Moments of Foreshadowing 2

[ser naes yennet]

"Jon was walking past the armory, feeling the brief chill of a light snowfall melting on his face. Although his mind was focused on his task, he couldn't shake the feeling that he was the offspring of Lyanna Stark and Rheagar Targaryen."

ASoS Chapter 28

can you be more specific as to where this is in the text. my aSoS has chapter 28 as an Arya chapter, and chapter 26 is a Jon chapter, but this isn't in it. i've read them 2X, and never remember Jon mentioning Rhaegar's name.

[tze]

can you be more specific as to where this is in the text. my aSoS has chapter 28 as an Arya chapter, and chapter 26 is a Jon chapter, but this isn't in it. i've read them 2X, and never remember Jon mentioning Rhaegar's name.

. . . It's a joke. :)

[tyrions sliced nose]

lmao...

[ser naes yennet]

4. Val's hair looked silver in the moonlight.

Detractors will say that Dany's hair is silver gold but let's not pretend that we don't associate Targs with silvery hair. Her hair has been called silver in the books.

2. His face was a shifting shadow.

Jon has been referred to as a shadow.

Mel says:

The moon kissed him as well. Dany was called the moon of Drogo's life. This may be a reach but I think it parallels.

8. Mount to Love. I believe it's Ghost. Jon said that Ghost was part of him. In AGoT Dany sees a great wolf in the fire and in ADWD she hears a wolf in the distance and it makes her feel lonely.

I think it could parallel to Luthien/Huan. Luthien was described as the most beautiful of all her people and Dany has been called the most beautiful woman in the world.

Dany looks like Naerys who GRRM described as having otherworldly beauty so I see an Elven parallel.

9. Jon's time with the wildlings taught him to steal a woman.

Dany thinks the idea of Rhaegar stealing Lyanna is romantic.

10. I believe a parallel here is Jon specifically wishing for a son and Dany losing one. She needs to have a living child.

and it is another case of GRM doing the 'opposite thing'. this time a northern Stark male can 'steal' a female Targ.

[ser naes yennet]

. . . It's a joke. :)

oh, thank the seven. i was scared that slipped by me through 2 reads!!!

HODOR!

[ser naes yennet]

and now to the topic:

in aSoS, in many Arya chapters leading up to RW, when The Hound has her, he says at least 4 or 5 times something similiar to "if we hurry we can make Riverrun in time for your uncle's bloody wedding."

it is done around 4 or 5 times, and once by another character i can;t recall right now. i'll have to check my notes for the other instance, but The Hound says it a bunch.

[Fire Eater]

This is my lot he realized as he undressed, from now until the end of my days.

The end of his days, Bowen and Co. see to that.

[Pellaeon]

LF stated that a pawn sometime think he is a player - maybe he is himself not a player just a pawn

Sansa and he thoughts about Tyrion in her last chapter in ASoS, when LF said she didn't have to share a bed with him any longer and she isn't sure if she want it and that he was kind to her - hopefully a Sansa/Tyrion foreshadowing moment

[Newstar]

There should be a category for things that aren't foreshadowed at all in the books, like big, significant things that happen that truly, absolutely, 100.0% come out of left field. The more I reread this thread, the more I think that it would be a fairly short list, since there is so much foreshadowing packed into the books, especially in AGOT.

Here's a little one:

Arya saying of Joffrey "Someone should kill him!" in ACOK and Yoren telling her "Someone will, but it won't be me, nor you, neither." (He was right on all three counts: someone did kill Joffrey, and it wasn't Yoren, nor Arya.)

LF stated that a pawn sometime think he is a player - maybe he is himself not a player just a pawn

Littlefinger also had that great line:

"In the game of thrones, even the humblest pieces can have wills of their own. Sometimes they refuse to make the moves you've planned."

Littlefinger clearly thinks of Sansa/Alayne as not a player, but a piece. I dearly hope this is foreshadowing for her eventually turning the tables on him and refusing to make the moves Littlefinger has planned for her.

