The Usurper's Dogs Posted June 30, 2006 Share Posted June 30, 2006 I really, really, *gasp* really believe that Jon is a Targaryen and therefore the reason Ned was so intent on getting him was because he knew it was his nephew and he didn't want to see his nephew killed by someone like Cleagane the way the other Targaryen kids were. well... that's what I think. I hope it makes sense to someone. (Sorry but Jon is my favorite character besides Dany and Tyrion, and well, I'm kinda rooting for the return of the Targaryens because dragons are just so awesome. ) And hey, Jon is part wolf, so there you go, two great houses with real, living sigils mixed. Fantabulous. Then again, I could be full of crap because Jon does have Robert's coloring... Damn it. Jon has Robert's coloring? He has Ned's look, which was very different.. But he also looks like Arya, who looks like Lyana, according to Ned. Jon has the ice from the Starks and the Fire from the Targaryens and this is the Song of Ice and Fire, after all.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakman Posted June 30, 2006 Share Posted June 30, 2006 The real question is: Why did Ned feel the need to return Dawn in person? I too think there is something fishy about Ashara's death- although I don't think it is a huge conspiracy thing. Just that the events are slightly different than our perspective leads us to believe. Sort of like the people who saw Jamie becoming the youngest Kingsguard as an honor, when in fact it was done to pite Tywin. I think there is something similar going on with the Ashara Dayne subplot. Why did he return Dawn in person? It's quite simple: Starfell was the nearest place he could go and feel secure. He's been injured from the fighting, he has two mystical swords--one that needs to be returned, AND he's got a baby that needs a wetnurse (or if you don't believe that, he has his sister's body, which needs to be prepared for the long journey North) So he goes to a place that he feels he would be able to keep a secret--Starfell, where he knows the Lady of Starfell, Ashara Dayne. Ashara jumped out of a window because Ned would not break his vow to Catelyn--she probably did this when he announced he was returning to Riverrun. Also, if people think that Tyrek Lannister is some huge plotpoint that Martin's going to bring out, think again.... he was torn apart by the mob, and I doubt that he'll ever be mentioned again except when someone remembers how he was lost in the bloodthirsty mob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Targaryen Posted July 3, 2006 Share Posted July 3, 2006 Also, if people think that Tyrek Lannister is some huge plotpoint that Martin's going to bring out, think again.... he was torn apart by the mob, and I doubt that he'll ever be mentioned again except when someone remembers how he was lost in the bloodthirsty mob. Martin has been very coy about what happened to Tyrek. It's possible he may come into the story later somehow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinDonner Posted July 4, 2006 Share Posted July 4, 2006 My take on the Ashara thing (why Ned went to see her, anyway) is that he has the baby of Lyanna & Rhaegar, but it's too early to tell whether it'll end up looking like a Targaryen or not, so he needs to have a convincing "mother" that would explain any blondeness or purple-eyeness that the kid may later exhibit... the Daynes (Ashara & Edric certainly) have the Targaryen appearance and presumably there are various bastard maids around the castle too that look similar, so it combines the honour of returning the sword with a good cover story on why his own bastard child may display some Targ features. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Usurper's Dogs Posted July 4, 2006 Share Posted July 4, 2006 My take on the Ashara thing (why Ned went to see her, anyway) is that he has the baby of Lyanna & Rhaegar, but it's too early to tell whether it'll end up looking like a Targaryen or not, so he needs to have a convincing "mother" that would explain any blondeness or purple-eyeness that the kid may later exhibit... the Daynes (Ashara & Edric certainly) have the Targaryen appearance and presumably there are various bastard maids around the castle too that look similar, so it combines the honour of returning the sword with a good cover story on why his own bastard child may display some Targ features. That smacks of sly cunning, which Ned always disdained. He owed it Ashara to return Dawn to the family. He had a debt of honor to the man he respected most and to the woman he loved. Ned wasn't one to let others do the hard work. He would look into a man's eyes before he killed him because it was a hard thing to do and if something hard had to be done and he couldn't, maybe it shouldn't be done. I daresay Ned would never have shared the secret of Jon's parentage with anyone, including Ashara. He could not have given her the babe, purple eyes or no. To do otherwise would risk failing the oath he swore to Lyanna on her deathbed. It would also dishonor the woman he loved. Also, Jon was Lyanna's legacy and Ned would have felt a duty to the child and a need to see that he was taken to the North, where the Starks belong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Targaryen Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 Going to Starfall does give him the cover story of picking up the babe he sired earlier in the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakman Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 Martin has been very coy about what happened to Tyrek. It's possible he may come into the story later somehow. Tyrek = waste of pages. We'll not hear of him again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Original Ned's Bones Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 Tyrek = waste of pages. We'll not hear of him again. Although we keep hearing about him in ASOS and AFFC, 2 books after his disapearance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Usurper's Dogs Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 Going to Starfall does give him the cover story of picking up the babe he sired earlier in the war. And he does need to quickly acquire a wetnurse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hergrace Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 yeah, mayb g.martin plans to have tyrek suddenly show up suprisingly back from "being' lost . =P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Usurper's Dogs Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 yeah, mayb g.martin plans to have tyrek suddenly show up suprisingly back from "being' lost . =P Yeah, but you know people would still be worried about family members for a long time, especially if there were no body and any measure of hope. There