First scene of Season 3

[Loras]

Yep, giant army of zombies marching towards 300 Night's Watchmen at a fortified mountain base. Cut to black. Definitely no promise of a battle there.

My argument was that the focus in the Season 2 finale was Sam, Grenn and Edd - away from the rest of the Night's Watch. It was all about Sam - he was the one in direct danger at the end of the season, we should have been astute enough to realise that the "battle" such as it is would be told from his viewpoint.

Knowing about the first scene of the season makes the choice of staging for the S2 finale crystal clear IMO. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

[Honourable Ser]

Wow, this season is going to blow away the others in every respect!

[protar]

My argument was that the focus in the Season 2 finale was Sam, Grenn and Edd - away from the rest of the Night's Watch. It was all about Sam - he was the one in direct danger at the end of the season, we should have been astute enough to realise that the "battle" such as it is would be told from his viewpoint.

Knowing about the first scene of the season makes the choice of staging for the S2 finale crystal clear IMO. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I'm sorry but I don't think that that's how viewers will see it. In fact many of the Unsullied seem to be adamant that Sam is dead or soon to be. If they wanted the focus to be on Sam then there was no need to show the massive army.

Cop. Out.

[Pinkie Baelish]

I'm sorry but I don't think that that's how viewers will see it. In fact many of the Unsullied seem to be adamant that Sam is dead or soon to be. If they wanted the focus to be on Sam then there was no need to show the massive army.

Cop. Out.

Is the Unsullied the new term for non-readers? If so, I love it.

[protar]

Is the Unsullied the new term for non-readers? If so, I love it.

It's not new, it's been about for a while actually.

[Pinkie Baelish]

It's not new, it's been about for a while actually.

Either way, it's a great term.

[Loras]

I'm sorry but I don't think that that's how viewers will see it. In fact many of the Unsullied seem to be adamant that Sam is dead or soon to be. If they wanted the focus to be on Sam then there was no need to show the massive army.

Cop. Out.

I'm not disagreeing with you. All I am saying is that given the staging of the Season 2 finale with the three Night's Watch men away from the Fist (and the rest of their brothers), that we should have guessed that this is the way it is going to play out.

I don't think it is much of a cop out to be honest, no more than Tyrion in Season 1 and Theon in Season 2.

I doubt my partner (a non-reader) will care whether there is a battle as long as Sam gets away safely.

[protar]

I'm not disagreeing with you. All I am saying is that given the staging of the Season 2 finale with the three Night's Watch men away from the Fist (and the rest of their brothers), that we should have guessed that this is the way it is going to play out.

I don't think it is much of a cop out to be honest, no more than Tyrion in Season 1 and Theon in Season 2.

I doubt my partner (a non-reader) will care whether there is a battle as long as Sam gets away safely.

The difference between those battles is that we weren't teased it for a year. We find out about the battle minutes before it...well ends up not being shown so it's a brief disappointment but you get over it. Not so here.

I'm also a tad baffled as to why they decided to go down this inevitably controversial route. I was under the impression that they had the same budget as S2, perhaps even more than S2 and yet they have no BW to eat up budget. So I was expecting that they could spread it more evenly over the large, but not super large fights in S3, the battle at The Fist being one of them.

I'm also annoyed that:

Sam failed to get the ravens off and Jorah was pissed off at him for it. It takes away a good demonstration of the fact that despite his terror Sam is still competent. It also makes Jorah look like a bit of a jerkass sending Sam off to collect moose poo and then blaming him for not being with the ravens back at the base, not to mention making him look bad at organising his men.

[Loras]

The difference between those battles is that we weren't teased it for a year. We find out about the battle minutes before it...well ends up not being shown so it's a brief disappointment but you get over it. Not so here.

I don't agree here, particularly with the Theon arc in Season 2. The end of the Theon arc is the biggest cop out in the show so far. Everybody was waiting to see Theon get his comeuppance for betraying Robb, killing "Bran" and "Rickon", taking WInterfell and beheading Ser Rodrik. The momentum really builds as Theon gives his resounding speech waiting for his end - only to be knocked out...

...it was a real anti-climax - especially for something that had been building up for the entire year. That is a bigger problem for me rather than this scene with Sam.

I'm also a tad baffled as to why they decided to go down this inevitably controversial route. I was under the impression that they had the same budget as S2, perhaps even more than S2 and yet they have no BW to eat up budget. So I was expecting that they could spread it more evenly over the large, but not super large fights in S3, the battle at The Fist being one of them.

I'm also annoyed that:

Sam failed to get the ravens off and Jorah was pissed off at him for it. It takes away a good demonstration of the fact that despite his terror Sam is still competent. It also makes Jorah look like a bit of a jerkass sending Sam off to collect moose poo and then blaming him for not being with the ravens back at the base, not to mention making him look bad at organising his men.