Sansa and he thoughts about Tyrion in her last chapter in ASoS, when LF said she didn't have to share a bed with him any longer and she isn't sure if she want it and that he was kind to her - hopefully a Sansa/Tyrion foreshadowing moment

Any Tyrion/Sansa stuff is a drop in the bucket compared to the huge pile of Hound/Sansa stuff: "I wish the Hound were here," her thinking about him all the time, the fake kiss memory, Sansa's dream about the Hound in bed with her, mistaking Lothor Brune for the Hound when he saves her from Marillion, and so on and so on without turning this into a SanSan Greatest Hits list.

Going back to my point about non-foreshadowed events, the Tyrion/Sansa wedding is interesting, in that it's one of the few big events in the books to date that wasn't foreshadowed (unless you count Sansa praying for Tyrion in ACOK, which I don't). All the other big "twists" in ASOS--Jaime losing his hand, the Red Wedding, Purple Wedding, etc.--or even in the other books were heavily foreshadowed way in advance, if you look hard enough. So that kind of puzzles me. If the Tyrion/Sansa marriage is ultimately nothing more than a plot contrivance, then it would make sense that it wasn't foreshadowed, if it won't be very important in the final analysis except, say, to protect Sansa from getting married off to someone else too quickly.

...With all that said, there are some hints that Tyrion and Sansa could have if not a functioning marriage (since Sansa does express relief that her "mockery of a marriage" is over, and bitterly reflects that Tyrion telling her he could be good to her was "just another Lannister lie") at least a non-antagonistic relationship in the future. I don't know that I'd call these hints foreshadowing, necessarily, but here goes (going from ASOS on):

1. Sansa's reaction to the prospect of widowhood being her stomach fluttering.

2. Sansa thinking that she might never have to "share a bed" with Tyrion again and thinking "That was what she wanted, wasn't it?"

3. Sansa defending Tyrion to Littlefinger: "He did nothing."

4. Sansa almost telling Lysa Tully that Tyrion was kind to her and correcting her assumption that Tyrion was incapable of consummating the marriage. (What does she care if Lysa thinks Tyrion's impotent?)

5. Sansa/Alayne including Tyrion in her mental checklist of people who might theoretically be able to help her in AFFC (although she assumes at the time that he's been executed).

6. Tyrion deliberately pouring out the rest of the wine used to poison Joffrey

7. Tyrion refusing to incriminate Sansa and feeling bound by his marriage vow to protect her

8. Tyrion thinking of Sansa, the girl he thinks framed him for murder, as "the child bride he wed and lost," which is a fairly wistful way of describing her (he also thinks of her as "false," which is again pretty mild under the circumstances)

9. Tyrion comparing Penny, of whom he's quite fond, to Sansa ("He envied Penny all her pretty dreams. Sometimes [Penny] reminded him of Sansa Stark," or however it's phrased)

10. Tyrion's ambiguous reference to the people he misses: "Jaime. Shae. Tysha. My wife, I miss my wife, the wife I hardly knew" (Tysha makes more sense, since he spends a lot of time in ADWD thinking about Tysha, but in the same POV chapter where this quote's from we're reminded that he also married Sansa, and the punctuation's ambiguous)

11. Tyrion's lack of vengeful feelings towards Sansa (compared to his hate-on for Cersei)

In terms of actually foreshadowing anything beyond a non-antagonistic relationship between them, though, there's really not much of anything to go on. GRRM really downplays Tyrion and Sansa's relationship after the PW in favour of the Hound/Sansa and Tyrion/Tysha, there wasn't much foreshadowing before they got married, and I think everyone agrees that the marriage itself was a total trainwreck, so I am inclined to think that the marriage part of their relationship was a plot contrivance and nothing more. Doesn't mean they couldn't make a friendly alliance work, but that seems to be the best anyone could expect, assuming they ever meet again (and it's possible that they won't). It would also be a sign of Tyrion's character growth/redemption if, in the event he ever meets Sansa again, he agrees to an annulment and lets her go on her way with no hard feelings.

