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Ice Turtle

Moments of Foreshadowing 2

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In ASoS Jon III, where Jon and Ygritte are in the cave and the "lord's kiss"

A sinkhole in the center of the floor opened on what might have been an even greater cavern below, though the darkness made it hard to tell. Jon could hear the soft rushing sound of an underground stream somewhere below.

In ADwD Bran II, Coldhands tells Bran "The back door is three leagues north, down a sinkhole."

The CotF cave also has an underground river, and that could be the exact same underground river Jon heard in ASoS. Jon and the wildlings may have unwittingly found the back door, and Jon may visit it again if he goes in that direction for some reason, but it will spell trouble if Mel and the Queen's men accompany him.

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Not sure if anyone has mentioned this but when Tyrion kills Shae I think it could possibly be foreshadowing one of two things.

1. Because Tyrion loves Shae but not Sansa it could be saying that Sansa will live, or at least will not die because of Tyrion.

Or

2. That Tyrion and Sansa will get back together, Tyrion loves Shae but not Sansa at the start it could be foreshadowing that they are swapping places (that Tyrion will love Sansa but not Shae).

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Ship names seem to be replete with foreshadowing, especially in the Blackwater battle.

“My Kingslander’s burning, Queen Cersei, Loyal Man. Look, that’s Seaflower, there.” He pointed with his new sword, out to where the green flames were licking at Seaflower’s golden hull and creeping up her oars. Her captain had turned her upriver, but not quickly enough to evade the wildfire.

The most obvious is Loyal Man burning which points to Sandor Clegane whose Lannister loyalty goes up in wildfire flames this battle. Seaflower was an actual ship with an interesting history that seems to point toward Tyrion's future. The connection to King Philip's War seems appropriate as well.

Another fairly obvious reference is:

To starboard of Allard’s Lady Marya were the three galleys that Stannis had seized from the unfortunate Lord Sunglass, Piety, Prayer, and Devotion

Directly ahead, Davos saw the enemy’s Kingslander drive between Faithful and Sceptre. The former slid her starboard oars out of the way before impact, but Sceptre’s portside oars snapped like so much kindling as Kingslander raked along her side.

This does sound very much like the situation with rearmed Faith vs the Iron Throne with a threat of a popular uprising in Kings Landing. We also have this which doesn't seem to have happened yet

Sceptre had lost most of her oars, and Faithful had been rammed and was starting to list.

Lord Velaryon’s silver-hulled Pride of Driftmark had moved into her position to port of Wraith, and Bold Laughter was coming up fast, but Harridan was only now getting her oars into the water and Seahorse was still struggling to bring down her mast.

Harridan seems likely to refer to the Queen of Thorns. LF explicity calls her a harridan to Sansa and this also fits with her just joining the Game of Thrones.

If so then things like this have interesting implications:

Harridan and Seahorse had slipped into their places now, and Lord Celtigar’s Red Claw beyond them.

There is a Seahorse in House Velaryon's arms and it may provide a clue as to Aurane Waters intentions. It becomes more interesting with:

warhorns sounded from the Pride of Driftmark.

With Sandor supposedly on the Quiet Isle this becomes quite interesting as well:

Davos recognized the dog’s-head helm of the Hound. A white cloak streamed from his shoulders as he rode his horse up the plank onto the deck of Prayer, hacking down anyone who blundered within reach.

There's seems to be something to Queen Alysanne as well but I can't quite piece that one together.

Men-at-arms were scrambling on Queen Alysanne’s deck, and he could see smoke rising from three different spots on Dragonsbane

Queen Alysanne was locked between Lady of Silk and Lady’s Shame, her crew fighting the boarders rail-to-rail.

For those few instants, Black Betha and White Hart were the calm eye in the midst of the storm. Queen Alysanne and Lady of Silk, still locked together, were a ranging green inferno, drifting downriver and dragging pieces of Lady’s Shame.

There's a lot more in that battle that has great potential.

