Moments of Foreshadowing 2

[FittleLinger]

I think this foreshadows Rickon becoming Lord of Winterfell after Robb and before Bran.

Or maybe the order of their death? Don't get me wrong, I don't want Rickon to die, but maybe he will live long as Winterfell ruler/King of the North, but Bran seems to take Bloodraven's steps and is likely to live a long long long time, but never ruling WF. Anyway, a good catch.

ETA: Oh, and by the way, Bran already technically ruled WF prior to Theon taking it.

[Franz95]

So, little Rickon won't get to see the next spring, or will he give up his seat to Bran?

I meant he would give it up. However briefly, he's still a son of the Ned, it's a lesson he should have learned.

[NotSoSilentSister]

I would going by the definition:

Well, words don't just have definitions, they also have connotations. And in this particular context, 'afterthought' was apparently used with the connotation "a story element with more of an ornamental function" ( otherwise, why conclude thatSansa can be killed off after having served her purpose of highlighting how unconventional Arya is?) - I don't think that applies to Sansa or the dragons, even if they were added later. Doesn't tell us much about the liklihood of their survival either way, admittedly.

[ARYa_Nym]

Well, words don't just have definitions, they also have connotations. And in this particular context, 'afterthought' was apparently used with the connotation "a story element with more of an ornamental function" ( otherwise, why conclude thatSansa can be killed off after having served her purpose of highlighting how unconventional Arya is?) - I don't think that applies to Sansa or the dragons, even if they were added later. Doesn't tell us much about the liklihood of their survival either way, admittedly.

They have connotations if you're looking too hard into it. I'm pretty sure I never said anything about being an afterthought means that a character will die or that they're not important to the story. I didn't address that at all.

Oh, Septon Merribald is a priest now, seems like successfully stopping killing to me. I'm kind of ignoring your implication that I'm advocating for the killing-off of veterans, I mean, clearly, this is about what is likely to happen, not about what should happen in a just and good world. All I'm saying is that Arya's ending, whether she survives or not, is more likely to be on the bitter end of the bitter-sweet ending scale.

You mentioned him as one of the damaged men and earlier used that as a reasoning as to why Arya would die.

You also said Arya will feel lost and Cat saw her as a Warrior so I'm assuming that all the other characters who will assume a similar role will die as well according to this theory.

[Frey Pie]

Ahh i remember one from Jons last chapter. Dont know the exact quotes but Edd said something like he knew someone who died from eating a pomegranate. Two minutes later, Jon gets stabbed in the back by Marsh, aka the Old Pomegranate

[NotSoSilentSister]

They have connotations if you're looking too hard into it. I'm pretty sure I never said anything about being an afterthought means that a character will die or that they're not important to the story. I didn't address that at all.

But the original comment I reacted to was based on that notion.

I mentionned him to give some context for the damaged men, because it was him who explained their plight to Brienne. Could have been more precise about the wording.

[tze]

In ASOS, Jon and Ygritte discussed the tale of Gendel and Gorne, two brothers who jointly became Kings-Beyond-The-Wall. Both of them emerged from caves beneath the earth. Gorne killed the King in the North, and was killed in turn, while Gendel ended up trapped beneath the earth. His "children" are said to still dwell beneath the earth. Jon spent some time in a cave beyond the Wall, and chose to leave that cave rather than stay there forever. In ADWD, Jon dreamed he killed Robb, the King in the North, and was quite possibly killed himself by the conspirators. Bran is now trapped in a cave beneath the earth with the Children. Jon = Gorne, and Bran = Gendel.

[NotSoSilentSister]

Another point to consider for the Arya--Deathwatch: her encounter with the Ghost of High Heart:

The dwarf woman studied her with dim red eyes. "I see you," she whispered. "I see you, wolf child. Blood child. I thought it was the lord who smelled of death . . . " She began to sob, her little body shaking. "You are cruel to come to my hill, cruel. I gorged on grief at Summerhall, I need none of yours. Begone from here, dark heart. Begone!"

Of course, that could just refer to the grief Arya has already experienced at that point (and the grief soon to come through the Red Wedding) and the death she herself has already brought and will bring in the future. At any rate, the woodswitch doesn't see anything pleasant in Arya's future.