Some have speculated that Tyrion is in fact the "savage giant" Sansa has been prophesied to slay, but absent some big change in Tyrion's character development (like a psychotic break) or Sansa's, I can't see that happening at all. I'd have a different opinion if Tyrion had spent ADWD brooding on revenge against Sansa.

In terms of Tyrion/Sansa foreshadowing, though, I think a much more reliable indicator would be how the relationship is treated in the TV show, since D&D apparently know roughly how the story is supposed to shake out for all the major characters. If I were you, Pellaeon, I'd be watching Season 3 very, very closely. To be fair, though, Season 2 seems to have left San/San shippers as confused as ever as to whether their ship is endgame or whether it's effectively dead in the water, so who knows?

[ser naes yennet]

maybe more of a dumb question, but i've seen it a couple times and don't know what event is referenced by "purple wedding". i'm sure it's obvious and i am having a HODOR moment, so thanks in advance.

[The Wolves]

maybe more of a dumb question, but i've seen it a couple times and don't know what event is referenced by "purple wedding". i'm sure it's obvious and i am having a HODOR moment, so thanks in advance.

Joffery's wedding

[ser naes yennet]

Joffery's wedding

got it. that was the only thing that made sense, but woth him being the only victim, it seems just as easy to call it Joff's wedding, it's still only 1 word.

[FittleLinger]

got it. that was the only thing that made sense, but woth him being the only victim, it seems just as easy to call it Joff's wedding, it's still only 1 word.

Yep, but his face gets purple when he chokes, and it sounds more poetic and dramatic :)

[Pellaeon]

There should be a category for things that aren't foreshadowed at all in the books, like big, significant things that happen that truly, absolutely, 100.0% come out of left field. The more I reread this thread, the more I think that it would be a fairly short list, since there is so much foreshadowing packed into the books, especially in AGOT.

Here's a little one:

Arya saying of Joffrey "Someone should kill him!" in ACOK and Yoren telling her "Someone will, but it won't be me, nor you, neither." (He was right on all three counts: someone did kill Joffrey, and it wasn't Yoren, nor Arya.)

Littlefinger also had that great line:

"In the game of thrones, even the humblest pieces can have wills of their own. Sometimes they refuse to make the moves you've planned."

Littlefinger clearly thinks of Sansa/Alayne as not a player, but a piece. I dearly hope this is foreshadowing for her eventually turning the tables on him and refusing to make the moves Littlefinger has planned for her.

Any Tyrion/Sansa stuff is a drop in the bucket compared to the huge pile of Hound/Sansa stuff: "I wish the Hound were here," her thinking about him all the time, the fake kiss memory, Sansa's dream about the Hound in bed with her, mistaking Lothor Brune for the Hound when he saves her from Marillion, and so on and so on without turning this into a SanSan Greatest Hits list.

Going back to my point about non-foreshadowed events, the Tyrion/Sansa wedding is interesting, in that it's one of the few big events in the books to date that wasn't foreshadowed (unless you count Sansa praying for Tyrion in ACOK, which I don't). All the other big "twists" in ASOS--Jaime losing his hand, the Red Wedding, Purple Wedding, etc.--or even in the other books were heavily foreshadowed way in advance, if you look hard enough. So that kind of puzzles me. If the Tyrion/Sansa marriage is ultimately nothing more than a plot contrivance, then it would make sense that it wasn't foreshadowed, if it won't be very important in the final analysis except, say, to protect Sansa from getting married off to someone else too quickly.

...With all that said, there are some hints that Tyrion and Sansa could have if not a functioning marriage (since Sansa does express relief that her "mockery of a marriage" is over, and bitterly reflects that Tyrion telling her he could be good to her was "just another Lannister lie") at least a non-antagonistic relationship in the future. I don't know that I'd call these hints foreshadowing, necessarily, but here goes (going from ASOS on):

1. Sansa's reaction to the prospect of widowhood being her stomach fluttering.

2. Sansa thinking that she might never have to "share a bed" with Tyrion again and thinking "That was what she wanted, wasn't it?"