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When Dany looks across the Dothraki Sea for the first time in AGOT (P. 226 mass market US paperback), Jorah is with her. He tells her,

"There are a hundred kinds of grass out there, grasses as yellow as lemon and as dark as indigo, blue grasses and orange grasses and grasses like rainbows. Down in the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai, they say there are oceans of ghost grass, taller than a man on horseback with stalks as pale as milkglass. It murders all other grass and glows in the dark with the spirits of the damned. The Dothraki claim that someday ghost grass will cover the entire world, and all life will end."

Maybe I'm just grasping at straws here, but could this be seen as a foreshadowing of Renly's murder? It mentions rainbows (Renly's KG), shadows (the assassin), spirits of the damned (the kinslayer is accursed), and the fact the ghost grass will cover the entire world (the majority of Renly's host siding with Stannis afterwards).

ETA- Now I know I'm grasping at straws with this one, which could be foreshadowing something yet to happen (but probably not), but I'll post it anyway. From Tyrion's POV in AGOT (P. 127 mass market US paperback).

"Tyrion was the last to retire, as always. As he stepped into the shelter his men had built for him, he paused and looked back at Jon Snow. The boy stood near the fire, his face still and hard, looking deep into the flames. Tyrion Lannister smiled sadly and went to bed."

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@ Imp Ryker -- lol, so true about the cheese steak sandwich!

I don't know if you can call if foreshadowing or GRRM twisting the knife, but . . .

In AFFC Jaime goes to the Sept to find Lancel; they have a conversation about Lancel's new and excessive piety and Lancel's lack of interest in his somewhat shopworn wife:

“Our lives are candle flames, says The Seven-Pointed Star. Any errant puff of wind can snuff us out. Death is never far in this world, and seven hells await sinners who do not repent their sins. Pray with me, Jaime.”

“If I do, will you eat a bowl of porridge?” When his coz did not answer, Jaime sighed. “You should be sleeping with your wife, not with the Maid. You need a son with Darry blood if you want to keep this castle.”

“A pile of cold stones. I never asked for it. I never wanted it. I only wanted. ” Lancel shuddered. “Seven save me, but I wanted to be you.”

Jaime had to laugh. “Better me than Blessed Baelor. Darry needs a lion, coz. So does your little Frey. She gets moist between the legs every time someone mentions Hardstone. If she hasn’t bedded him yet, she will soon.”

“If she loves him, I wish them joy of one another.”

A lion shouldn’t have horns. You took the girl to wife.”

and only a few sentences later:

“The brave man slays with a sword, the craven with a wineskin. We are both kingslayers, ser.”

“Robert was no true king. Some might even say that a stag is a lion’s natural prey.” Jaime could feel the bones beneath his cousin’s skin. and something else as well. Lancel was wearing a hair shirt underneath his tunic. “What else did you do, to require so much atonement? Tell me.”

His cousin bowed his head, tears running down his cheeks.

Those tears were all the answer Jaime needed. “You killed the king,” he said, “then you fucked the queen.”

“I never. ”

“. lay with my sweet sister?” Say it. Say it!

“Never spilled my seed in. in her. ”

So it turns out that Jaime, the man who says lions shouldn't have horns, has at least one pair himself. Tsk, tsk.

Then Lancel talks about how a marriage requires consummation and one not consummated can be set aside, a bit of Westerosi law that I assume will be relevant to Sansa's situation sometime in the future. That's not really foreshadowing, though, that's background.

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Arya was forshadowing she'd become a FM in one of her final SoS chapters, when she and mr. Hound are running from the Freys. She became listless and thought she was no one anymore considering her whole family was nearly wiped out.

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@Ragnorak

That was a really good analysis, I think I can answer your question about Queen Alysanne

Men-at-arms were scrambling on Queen Alysanne’s deck, and he could see smoke rising from three different spots on Dragonsbane

Queen Alysanne was locked between Lady of Silk and Lady’s Shame, her crew fighting the boarders rail-to-rail.

