Lyanna Stark (The Hypocrite)?

[Sasha Steelsong]

Yep. At a worst case scenario, she would have demanded that Rhaegar takes her to Sunspear with the kids and later do his thing, rather than abandon the three of them with his mad father.

She has absolutely nothing to gain from a Rhaegar/Lyanna romance and risks everything- and, indeed, she did lose it all, because her husband couldn't control himself.

You presume either of them had the option to demand anything of Aerys. I never got the impression that either Rhaegar or Elia had a choice in her location.

[Failed to De-anon]

Ok, let's get one thing straight:

If Rhaegar really did kidnap and rape Lyanna, then he's basically a bad guy. About as bad as Aerys. He wouldn't be complex character, he'd just be a bad character. In contrast, if Lyanna ran off willingly with him, then theirs would be the story of two otherwise good people whose understandable desire to be happy together ends up sparking a devastating war. What exactly isn't morally complex about this? The elopement theory posits that well-intentioned deeds can lead to bad outcomes; the kidnapping theory posits that bad deeds lead to bad outcomes. Doesn't the latter strike you as more simplistic than the former? What exactly is more complex about a story in which both the king and his son, the main figures on the royalist side of the war, are basically evil?

Not really. The theory is based on two facts and two hypotheticals.

Fact 1: Elia knew about the prophecy.

Hypothetical 1: Elia agreed with Rhaegar about the prophecy's importance.

Fact 2: Dornishpeople are more sexually permissive than other Westerosi.

Hypothetical 2: Elia's Dornish values would've made her more amenable to a second marriage on Rhaegar's part.

That's it. Not ironclad, I admit, but neither is it as speculative as you would make it out to be. People have formulated theories on less evidence than this.

Elia knew about the prophesy. That doesn't mean that she believed it, nor did it mean that she believed that Rhaegar had to take action to fulfill it.

The Dornish being more sexually permissive (which what evidence is that based on anyway- the unmarried Oberyn, Ellaria, and Ashara?) does not equate to one woman being ok with her husband running off with someone else’s, much younger than her, fiancée nor does it mean that she would be ok with her husband taking a second wife who could have children who could become rival claimants to her children's legacy (even if Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love and Elia and Rhaegar weren't - which we do not know absolutely to be the case).

[The Storm Queen]

Another thing we have to establish:

How Elia Martell felt about the whole ordeal.

The way I see it, her feelings on the matter could have ranged from conscious agreement and approval, to utter disapprobation and horror. She may have been an agreeing collaborator, agreeing to the whole thing and actually helping Lyanna and Rhaegar plan it out. And before one objects that this is so utterly inhuman as to be improbable, keep in mind the unique situation:

a. Elia's marriage was arranged. It is noted that Rhaegar was fond but not in love with her. Should we really assume that Elia herself was desperately in love with her husband, since all wives must be? Or simply because he was so handsome/ perfect, that every woman he comes across must adore him? Isn't it possible that Elia, like Rheagar, was "fond", but not overwealmingly in love, and, thus, felt less possessive of Rheager than many of us would feel of our romantic mates? Wouldn't it be possible that she saw him as more her friend and an individual whom she was partnered with for dynastic reasons, rather than someone whose romantic attentions she wanted exclusively for herself?

b. Elia's had produced only one heir, but her health was ailing and wouldn't allow her to have a second child. As the queen, Elia is basically a brood mare. She must bring forth Rheagar's sons into the world; this is her main job. In the past, it was generally considered necessary for a woman to have two children-- an heir and a "spare." Elia has only born one male child, and can't bear another. The pressure on her must have been tremendous; and I imagine it was accompanied by a certain dissaproval by some that she couldn't "fulfill her duties." (Jon Connington reflects upon Elia's inability to bear more children, and sees her as "unworthy" of Rhaegar.)

In such a scenario, having Lyanna, a healthy young woman to bear more children for her husband, may have seemed like a relief to Lyanna. Of course, the issue of Elia's own children being threatened may have come up, however, it seems likely that Rhaegar would have promised Elia that her firstborn child would get the preference. Furthermore, most people familiar with Lyanna could probably guess that she was good natured, and not interested in murdering/ usurping Elia's children from their rightful place on the throne.