3. Sansa defending Tyrion to Littlefinger: "He did nothing."

4. Sansa almost telling Lysa Tully that Tyrion was kind to her and correcting her assumption that Tyrion was incapable of consummating the marriage. (What does she care if Lysa thinks Tyrion's impotent?)

5. Sansa/Alayne including Tyrion in her mental checklist of people who might theoretically be able to help her in AFFC (although she assumes at the time that he's been executed).

6. Tyrion deliberately pouring out the rest of the wine used to poison Joffrey

7. Tyrion refusing to incriminate Sansa and feeling bound by his marriage vow to protect her

8. Tyrion thinking of Sansa, the girl he thinks framed him for murder, as "the child bride he wed and lost," which is a fairly wistful way of describing her (he also thinks of her as "false," which is again pretty mild under the circumstances)

9. Tyrion comparing Penny, of whom he's quite fond, to Sansa ("He envied Penny all her pretty dreams. Sometimes [Penny] reminded him of Sansa Stark," or however it's phrased)

10. Tyrion's ambiguous reference to the people he misses: "Jaime. Shae. Tysha. My wife, I miss my wife, the wife I hardly knew" (Tysha makes more sense, since he spends a lot of time in ADWD thinking about Tysha, but in the same POV chapter where this quote's from we're reminded that he also married Sansa, and the punctuation's ambiguous)

11. Tyrion's lack of vengeful feelings towards Sansa (compared to his hate-on for Cersei)

In terms of actually foreshadowing anything beyond a non-antagonistic relationship between them, though, there's really not much of anything to go on. GRRM really downplays Tyrion and Sansa's relationship after the PW in favour of the Hound/Sansa and Tyrion/Tysha, there wasn't much foreshadowing before they got married, and I think everyone agrees that the marriage itself was a total trainwreck, so I am inclined to think that the marriage part of their relationship was a plot contrivance and nothing more. Doesn't mean they couldn't make a friendly alliance work, but that seems to be the best anyone could expect, assuming they ever meet again (and it's possible that they won't). It would also be a sign of Tyrion's character growth/redemption if, in the event he ever meets Sansa again, he agrees to an annulment and lets her go on her way with no hard feelings.

Some have speculated that Tyrion is in fact the "savage giant" Sansa has been prophesied to slay, but absent some big change in Tyrion's character development (like a psychotic break) or Sansa's, I can't see that happening at all. I'd have a different opinion if Tyrion had spent ADWD brooding on revenge against Sansa.

In terms of Tyrion/Sansa foreshadowing, though, I think a much more reliable indicator would be how the relationship is treated in the TV show, since D&D apparently know roughly how the story is supposed to shake out for all the major characters. If I were you, Pellaeon, I'd be watching Season 3 very, very closely. To be fair, though, Season 2 seems to have left San/San shippers as confused as ever as to whether their ship is endgame or whether it's effectively dead in the water, so who knows?

I plan to watch season 3 very close, but I won't rely on it because TV isn't book, but season 2 gave many hints on Sansa/Tyrion. And you forget the most important foreshadowing in your list, they are already married

[tze]

When Tyrion first comes upon the Lannister army in AGOT, he says:

In the dawn light, the army of Lord Tywin Lannister unfolded like an iron rose, thorns gleaming.

This foreshadows the later alliance between the Lannister-held Iron Throne and the rose-associated House Tyrell (and potentially, the Tyrells basically seizing control of the Iron Throne from the Lannisters).

Ser Alliser Thorne's nicknames for the Watch recruits seem to foreshadow those recruits' fates: Ser Alliser called Jon "Lord Snow", and Jon later becomes Lord Commander Snow. Ser Alliser called Grenn "Aurochs", and I already pointed out upthread how that nickname had relevance to Grenn during the fight with the Other. So does Ser Alliser's nickname for Sam---"Ser Piggy"---contain a hint for Sam's future? Will he somehow become (or perhaps impersonate) a knight? Or is this nickname a hint toward his association with the Faceless Man in the Citadel currently posing as Pate (given how the real Pate was named for the story of Spotted Pate the Pig Boy)?