For those few instants, Black Betha and White Hart were the calm eye in the midst of the storm. Queen Alysanne and Lady of Silk, still locked together, were a ranging green inferno, drifting downriver and dragging pieces of Lady’s Shame.

Queen Alysanne could be Cersei caught between the Lady of Silk (a whore reference where Cersei uses sex to get what she wants) and Lady's Shame (her walk of shame). "The raging green inferno"; Cersei has been compared to wildfire multiple times since AGoT. Queen Alysanne is still locked with the Lady of Silk, meaning Cersei will still use sex to get what she wants and and "drifting downriver and dragging pieces of Lady's Shame", this could foreshadow Cersei growing worse after her walk of shame.

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@Ragnorak

That was a really good analysis, I think I can answer your question about Queen Alysanne

Queen Alysanne could be Cersei caught between the Lady of Silk (a whore reference where Cersei uses sex to get what she wants) and Lady's Shame (her walk of shame). "The raging green inferno", Cersei has been compared to wildfire multiple times since AGoT, is still locked with the Lady of Silk, meaning Cersei will still use sex to get what she wants and and "drifting downriver and dragging pieces of Lady's Shame", this could foreshadow Cersei growing worse after her walk of shame.

Thank you. I like the way you put that together. There is an actual ship Queen Cersei. Can't remember if it is in both Davos and Tyrion or just Tyrion. That doesn't preclude it being Cersei. Davos notes both Loyal Man and Dog's Nose and his Loyal Man may not be the Hound while it almost certainly is in Tyrion. I did get a dragon association feel from it (Dragonsbane is in that mix) so I was pondering Dany, but didn't get very far. The Davos Blackwater chapter in particular is rich in speculative material.

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Thank you. I like the way you put that together. There is an actual ship Queen Cersei. Can't remember if it is in both Davos and Tyrion or just Tyrion. That doesn't preclude it being Cersei. Davos notes both Loyal Man and Dog's Nose and his Loyal Man may not be the Hound while it almost certainly is in Tyrion. I did get a dragon association feel from it (Dragonsbane is in that mix) so I was pondering Dany, but didn't get very far. The Davos Blackwater chapter in particular is rich in speculative material.

Also, in AFfC, Cersei reveals that when she was a girl she drew a picture of her and Rhaegar riding a dragon, and when Jaime asked who it was she was drawing she said it was King Jaehaerys I and Queen Alysanne.

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Great connection with Ramsay, as always just in awe of the connections you find in these books.

I've been thinking for a while we're going to have a new tale of horror from the Nightfort, with Selyse planning on moving in soon what about Patchface as the modern Mad Axe. I can't recall any talk of his size but the noise he makes is a common theme whenever he's mentioned. Perhaps he'll take off his bells one night and go creeping through the halls.

Though Mel seeing the blood on his lips might mean he has a different fate.

I just wanted to tell you that I read your post before going to bed tonight, and I wanted to write that what I'd read would surely give me nightmares, but I saw that it was two pages back[haven't been on the forum for a while because of exams] and decided not to.

Well, here I am a few hours later, after having a very vivid nightmare that my grandmother tried to kill me with an axe because she was being warged/skin-changed by Bloodraven.

Which got me thinking about this of course.

Could Mad Axe have been 'possessed' by a powerful greenseer of the wildlings and that's why he'd killed the men in their sleep?

What if Bloodraven or *shudders* Bran possesses someone of the Watch to kill Jon's attackers?

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But when she [Cersei] cracked the first egg and found a bloody half-formed chick inside, her stomach roiled.

This before Tommen's wedding, and Cersei rules in her own right. Eggs and chicks are symbols of rebirth, and like the bloody half-formed chick implies, Cersei's reign will be a bloody mess.

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I just wanted to tell you that I read your post before going to bed tonight, and I wanted to write that what I'd read would surely give me nightmares, but I saw that it was two pages back[haven't been on the forum for a while because of exams] and decided not to.