In answer to your first point, maybe they have had to spend more of their budget on extras for certain events this season? They have certainly had to spend more money on VFX than in Season 2...

From what we know already...

It looks like wee Drogon gets more screentime in the first episode than he did for the entirety of Season 2! And there is talk of a giant in the first episode...

I do get your second point though. I wonder how that relationship is going to develop through the first half of the season.

[kevin1989]

The difference between those battles is that we weren't teased it for a year. We find out about the battle minutes before it...well ends up not being shown so it's a brief disappointment but you get over it. Not so here.

I'm also a tad baffled as to why they decided to go down this inevitably controversial route. I was under the impression that they had the same budget as S2, perhaps even more than S2 and yet they have no BW to eat up budget. So I was expecting that they could spread it more evenly over the large, but not super large fights in S3, the battle at The Fist being one of them.

I'm also annoyed that:

Sam failed to get the ravens off and Jorah was pissed off at him for it. It takes away a good demonstration of the fact that despite his terror Sam is still competent. It also makes Jorah look like a bit of a jerkass sending Sam off to collect moose poo and then blaming him for not being with the ravens back at the base, not to mention making him look bad at organising his men.

First of all, the budget were the same than last year, and other things are more important this season.

Dragons, giants, climbing the wall, RW etc etc etc, it's a very expensive season to put to screen and better they don't show this battle off screen or a little bit shorter than showing a big battle here and destroy the RW for instance. And we get probably a battle at castle black. Oh and don''t forget many new sets, cost very much. And about Sam being heroic, probably episode 2 where we see him kill an other.

[protar]

I don't agree here, particularly with the Theon arc in Season 2. The end of the Theon arc is the biggest cop out in the show so far. Everybody was waiting to see Theon get his comeuppance for betraying Robb, killing "Bran" and "Rickon", taking WInterfell and beheading Ser Rodrik. The momentum really builds as Theon gives his resounding speech waiting for his end - only to be knocked out...

...it was a real anti-climax - especially for something that had been building up for the entire year. That is a bigger problem for me rather than this scene with Sam.

Oh I agree that the end of Theon's arc was a cop out. And coming at the end of an otherwise amazing storyline it was even more disappointing.

As to the budget, I know there's a lot of expensive stuff, but it seems to me that if they really didn't have enough budget to show the battle at the Fist in all it's glory, they shouldn't have made it the cliffhanger for S2. If they'd opened season three with that scene, then just showing the aftermath would be a lot more forgivable imo.

[Loras]

Oh I agree that the end of Theon's arc was a cop out. And coming at the end of an otherwise amazing storyline it was even more disappointing.

As to the budget, I know there's a lot of expensive stuff, but it seems to me that if they really didn't have enough budget to show the battle at the Fist in all it's glory, they shouldn't have made it the cliffhanger for S2. If they'd opened season three with that scene, then just showing the aftermath would be a lot more forgivable imo.

I actually can't think of a better cliffhanger for Season 2 than what they came up with.

On the payoff...

I actually think it might work really well for the evolution of Samwell's character this season. In my head I am seeing his storyline being received in a similar way to Theon's last year - catapulting him to a 'major' character.

The first part of his arc, involves the flight from the Wight who is attacking the brothers at the Fist of the First men. This still shows that he is a coward, more likely to run than fight (FWIW I'd be running too). He then spends time at Craster's, where the Old Bear is murdered and he and Gilly flee.

I think it would be incredibly tense to have Sam and Gilly playing cat and mouse with a Walker. In my head it is similar to Andrea and the Governor in this weeks 'The Walking Dead'. It could be given a real horror edge to it. Anyway, they are eventually cornered by the Walker and Sam has to stand up for himself - the slayer scene.

That would be a really strong arc for him as a character - it works well with what Joer says to him at the end of the Fist sequence, it builds the Walkers as a stronger more sinister threat for longer (rather than have them disappear for a very long time after the Fist) and meant that the scene where Jon sees a Walker in season 2 is not entirely pointless!

I'm now going to be disappointed if it doesn't turn out this way :P! But then, I have always loved the books (and the show) for the character work rather than the big set pieces.

[Currawong]

Why do people want to see all these battle scenes in massive detail? They are just repetitive blood and guts stuff, and frankly, a complete waste of time to do in any level of detail more than once or twice. When you have a limited budget stretched across such a massive undertaking as GoT, you focus on the essentials and only show those battles that are really necessary to do on screen, like Blackwater, and like all the bloodshed in the RW.