Overall, Lyanna's desire to marry a man capable of fidelity was utterly normal. However, was her feeling discomfort with the prospect of Robert cheating on her, then running away with another woman's husband, evidence of hypocrisy on her part?

Again, I'd say that the answer depends upon Elia's attitude towards Rheagar running off with (and presumably making a second marriage to) Lyanna. Though it would seem improbable, given the unusual scenario, I'd actually say that Elia being generally approving-- even, heck, a knowing collaborator in the whole thing-- does not seem impossible. GRRM does love to subvert expectations, and every single POV we've heard of thus far generally seems to overlook Elia, dismiss her as insignificant, or view her as a woman who is weak/ unworthy/ unable to hold onto her man.

It would be if amusing if GRRM overturned these expectations by making Elia someone who not only approved of, but was a participant in Rhaegar and Lyanna's choice to run off together.

Remember the location of the tower of joy-- the Dornish mountains. And who'd know Dorne better than Elia? I've always suspected that she had a hand in providing Rhaegar and her new "sister wife" a place to run off to and hide out in.

I think this is possible, yet I also see enough elements of conflict even if Elia generally was on board with a second wife:

1) Having a second wife and having Lyanna Stark as a second wife are two completly different things in terms of politics. By kidnapping or eloping with Lyanna, Rhaegar offends the Starks, the Baratheons and by extension even the Tullys and Arryns. Even if we saw it playing out in the worst case version it was still a gamble to begin with! Rhaegar does not seem to be a overly rational guy but I cannot see Elia making the same mistake and overlooking the implications of taking the daughter of a great house.

2) Accepting the existence of a second wife/lover is one thing and I can see Elia consenting to a discreet union Dornish style. But unfortunately Rhaegar did not seem to be one for subtleness. Him crowning Lyanna QoLaB was a signal for the world that he vastly prefered Lyanna over Elia. Emotionally Elia might have been fine or impassive with that but she surely was aware what this act (or similar acts in the future) would mean for her political standing (and the power of her children by extension)

[Dragonfish]

Elia knew about the prophesy. That doesn't mean that she believed it, nor did it mean that she believed that Rhaegar had to take action to fulfill it.

Yes, I know. That's why I said it was a hypothetical.

The Dornish being more sexually permissive (which what evidence is that based on anyway- the unmarried Oberyn, Ellaria, and Ashara?) does not equate to one woman being ok with her husband running off with someone else’s, much younger than her, fiancée nor does it mean that she would be ok with her husband taking a second wife who could have children who could become rival claimants to her children's legacy (even if Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love and Elia and Rhaegar weren't).

Yes, I know. That's why I said it was a hypothetical.

The Dornish being more sexually permissive (which what evidence is that based on anyway- the unmarried Oberyn, Ellaria, and Ashara?)

It's basically stated outright in the books that they're more sexually licentious and permissive.

[Nausicaä]

<space>

Great post! :agree:

Again, I'd say that the answer depends upon Elia's attitude towards Rheagar running off with (and presumably making a second marriage to) Lyanna. Though it would seem improbable, given the unusual scenario, I'd actually say that Elia being generally approving-- even, heck, a knowing collaborator in the whole thing-- does not seem impossible. GRRM does love to subvert expectations, and every single POV we've heard of thus far generally seems to overlook Elia, dismiss her as insignificant, or view her as a woman who is weak/ unworthy/ unable to hold onto her man.

It would be if amusing if GRRM overturned these expectations by making Elia someone who not only approved of, but was a participant in Rhaegar and Lyanna's choice to run off together.

I agree that Elia may have been more than fine with the whole situation and even a participant, but I think there's also a good chance that she wasn't and if that's true, it would be nice if she was portrayed as disapproving of it, as someone who has been wronged and resented that, but remained a positive figure despite it. I think the situation you described is actually the default assumption for a lot of people. When fans bring up "but we don't know how Elia felt about it" in discussions of Rhaegar's action and character, I get the feeling that what they mean is most often "she may have been understanding, so there's nothing wrong with Rhaegar's actions" and it's not as often considered that Elia, despite her Dornish background, may have been against it or even vehemently opposed it and that she may have been seriously hurt by the way Rhaegar treated her, like his crowning of Lyanna as his queen of love and beauty. She didn't have to be in love with her husband for that, nor did she have to be weak or petty. Instead of being perfectly accepting and even helping her husband get in bed with a young hottie, whom she accepts as a sister-wife right away, she could be strong, but prideful and dislike the way she was treated, while remaining just as good-natured. IMO, it would be interesting if she disliked the situation, but still chose to help Rhaegar and Lyanna find a safe space where they could stay.