Well, here I am a few hours later, after having a very vivid nightmare that my grandmother tried to kill me with an axe because she was being warged/skin-changed by Bloodraven.

Which got me thinking about this of course.

Could Mad Axe have been 'possessed' by a powerful greenseer of the wildlings and that's why he'd killed the men in their sleep?

What if Bloodraven or *shudders* Bran possesses someone of the Watch to kill Jon's attackers?

I have the idea that the Nightfort is the basis of so many horror stories and has such a grim reputation because the weirwood gate puts out some crazy psycho killer vibes but that's an intersesting idea. We know there's the whole subculture of wargs up there beyond the Wall and they apparantly try to warg people enough to lay down some law about it and name it abomination.

I know we see what happened with Thistle makes it hard to see warging people beyond Hodor as a successfull venture but reading that just made something pop into my head.

What happens when you warg a person that's asleep?

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"One skinchanger can always sense another. Mance should have let me take the direwolf. There would be a second life worthy of a king. He could have done it, he did not doubt. The gift was strong in Snow, but the youth was untaught, still fighting his nature when he should have gloried in it."

Think about it.

Mind-f*cking-blown!

By the way whose words are those?

ETA: Found it, it's Varamyr.

Also, Mind-f*cking-blown! :bowdown:

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The bathhouse had been thick with the steam rising off the water, and Jaime had come walking through that mist naked as his name day, looking half a corpse and half a god.

Black had never been a happy color on her. With her fair skin, it made her look half a corpse herself.

In AFFC, Brienne describes Jaime (and Cersei describes herself) as looking like "half a corpse". This could indicate something about these two characters' futures: Cersei talking about looking "half a corpse" because of her "fair skin" could indicate that she'll contract greyscale (half of her will be "dead" because half of her skin will no longer be fair---but grey). And Jaime looking "half a god" and "half a corpse" while climbing into a stone tub could indicate a future connection (or trial by?) the Old Gods, given that the greenseers appear to basically be the Old Gods and all of our living greenseers are sitting in a stone cave.

In a more general sense, the fact that both of them are described as looking "half a corpse" could be a hint that they'll die together: each is half a corpse, so put them together and you get a whole corpse. Or alternatively, that they won't die together: Cersei dying before Jaime (or vice versa) leaves them both "half a corpse" because the dead one would have their "other half" still alive, and the live one would have their "other half" dead.

Moreover, Jaime is presented in imagery reminiscent of Winterfell (steam rising off the bathhouse water = the steam rising off Winterfell's hot springs), and Cersei makes her "half a corpse" comment right before mentioning how she "had risen an hour before dawn to bathe and fix her hair"---the hour before dawn is the hour of the wolf. Is this a hint that they'll both be killed by Starks?

Bran had not heard so much laughing since the night the bloody raven came. If I had my legs, I'd knock all of them into the water, he thought bitterly. No one would ever be lord of the crossing but me.

Bran thinking about 1) the bloody raven and 2) knocking people into the water reminds me of Mel's "towers by the sea" vision, which some have speculated refers to the greenseers bringing the Hammer of the Waters down on Pyke. The "bloody raven" would indicate Bloodraven, Bran's future greenseer teacher, and knocking down people, including the "twin towers"---associated Freys, into the water---this could foreshadow Bran bringing down the Hammer of the Waters.

Bran thinking about how "no one would ever be lord of the crossing but him" could serve as a general hint that the Freys will be destroyed (they'll lose their status as Lords of the Crossing due to either Bran's actions or due to the actions of the greenseers in general). Moreover, Bran once remembered a time when he went fishing with Jon and Robb, and because he caught nothing, Jon gave him his trout---the trout is associated with House Tully and lordship over the Riverlands. So Bran thinking about how nobody would ever be Lord of the Crossing but him, along with the imagery of Jon giving him a trout, could indicate that Bran will one day be put in control of the Riverlands.