And that's the really troubling thing about Arya's storyline - not just the presence of portents of doom (all Stark kids have unsettling dreams soaked in death and destruction) but the absence of any forshadowing for any kind of future, after the War for Dawn. There's potential forshadowing for Bran becoming a tree (and maybe he gets to be Bran the REbuilder of Winterfell before that), Jon becoming a King (or, my preferred version, a Gift Lord, as Ned initially intended), Sansa becoming a Lady or even a Queen (if she's the younger Queen in Cersei's prophecy for instance). I left out Rickon, because Rickon is generally underdeveloped. There's nothing of that kind for Arya. The least bleak sort of forshadowing for her is that passage where she reflects on the awesome stuff of Nan's stories - Dragons, krakens, the Titan of Bravoos - and how much she would like to see these thing. I think she will get to see all these things before the end of the series, but again, nothing points at a potential future for her after that.

[protar]

Personally, I'd like to see Tysha pay her own debt to Tyrion. In full. With a crossbow.

Yes because clearly Tyrion is the one to blame for what happened toTysha. /Facepalm

[Kittykatknits]

Yes because clearly Tyrion is the one to blame for what happened toTysha. /Facepalm

From Tysha's perspective, it wouldn't matter. She was a gang rape victim and he was one of her rapists.

ETA: She also knows that he stood there and watched the entire thing too...

[protar]

From Tysha's perspective, it wouldn't matter. She was a gang rape victim and he was one of her rapists.

ETA: She also knows that he stood there and watched the entire thing too...

True, but I think it was clear from Queen Cersei's post that she thought Tyrion was to blame and wanted to see him pay. Which is just wrong is all I can say. Tyrion aint perfect but that's one thing he doesn't need to make up for.

[ARYa_Nym]

But the original comment I reacted to was based on that notion.

That was not my original post though.

What I said in my post was that I believe since Sansa was an afterthought if one dies (Arya) it has nothing to do with the other (Sansa).

And that's the really troubling thing about Arya's storyline - not just the presence of portents of doom (all Stark kids have unsettling dreams soaked in death and destruction) but the absence of any forshadowing for any kind of future, after the War for Dawn. There's potential forshadowing for Bran becoming a tree (and maybe he gets to be Bran the REbuilder of Winterfell before that), Jon becoming a King (or, my preferred version, a Gift Lord, as Ned initially intended), Sansa becoming a Lady or even a Queen (if she's the younger Queen in Cersei's prophecy for instance). I left out Rickon, because Rickon is generally underdeveloped. There's nothing of that kind for Arya. The least bleak sort of forshadowing for her is that passage where she reflects on the awesome stuff of Nan's stories - Dragons, krakens, the Titan of Bravoos - and how much she would like to see these thing. I think she will get to see all these things before the end of the series, but again, nothing points at a potential future for her after that.

Bran seems to be the only one who is secure from death unless GRRM decides that he wants to end the series killing off magic.

The series has taught me that kings and queens can die. We have an idea about what Jon and Sansa may become but no confirmation as to where they will be in the end. Jon could always be a sacrifice if GRRM doesn't want to have a typical Aragorn/heroic story.

As for Arya we have no idea what she's going to do at all. She may not physically die but I have possible alternative interpretations to her end.

In Harrenhal she mentions no one and says goodbye to a cat with Stark colors:

"No one saw her, and she saw no one, only a grey and white cat creeping along atop the godswood wall. It stopped and spit at her, waking memories of the Red Keep and her father and Syrio Forel. "I could catch you if I wanted," she called to it softly., "but I have to go, cat." The cat hissed again and ran off.

GRRM was asked on Jon being Frodo and said that Jon was taller. Which I think leaves Bran and/or Arya. Arya's wolf is named after someone who left her home behind never to return and had to make a new life for herself.

GRRM has made the parallels b/w the 3 very close. I'll repost here:

1. Queen Nymeria was a warrior queen. GRRM said that she was more of a commander than a combatant. Nymeria the wolf is the queen of her pack and they could be used as an army of sorts. Arya isn't really a combatant either in the way that Asha or Brienne are but she could command Nymeria's army through warging which could explain why Catelyn saw Arya as a Warrior in ACoK.

2. Queen Nymeria gathered people from different city-states along the river Rhoyne. Nymeria gathered her pack along the Trident.

3. Queen Nymeria had to flee from the Valyrians. Nymeria and Arya had to flee from the Lannisters.

4. Bran called Queen Nymeria a witch queen. Arya could be called a sorceress in the same way BR was-warging. EDIT: Also, with the FM she's learning about poisons and potions.

5. Queen Nymeria didn't have a home for her people. Nymeria doesn't either. Arya went to the FM in part because she felt that she had no where else to go.

6. Queen Nymeria was a Rhoynar. They were associated with ships. Arya in Braavos prefers to hang around sailors the most and her favorite place is the Ragman's Harbor. According to wiki the Rhoynar are:

The Rhoynar are a culture of river-faring people who dwelt on the banks of the immense River Rhoyne

Nymeria is currently living in the Riverlands.

