believe. Sort of like the people who saw Jamie becoming the youngest Kingsguard as an honor, when in fact it was done to pite Tywin. I think there is something similar going on with the Ashara Dayne subplot. Indeed, the much more likely thing for Ned or any other lord to have done would be to return Dawn along with Ser Arthur's bones by way of the Silent Sisters. So he definitely had a reason to visit Starfall besides returning the blade. And no one kills themself over their uncle. But finding the one you love married to another and the not-so-proud "father" of a baby bastard boy.. the blue waters are calling, my lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maester Cressan Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 I think Martin probably was trying to evoke the same sort of mysticism that surrounds Excalibur, but the real excalibur in this story is probably more likely Lightbringer of old (not Stannis' fake). But Dawn certainly was a rare sword, forged from the iron of a meteorite, which was much purer than the iron most men were able to scrape out of the ground. Ahh... but is Dawn aka Lightbringer? After all the names have the same meaning (along with "The Sword of the Morning"), and only Lightbringer and Dawn are identified as forged from a meteorite/fallen star. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Usurper's Dogs Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 Ahh... but is Dawn aka Lightbringer? After all the names have the same meaning (along with "The Sword of the Morning"), and only Lightbringer and Dawn are identified as forged from a meteorite/fallen star. Now that would be an interesting twist indeed.. And the Daynes were very loyal to the Targaryens by all appearances.. and isn't Ashara described as purple-eyed? But wouldn't maester aemon have known this when he "saw" stannis' blade? He didn't seem to hint at it in AFFC either, unless i missed something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maester Cressan Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 I have another question: What are Littlefinger's motives? I know the whole "being unpredictable for unpredictability's sake" thing but seriously, what is in it for him to marry Sansa to Harry the Heir? Just to have his "own men" in positions of power? Think about it- Sansa has become the most valuable heiress in Westros. As far as anyone knows, she is the heiress to Winterfell. If Edmure and his unborn child dies, she could be seen as a potential heiress to Riverrun. By her marriage to Tyrion, she has an arguable claim to Casterly Rock, if she were to marry Harry the Heir (or Robert Arryn) she could have claim to The Vale (made stronger by her relation to Lysa)- add in Littlefinger's nominal position as Lord of the Riverland/Trident and Littlefinger could potentialy use Sansa to control half of Westros. Add in Sansa's beauty, charm, and above all gentleness and I bet she could be seen as a second tier candidate to make a bid for the Throne- in that both smallfolk and Lords are likely to be tired of power hungry Queens by that point. benjen went to the wall so grrm could easily place jon on the wall as well (he wants to join the wall because of benjen). other then that i cant think of one reason why benjen , the son of a prominent lord would join the wall... even for honor... the wall is horrible lifestyle no matter how you look at it. hot pie's real name is hot pie. Execpt that Benjen is a Stark, and the Starks have always had a special relationship with the Night's Watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maester Cressan Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 Now that would be an interesting twist indeed.. And the Daynes were very loyal to the Targaryens by all appearances.. and isn't Ashara described as purple-eyed? But wouldn't maester aemon have known this when he "saw" stannis' blade? He didn't seem to hint at it in AFFC either, unless i missed something. Unless the Daynes don't know that Dawn is Lightbringer. Lightbringer, the Sword of Heros, and AA seems to be an Eastern prophecy, while the Prince that was Promised is western. Although the maesters seem to think they are the same prophecies. You'd think the Maesters might be curious about Dawn in connection with Lightbringer- but the Dayne's seem to have pecuilar traditions about Dawn- I doubt they would hand it over for the maesters to study. Also, most of the maesters are interested in killing prophecy- so maybe they prefer for Dawn to remain Dawn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lann_Boys'Girl Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Do you think we'll ever find out? I forget who Mullen is but didn't Cat think at one time about the bones coming home but they weren't Eddard, they were just his bones? I always assumed that meant the bones had been returned to winterfell. I probably was reading too quickly though, as usual. I reread this scene yesterday. The silent sisters bring Ned's bones to Riverrun in COK and Catelyn thinks about how this is not NED, the man she slept in the same bed with, etc, these are just bones. She then tells the sisters that she's sorry, but they have to take his bones to Winterfell. She