At Winterfell, the squires build "snowy sentinels on the walls", along with dozen "snow lords":

One was plainly meant to be Lord Manderly; it was the fattest snowman that Theon had ever seen. The one-armed lord could only be Harwood Stout, the snow lady Barbrey Dustin. And the one closest to the door with the beard made of icicles had to be old Whoresbane Umber.

Interesting that there's no "snow Roose" or "snow Ramsay" mentioned here, especially given the mention of "snowy sentinels on the walls" (as readers know the sentinels on the Wall were of course ruled over by Snow). I wonder if the "snow lords" Theon lists are meant to foreshadow future "Snow" supporters (i.e., they're lords who will end up supporting, or may already be supporting, Jon)?

At the Nightfort, Bran relates the story of "the thing that came in the night":

The 'prentice boys all saw it, Old Nan said, but afterward when they told their Lord Commander every description had been different. And three died within the year, and the fourth went mad, and a hundred years later when the thing had come again, the 'prentice boys were seen shambling along behind it, all in chains.

And then Bran, hearing Sam coming up from the well, thinks Sam is "the thing that came in the night". Given Sam's placement at the Citadel---a place associated with people in chains---could this be a hint that Sam will attain some form of position of power at the Citadel? The "chained" apprentice boys following after "the thing that came in the night" would then foreshadow the chained maesters (or maester apprentices) following Sam.

This is kind of random, but Ser Richard Horpe's sigil is three death's-head moths. Moths are, of course, attracted to (and destroyed by) flames (and Horpe is in the service of a guy who burns people alive), which . . . could be a hint as to Horpe's eventual fate. Alternatively, Horpe's story (passed over by Robert for the Kingsguard, ended up supporting Stannis's "rebellion") has echoes of Ser Quentyn Ball's story (passed over by Dareon II for a spot in the Kingsguard, ended up supporting Daemon Blackfyre's rebellion), and Ball's nickname was of course Fireball, so we have one rebel passed over for the Kingsguard who's associated with moths, and one rebel passed over for the Kingsguard who's associated with flames. Red-haired Connington seems to serve as "Fireball" to Aegon, and I wonder if Horpe might end up being a new "Fireball" to Jon? Especially as Stannis once referred to Horpe as "the slayer" (Stannis: "Which would you have as Lord of Winterfell, Snow? The smiler [Massey] or the slayer [Horpe]?"), a nickname that of course is also associated with Jon's BFF Sam.

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In a more general sense, the fact that both of them are described as looking "half a corpse" could be a hint that they'll die together: each is half a corpse, so put them together and you get a whole corpse. Or alternatively, that they won't die together: Cersei dying before Jaime (or vice versa) leaves them both "half a corpse" because the dead one would have their "other half" still alive, and the live one would have their "other half" dead.

If the "half a corpse" thing is meant as foreshadowing, I think it's this.

Bran thinking about 1) the bloody raven and 2) knocking people into the water reminds me of Mel's "towers by the sea" vision, which some have speculated refers to the greenseers bringing the Hammer of the Waters down on Pyke. The "bloody raven" would indicate Bloodraven, Bran's future greenseer teacher, and knocking down people, including the "twin towers"---associated Freys, into the water---this could foreshadow Bran bringing down the Hammer of the Waters.

Bran thinking about how "no one would ever be lord of the crossing but him" could serve as a general hint that the Freys will be destroyed (they'll lose their status as Lords of the Crossing due to either Bran's actions or due to the actions of the greenseers in general). Moreover, Bran once remembered a time when he went fishing with Jon and Robb, and because he caught nothing, Jon gave him his trout---the trout is associated with House Tully and lordship over the Riverlands. So Bran thinking about how nobody would ever be Lord of the Crossing but him, along with the imagery of Jon giving him a trout, could indicate that Bran will one day be put in control of the Riverlands.

This is my favorite part of the post, especially the clues that Bran might end up controlling the Riverlands. :)

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If the "half a corpse" thing is meant as foreshadowing, I think it's this.

Cersei said the she and Jaime are one person in two people, and she calls Jaime her other half. So they would each make half of a corpse.