7. The story of Queen Nymeria is one of breaking ties with the past and starting anew. She burned her ships so she could not go back. Queen Nymeria never returned home. Arya is trying to become No One. There will be a point where she can't go back to her past. Nymeria has acquired a new pack. It's unlikely that she will go back to being a domesticated wolf again since she's become so wild and feral.

8. Nymeria and Arya have become ruthless killers.

9. This quote highlights the similarities well:

Nymeria is not only a warrior queen, she's a leader of a people without a home. Arya has a pack. Despite her self-sufficient nature, despite always forging her own path forward, she makes friends wherever she goes, and always has people there protecting her. She's also always moving forward. The longest she's stayed in one place is Braavos, but even her situation kept changing. She'd live with a clam-seller, or in the house of the faceless men, or on the streets...

Due to the parallels and the naming of the wolf it is my belief that neither Arya nor Nymeria will be with the Starks at the end. She may briefly help in some way or become in contact with the remaining Starks though.

[Ice Turtle]

As angry as he was, his father could not help but laugh. “You’re not my son,” he told Bran when they fetched him down, “you’re a squirrel.

I'm no big fan of Bran turning evil theory, but this may indicate that he chooses CotF called squirrel people by giants over Ned's legacy.

[ARYa_Nym]

I'm no big fan of Bran turning evil theory, but this may indicate that he chooses CotF called squirrel people by giants over Ned's legacy.

Arya was also called a squirrel by Greenbeard. Bran also initially thought that she was Leaf.

[NotSoSilentSister]

Due to the parallels and the naming of the wolf it is my belief that neither Arya nor Nymeria will be with the Starks at the end. She may briefly help in some way or become in contact with the remaining Starks though.

Those are fairly compelling parallels, but they don't exactly make me more optimistic about Arya's fate. Nymeria might have acquired a new pack, but Arya hasn't. She was well on her way with Gendry and Hotpie - I agree that she's very personable and easily assimilates into all kinds of mileus - but she has been separated from them and has denounced the idea that they were her new pack. So if Arya is not returning to either the Starks or Gendry & Co., who is going to make up her new pack? Because she's going to need one.... the lone wolf dies....

[Cheese Pudding]

I posted it in the "Small things ..." thread, but, if truth be told, this post should have been posted here.

I love the fact that the first thing Sansa ever said to LF was: "I'm Sansa Stark"

This could be her last sentence to him too.

That happened in Sansa's POV at the tournament, a bit after Thoros knocking off Beric, which is also funny because of their relationship at the BwB.

[ARYa_Nym]

Those are fairly compelling parallels, but they don't exactly make me more optimistic about Arya's fate. Nymeria might have acquired a new pack, but Arya hasn't. She was well on her way with Gendry and Hotpie - I agree that she's very personable and easily assimilates into all kinds of mileus - but she has been separated from them and has denounced the idea that they were her new pack. So if Arya is not returning to either the Starks or Gendry & Co., who is going to make up her new pack? Because she's going to need one.... the lone wolf dies....

Arya is a warg so controlling Nymeria's pack would be her army to use. Cat saw her as a Warrior but she's never going to be fighting like the other people in her vision. She does not have the training so Nymeria's pack seems like the most likely way to do that unless she rides a dragon.

When she left Hot Pie and Gendry behind she started up with a new order of people that she can join.

But anyways, as I said I don't really see the guarantees that any of the remaining Stark will be alive except for Bran. Not that they will all die but it can't be said without a doubt that Arya is the one who has no place and she's the only Stark left who will be dead in the end.

[Jon Flowers]

The dead kings rising to fight in the final battle is a bit lord of the ringsy for martin though?

Considering that he's a big fan of Tolkein. No.

[Jon Flowers]

When Tyrion tells Bronn the story about Tysha, Bronn responds that he would have killed Tywin for what he did to seperate them. Tyrion of course does just that eventually.

[NotSoSilentSister]

Arya is a warg so controlling Nymeria's pack would be her army to use. Cat saw her as a Warrior but she's never going to be fighting like the other people in her vision. She does not have the training so Nymeria's pack seems like the most likely way to do that unless she rides a dragon.

Yes, Nymeria's wolves can be her army, but can they replace human pack-mates? It's not impossible, but I guess it would involve a substantial loss of her humanity, eg. Arya being killed as a human and having to permanently warg into Nymeria. Not the most unlikely scenario, but probably not what you have in mind, I'd guess.