[protar]

Why do people want to see all these battle scenes in massive detail? They are just repetitive blood and guts stuff, and frankly, a complete waste of time to do in any level of detail more than once or twice. When you have a limited budget stretched across such a massive undertaking as GoT, you focus on the essentials and only show those battles that are really necessary to do on screen, like Blackwater, and like all the bloodshed in the RW.

Because most of the audience likes battles. Plain and simple. It's not like we're asking for a huge ordeal every time there's some fighting. Just a few minutes demonstrating what the WW's can do is all I'm asking.

This battle that sadly we aren't going to see would've been different from any other as it would've been the first major CGI battle which be epic if done well. And there could've been a mini-plot of Sam getting the ravens off, so the battle itself has a narrative of it's own, however small.

[kevin1989]

Because most of the audience likes battles. Plain and simple. It's not like we're asking for a huge ordeal every time there's some fighting. Just a few minutes demonstrating what the WW's can do is all I'm asking.

This battle that sadly we aren't going to see would've been different from any other as it would've been the first major CGI battle which be epic if done well. And there could've been a mini-plot of Sam getting the ravens off, so the battle itself has a narrative of it's own, however small.

Show isn't the books. And why can't it be amazing if they don't show the battle, people are trilled and hope that Sam lives. Personally I liked the idea that we see everything through him. We see Sam surviving, later we hear the Old bear about the battle shortly, and the audience is, oh yeah there was a battle, and those are the survivors of it.

The only thing that worries me is, Sam the Slayer, I think that he will save the old bear in the show by killing an other, probably when they are camping between Crasten's keep and the battle. Or saving Gilly? that we see this in episode 6 or 7?

[Joyful Union]

Oh I agree that the end of Theon's arc was a cop out. And coming at the end of an otherwise amazing storyline it was even more disappointing.

As to the budget, I know there's a lot of expensive stuff, but it seems to me that if they really didn't have enough budget to show the battle at the Fist in all it's glory, they shouldn't have made it the cliffhanger for S2. If they'd opened season three with that scene, then just showing the aftermath would be a lot more forgivable imo.

Well, you seem to think everything in the show was a copout, so theres little point in arguing.

[Shadow on the Wall]

Maybe we should wait till episode 1 actually airs before gunning it down?

Personally, as a book reader, I'm not hyped about the battle at the Fist at all because we didn't read about it directly in the book. Instead we got a second hand account. So if it's in, that's great, but if it's not, I'm not going to get pissed. Not sure how non-book readers will feel but we should find out in time.

Some expensive scenes this season should include:

Dragons + Dracarys at Astapor

Battle at Yunkai

RW

SFX for Giants, maybe mammoths, direwolves

Beric Dondarrion's flaming sword battle

Bear pit scene for Jaime Brienne

So it does seem like the budget will have to be spread much more thinly than last season - although I expect it is bigger.

[protar]

Well, you seem to think everything in the show was a copout, so theres little point in arguing.

"Sigh" Yes, two scenes equal the entire show.

I am not happy with a lot of things on the show but a cop out is a specific complaint, i.e promising a story development and then not showing us it.

[protar]

Show isn't the books. And why can't it be amazing if they don't show the battle, people are trilled and hope that Sam lives. Personally I liked the idea that we see everything through him. We see Sam surviving, later we hear the Old bear about the battle shortly, and the audience is, oh yeah there was a battle, and those are the survivors of it.

The only thing that worries me is, Sam the Slayer, I think that he will save the old bear in the show by killing an other, probably when they are camping between Crasten's keep and the battle. Or saving Gilly? that we see this in episode 6 or 7?

But the cliffhanger didn't hint to Sam's thrilling escape, it hinted at a massive battle. So regardless of how thrilling Sam's escape is it still isn't following up on the promise that D+D made. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this, and of course once the episode airs we could find out it's so epic that it'll make up for the missed battle at the Fist.

[Currawong]

But the cliffhanger didn't hint to Sam's thrilling escape, it hinted at a massive battle. So regardless of how thrilling Sam's escape is it still isn't following up on the promise that D+D made

Well, that's your interpretation of it. All I saw was a lot of White Walkers ignoring Sam and heading very slowly towards the Wall - the whole point is that we don't know 'what' happened, or - perhaps more importantly - why they completely ignored Sam. We think that something massive is going to happen, but we could be right, we could be wrong. That is the whole point of a cliffhanger! Don't blame the writers or say they didn't follow up on some 'promise' just because they didn't do what you wanted or thought they 'should' do.

You condemned so much from last season that I started to wonder why you were bothering watching the show at all. Please don't start nitpicking about Season 3 on the basis of a mere couple of seconds.