"Lord Bolton is very fond of leeches," Qyburn said primly.

"Yes," said Jaime. "He would be."

Combined with the foreshadowing of the leeches Stannis has burned to kill three kings, among them Robb Stark, and it foreshadows, the Leech Lord, Roose Bolton, is the one who kills him.

ETA: I think Quentyn Martell is just as qualified for the nickname "Fireball".

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This might have already been discussed because upon a reread the message seems rather obvious, but bear with me, please I'm on a lion kick.

Gone down into the earth … Into the stones, into the trees. Before the First Men came all this land that you call Westeros was home to us, yet even in those days we were few. The gods gave us long lives but not great numbers, lest we overrun the world as deer will overrun a wood where there are no wolves to hunt them. That was in the dawn of days, when our sun was rising. Now it sinks, and this is our long dwindling. The giants are almost gone as well, they who were our bane and our brothers. The great lions of the western hills have been slain, the unicorns are all but gone, the mammoths down to a few hundred. The direwolves will outlast us all.

The giants are almost gone: the Baelish's original sigil was the giant of Braavos, could Leaf's statement mean that Littlefinger's luck is running out?

The great lions of the western hills have been slain: Tywin and his direct descendants, Jaime, Cersei, Tyrion, Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen, could be considered the "great lions of the western hills." It's been my theory that Tywin and his line will be wiped out as payback for the annihilation of the Reynes and Tarbecks, as well as punishment for their individual sins. (Maybe then the minstrels will stop singing "The Rains of Castamere.") The minor lions will remain.

The direwolves will outlast us all: the Starks will prevail at last, thank the gods.

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Bran thinking about 1) the bloody raven and 2) knocking people into the water reminds me of Mel's "towers by the sea" vision, which some have speculated refers to the greenseers bringing the Hammer of the Waters down on Pyke. The "bloody raven" would indicate Bloodraven, Bran's future greenseer teacher, and knocking down people, including the "twin towers"---associated Freys, into the water---this could foreshadow Bran bringing down the Hammer of the Waters.

Bran thinking about how "no one would ever be lord of the crossing but him" could serve as a general hint that the Freys will be destroyed (they'll lose their status as Lords of the Crossing due to either Bran's actions or due to the actions of the greenseers in general). Moreover, Bran once remembered a time when he went fishing with Jon and Robb, and because he caught nothing, Jon gave him his trout---the trout is associated with House Tully and lordship over the Riverlands. So Bran thinking about how nobody would ever be Lord of the Crossing but him, along with the imagery of Jon giving him a trout, could indicate that Bran will one day be put in control of the Riverlands.

:bowdown:

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This may be nothing but I thought I'd run it by everyone here, see what you think. In Jon's first POV chapter in AGoT when we first see Benjen, he's sitting down with Jon and from all the choice food laid out on the table he picks up an onion:

A connection to Davos in the future? Will Davos find Benjen?

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I have the idea that the Nightfort is the basis of so many horror stories and has such a grim reputation because the weirwood gate puts out some crazy psycho killer vibes but that's an intersesting idea. We know there's the whole subculture of wargs up there beyond the Wall and they apparantly try to warg people enough to lay down some law about it and name it abomination.

I know we see what happened with Thistle makes it hard to see warging people beyond Hodor as a successfull venture but reading that just made something pop into my head.

What happens when you warg a person that's asleep?

Exactly my thinking. Thistle fought, but she was awake, wasn't she?

If you're asleep your mind defenses would be low, and it would be easy for a powerful skinchanger to take over you, wouldn't it?

I think there must be a reason possessing another human being is such a taboo even beyond the Wall.

I just remembered how Jon couldn't 'sense' Ghost when Jon was back on this side of the Wall, and Ghost was still beyond.

I think the Weirwood Gate allows magic from beyond the Wall to 'leek' through, or lets off psycho vibes, as you say :D

All I know is that I can hardly wait for Selyse to move in there. :D Although for the sake of my sleep, I hope we won't get to see Patchface with an axe.

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