might be no significance to the mentioning of Tyrek except for realism and as a reminder of past events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakman Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 Although we keep hearing about him in ASOS and AFFC, 2 books after his disapearance? yup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Other-in-law Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 Yakman, I've noticed that (as D.H.Lawrence said of M.R.James) when you say you believe a thing, you merely mean that you will be greatly annoyed if it turns out not to be the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FacelessMan Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 One unanswered question as of yet unmentioned: Maggy the Frog predicts: "...And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you." As we learn later, valonqar means "little brother", and Cersei takes it to mean Tyrion. However, it could also be Tommen, or for that matter Stannis. I think GRRM's twists and turns could prove this to be some one other than Tyrion, just as "...another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear." Could be Myrcella, Margaery, or Daenerys. My predictions, her own insanity caused by her little brother Tyrion will be the valonqar, and Daenerys will cast down all that she holds dear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Usurper's Dogs Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 One unanswered question as of yet unmentioned: Maggy the Frog predicts: "...And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you." As we learn later, valonqar means "little brother", and Cersei takes it to mean Tyrion. However, it could also be Tommen, or for that matter Stannis. I think GRRM's twists and turns could prove this to be some one other than Tyrion, just as "...another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear." Could be Myrcella, Margaery, or Daenerys. My predictions, her own insanity caused by her little brother Tyrion will be the valonqar, and Daenerys will cast down all that she holds dear. Ser Loras is also a little brother. Or one of the younger Kettlebacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odie Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 Jamie is Cersei's little brother too. She was born first, which she laments at some other point when bitching about being female. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Other-in-law Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 I believe most of those candidates for the valonqar have been posited at some point or other (and more besides), but the smart money is on Jaime, her junior by a few seconds. They entered the world together, and they'll leave it the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakman Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 I believe most of those candidates for the valonqar have been posited at some point or other (and more besides), but the smart money is on Jaime, her junior by a few seconds. They entered the world together, and they'll leave it the same way. You know, I get the feeling that Jaime's gonna be one of the few left standing at the end. Him, Tyrion, Jon... Aeron... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DecayingExponentials Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 I'm a big supporter of what I believe Oathkeeper has stated to be the circumstances surrounding Ashara Dayne's death. She and Ned loved each other. The pain starts when, first of all, they're on opposite sides of Robert's Rebellion. Ned has to marry Cat, which sucks because I bet, originally, with Brandon supposed to marry Cat, Ned would prob. be free to marry Ashara as a second son and hey, her family is 10,000 years old. Not that a Stark-Dorne alliance is REALLY needed, but whatever. So now Ned has to marry someone else. The war progresses. Ned needs to go find Lyanna. And yet, I never thought to question the following about the Tower of Joy - how did Ned KNOW to find Lyanna there? Out of all the random places in Westeros, he just happened to know it was the Tower of Joy? Did Rhaegar have a history of spiriting away highborn girls to this place? No. So Ned obviously had to find out from someone where Lyanna was being kept. Given that A. Ashara used to be one of Elia's companions and may have known, or B. Ashara's brother Arthur would be guarding Lyanna wherever she is and Ashara may know where her brother was, Ned may have gone to her for help. Ashara told him she was in the Tower of Joy. Ned arrives with his various companions to find the three KG knights and eventually kills them. His sister dies; he takes Jon and Dawn and makes his way back to Starfall to return the sword. (I don't think this is a big deal, I think it's very much in Ned's character. He must feel awful about killing a man as great as Arthur Dayne, who was just doing his job to protect his sister. Or whatever.) Ashara realizes that since she was the one who told Ned to go to the Tower of Joy, and he ended up killing her brother, she is partly responsible for her brother's death. She cannot live with the fact that the man she loved killed her brother; she kills herself. I think that one's the most realistic and understandable one I've seen yet, lol. While this is the most rational theory I have seen for Ashara killing herself, I just don't buy it. None of these seem like a good enough reason to kill yourself. I mean Ashara HAD to have known that there were some risks involved with being a member of the KG, and I'm sure she must have thought once or twice about Arthur being killed during the war. I think that Arthur, and possibly Ashara, would have wanted someone like Ned to be the one to do the killing. I mean he wasn't killed by some dirt bag like Gregor. However, I just don't buy the fact that Ashara is dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joy Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 Oh my lord, this is making me want to read the next book so bad... I have a couple of questions that I'd like to see answered, and I hope that they will be! 1. I know it's been mentioned before. But, where is Tysha? If she's one of the courtesans in Braavos, that would be rad. I don't have any little theories of my own except for that one. 2. Ok, it's old, but I really want to know if Renly and Loras were lovers. Because they seem really adorable, and to have a same sex relationship outed in an extremely popular book would make me very happy. Plus I picked up on that little catch in Loras' voice all on my own, and partly came to this messageboard to see if anybody else shared my crackpot idea. I'm attached to my theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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