sends Hallis Mollen with them, the captain of the Stark's guards. AFAIK we haven't heard anything of them since...and since Winterfell was under Theon's rule or alternately "destroyed" by the time they got there...IF they got there...well see that's why it's a mystery hahaa. I agree. There is no indication Waymar Royce (isn't that the name of the first one we meet in the prologue in AGOT?) was a brigand. There must be some honor in taking the Black still. Somewhere. Maybe he was an asshole. Maybe he thought to himself, my dad already has two sons waiting in line for his seat, and I'm not good enough with a sword to be a KG knight or win tourneys. No one will ever LISTEN to me! I want POWERRRR! Oh I know, I'll go the Wall! That way I'll be made Lord Commander immediately over all those bastards and rapists and really have power! lol. No. Both Duncans probably died there, Duncan the Tall was definitely already LC. Very shortly afterward Hightower is promoted to LC and Barristan replaces him as associate Justice...er, I mean brother. Ah, I understand. I was working off something that was posted in a thread, but I guess their timeline was inaccurate. Even if Tysah had a child and it was Tyrion, the child could still possibly be considered a bastard, I think Lord Tywin had the marriage annuled, thus declared invalid. But if Tyrion and Tysha conceived the child BEFORE the marriage was anulled, when it was still legitimate...oh wait no, anullment = never happened. Hmm...something to think about though What probably should happen is, GRRM writes Dunk and Egg stories up to Summerhall. There's no need for a Aerys-crowning-onward thing...I mean, Summerhall takes us up to where Rhaegar is born and after that we pretty much know what happened. Don't get me wrong, it'd be FASCINATING to read about the times when the people around were everyone's parents, and would prob. explain a lot about what's going on now...back when the KG didn't suck LOL...but I think taking us up to Summerhall is good. We can fill in a lot of holes after that. I bet Dunk marries Tanselle Too-Tall! Never mind that she's just a Dornish puppeteer! (Unlesssss...hah no, kidding.) I'm a big supporter of what I believe Oathkeeper has stated to be the circumstances surrounding Ashara Dayne's death. She and Ned loved each other. The pain starts when, first of all, they're on opposite sides of Robert's Rebellion. Ned has to marry Cat, which sucks because I bet, originally, with Brandon supposed to marry Cat, Ned would prob. be free to marry Ashara as a second son and hey, her family is 10,000 years old. Not that a Stark-Dorne alliance is REALLY needed, but whatever. So now Ned has to marry someone else. The war progresses. Ned needs to go find Lyanna. And yet, I never thought to question the following about the Tower of Joy - how did Ned KNOW to find Lyanna there? Out of all the random places in Westeros, he just happened to know it was the Tower of Joy? Did Rhaegar have a history of spiriting away highborn girls to this place? No. So Ned obviously had to find out from someone where Lyanna was being kept. Given that A. Ashara used to be one of Elia's companions and may have known, or B. Ashara's brother Arthur would be guarding Lyanna wherever she is and Ashara may know where her brother was, Ned may have gone to her for help. Ashara told him she was in the Tower of Joy. Ned arrives with his various companions to find the three KG knights and eventually kills them. His sister dies; he takes Jon and Dawn and makes his way back to Starfall to return the sword. (I don't think this is a big deal, I think it's very much in Ned's character. He must feel awful about killing a man as great as Arthur Dayne, who was just doing his job to protect his sister. Or whatever.) Ashara realizes that since she was the one who told Ned to go to the Tower of Joy, and he ended up killing her brother, she is partly responsible for her brother's death. She cannot live with the fact that the man she loved killed her brother; she kills herself. I think that one's the most realistic and understandable one I've seen yet, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolf Maid Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 Ashara realizes that since she was the one who told Ned to go to the Tower of Joy, and he ended up killing her brother, she is partly responsible for her brother's death. She cannot live with the fact that the man she loved killed her brother; she kills herself. Good theory. That is a very rational explanation why Ashara killed hereself. XD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lily Valley Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 Has anyone considered that Pycelle might be lying about Margaery's tansy tea for his own reasons? Could Pycelle be helping Varys? Oops! Moon tea! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lann Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 lily valley, i've been wondering about that myself as well (except it was moon tea, not tansy). why is margaery taking moon tea? is she really even taking it or did pycelle make that up? if he did, why? what i'm thinking is maybe he made it up (in concert with the tyrells, to whose side he has switched) so that cersei would tip her hand when she has her arrested? i don't really buy that though because margaery is so pissed when she's talking with cersei in her cell, it seems like that wasn't part of margaery's plan. what are the tyrells up to???!!! i want a highgarden POV in the worst way! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Jon Snow Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 Moved post to a new thread: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?showtopic=9765 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Red Wolf Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 12). What is Hot Pie's real name? Hot Pie Targaryen 18). Why have the Faceless Men infiltrated the Maester's Citadel? Scavenger hunt edited because most were not funny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lily Valley Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 Lann, All the reports from Margaery's would-be Kettleblack seducer say she is NEVER alone. Margaery is young, but by all descriptions very cunning and I don't think she would have risked an affair in the middle of enemy territory. I like a Varys-Pycelle conspiracy on this one. Cersei was genuinely shocked by the revelation, and the Tyrell's would never have allowed Margaery to be slandered or put at risk. The accusation serves to disrupt all of the power at King's Landing. It widens the breach between Tyrell and Lannister and strips Tommen of Margaery's influence. Littlefinger seemed dismayed that King's landing had fallen apart so quickly so I ruled him out. The lie could serve the maesters, the Targaren camp, or anyone other than Littlefinger who would profit from chaos in King's Landing. Any other suggestions? Crackpot over and out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oba Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 Execpt that Benjen is a Stark, and the Starks have always had a special relationship with the Night's Watch. When Meera's telling the Knight of the Laughing Tree story, one of the things she mentions (mixed in with rhaegar's harp playing, Lyanna's sniffles, etc.) is that a brother of the Night's Watch spoke urging men to take the black. We know that Benjen was on hand to hear this. I always thought Martin put that in to say that young Benjen was influenced by this and that it was a possible factor in his joining the NW after the war. Just my $.02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Posted June 30, 2006 Share Posted June 30, 2006 *de-lurks* First post. Checked the thread carefully regarding Benjen and joining the NW. One thing no one mentioned: There is a part in the KotLT/Harrenhal tourney story where a man form the NW makes an impassioned plea for men to join and it is mentioned that one of the wolves seemed moved. don't have the book to quote, sorry. I always took that scene to imply that Benjen was moved to join the NW by said speech. Just a little detail that I caught. *drops 2 cents and re-lurks* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Bengali Menace Posted June 30, 2006 Share Posted June 30, 2006 12). What is Hot Pie's real name? Hot Pie Targaryen 18). Why have the Faceless Men infiltrated the Maester's Citadel? Scavenger hunt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucilla Aurelius Posted June 30, 2006 Share Posted June 30, 2006 The war progresses. Ned needs to go find Lyanna. And yet, I never thought to question the following about the Tower of Joy - how did Ned KNOW to find Lyanna there? Out of all the random places in Westeros, he just happened to know it was the Tower of Joy? Did Rhaegar have a history of spiriting away highborn girls to this place? No. So Ned obviously had to find out from someone where Lyanna was being kept. Given that A. Ashara used to be one of Elia's companions and may have known, or B. Ashara's brother Arthur would be guarding Lyanna wherever she is and Ashara may know where her brother was, Ned may have gone to her for help. Ashara told him she was in the Tower of Joy. Ned arrives with his various companions to find the three KG knights and eventually kills them. His sister dies; he takes Jon and Dawn and makes his way back to Starfall to return the sword. (I don't think this is a big deal, I think it's very much in Ned's character. He must feel awful about killing a man as great as Arthur Dayne, who was just doing his job to protect his sister. Or whatever.) I really, really, *gasp* really believe that Jon is a Targaryen and therefore the reason Ned was so intent on getting him was because he knew it was his nephew and he didn't want to see his nephew killed by someone like Cleagane the way the other Targaryen kids were. well... that's what I think. I hope it makes sense to someone. (Sorry but Jon is my favorite character besides Dany and Tyrion, and well, I'm kinda rooting for the return of the Targaryens because dragons are just so awesome. ) And hey, Jon is part wolf, so there you go, two great houses with real, living sigils mixed. Fantabulous. Then again, I could be full of crap because Jon does have Robert's coloring... Damn it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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