[Newstar]

I plan to watch season 3 very close, but I won't rely on it because TV isn't book, but season 2 gave many hints on Sansa/Tyrion.

Without turning this into a TV show discussion, the only hints I saw were in two episodes written by the same person (2x04 and 2x06, Vanessa Taylor). Just because one non-showrunner writer on staff might ship it isn't indicative of anything, unless "Vanessa Taylor" is a pseudonym for GRRM. Ha!

And you forget the most important foreshadowing in your list, they are already married

Being married is really no foreshadowing of staying together, though, considering how many married couples married over the course of the series are kaput: Dany/Drogo, Littlefinger/Lysa, Joffrey/Margaery, Renly/Margaery, Dany/Hizdahr (effectively), Ramsay/"Arya," Robb/Jeyne, etc. Edmure/Roslin and Alys/Sigorn might have a shot, if they live long enough, but that's about it, and I have my doubts about Edmure and Roslin, what with Stoneheart on the warpath.

I just don't see any real hinting or foreshadowing for Tyrion/Sansa as a couple. I see hints that they could be allies or even, best case scenario, friends, but that's it. The only thing that looks remotely like foreshadowing is Sansa being unsure that she wanted to never share a bed with Tyrion again (and even that could be not wanting Tyrion to die, since she reflects how much she hated being married to him and never wants to be married again) and Tyrion's ambiguous reference to the wife he hardly knew (which could just as well be Tysha, and again, just because X misses Y is no indication that X will ever see Y again). Of course, there was no foreshadowing for Tyrion and Sansa's marriage, either, and yet they got married and are still married, so who knows?

....I always seem to end these speculation posts with "who knows?" because I've long since trying to predict anything with any certainty in this series. Pretty much anything's possible.

[Fire Eater]

"The Citadel is not what it was," complained the blond. [Lazy Leo speaking to Sam] They will take anything these days. Dusky dogs and Dornishmen, pig boys, cripples, cretins and now a black-clad whale. And here I thought leviathans were gray.

Behind the dais a kraken and a leviathan were locked in battle beneath the painted waves.

I think Euron will eventually attack Oldtown, and Sam will partake in the battle.

It may be Sam who kills Euron, possibly showing his improved skills at archery. Euron's nickname "Crow's Eye" may be hinting at his demise: having his eye taken out by a crow.

[Lady Flandrensis]

I have to think that the giant Sansa's prophecised to slay is UnGregor. I'd give triple bonus points if she does it saving either Sandor or Tyrion.

[Newstar]

I have to think that the giant Sansa's prophecised to slay is UnGregor. I'd give triple bonus points if she does it saving either Sandor or Tyrion.

Assuming the prophecy hasn't yet been fulfilled, FrankenGregor is likely to be the giant. I'd love to see Sansa take on FrankenGregor and slay him, but I have no idea on Earth how that could happen. Some have suggested that by "slay" the prophecy means she has somebody else--who can presumably fight--kill him, but the prophecy seems pretty specific.

From a plot perspective, if the "castle full of snow" is Winterfell, I don't see how FrankenGregor is going to make it all the way north. When winter comes, pretty much any castle could be a castle full of snow, though, so it needn't be Winterfell necessasrily.

One possibility is Sansa faces down FrankenGregor on her own behalf in a trial by combat in King's Landing, rather than using a champion. (I'm not sure why anyone would allow that, or why she wouldn't allow someone to fight for her as a champion,) Still don't see how she slays him, though, unless she gets an inside tip from a sympathetic party that gives her a hack she can use.

[chrisdaw]

I think Euron will eventually attack Oldtown, and Sam will partake in the battle.

It may be Sam who kills Euron, possibly showing his improved skills at archery. Euron's nickname "Crow's Eye" may be hinting at his demise: having his remaining eye taken out by a crow.

I thought about this one too I think, is it the painting behind Manderly's chair? My thinking was one way to interpret a leviathan is a sea serpent (dragon). I was supposing Victarion is the leviathan and Euron the kraken.