[Failed to De-anon]

It's basically stated outright in the books that they're more sexually licentious and permissive.

Yes, but, that is stated by those who are not the Dornish. But, of the Dornish evidence we have seen, the only people who are sexually permissive are those that were unmarried. True Ellaria Sand was an illegitimate child, there were also high-born bastards in the rest of Westeros too. Oberyn might be bi and one of the Sand Snakes might have got into bed with a set of female twins. That is not the same thing as a married woman being ok with her husband getting a second wife or a lover. Rhaegar by passing over Elia and crowning Lyanna Queen of Love and Beauty, Rhaegar showed, publically, favor to someone who wasn't his wife, and then he ran off with Lyanna. No one in Dorne was doing that.

[Dragonfish]

Yes, but, that is stated by those who are not the Dornish.

So? Just because they're not Dornish doesn't mean they can't accurately state Dornish customs.

But, of the Dornish evidence we have seen, the only people who are sexually permissive are those that were unmarried.

Untrue. The Dornish take paramours, even the married ones.

[Failed to De-anon]

So? Just because they're not Dornish doesn't mean they can't accurately state Dornish customs.

Just because it is said does not make it true. I will admit that Dornish are just more open about it. That does not make them, as a people, more promiscuous or that all of them are.

Untrue. The Dornish take paramours, even the married ones.

Taking a paramour is one thing, people in the rest of Westeros have taken lovers as well. Anyway that really wasn't my main point. The difference with Rhaegar and Lyanna is that he showed favor to her publically, over his wife, and then ran away with the other woman. Even if Elia had been ok with Rhaegar and Lyanna, it doesn't mean that simply because she was Dornish that she would be ok with that.

What's worse is that if Rhaegar and Lyanna marry and conceive children, those children could pose a threat to the legacy that (the Dornish and thus not exactly considered Westerosi) Elia and Rhaegar's children would have. That would also figure into the thoughts of others; if not Elia, then others in Westeros (Rickard with his Southron ambitions, for example). Even if Elia was ok with Rhaegar and Lyanna being in love, that's still pretty dangerous.

[Inara]

I agree with the above poster. There is a huge difference between a Dornish paramour and a legally wedded spouse.

Elia might have been ok with Rhaegar taking a paramour. The Dornish do seem more practical when it comes to love and marriage, and allowing both men and women to take paramours still allows a wedded couple to find happiness.

BUT two things - first, just because paramours were accepted in Dorne doesn't mean they were acceptable for the rest of Westeros. In fact, it's made pretty clear that Dornish culture is looked down upon by people north of the Red Mountains. Second, as the future queen of Westeros, Elia would never have been able to take a paramour. She had to be faithful to Rhaegar no matter what, otherwise people would question the legitimacy of her children. This wouldn't have been the case had she been married to someone in Dorne, where it would have been socially acceptable for her to take a paramour, freeing her husband to do the same. Given what we know about the Dornish, I don't see why Elia would be ok with Rhaegar getting to have a piece on the side while she couldn't. As a man, he could (and did) so anyway, but that doesn't mean she supported it, not when the situation was unfair for her. Unless she was sleeping with Arthur Dayne, and Rhaegar was fine with it (but that opens another can of worms).

Secondly, even if Elia was so nice that she let Rhaegar find happiness even though she herself couldn't (what a selfless and non-Dornish thing to do), it's one thing to accept her husband having a paramour (mistress). Lyanna would have no official standing, and her children would not be in line for the throne unless Rhaegar chose to legitimize them, and even then, they would come after his trueborn children.

But by making Lyanna a second wife, one that he publicly favored over her (as opposed to discreetly), it throws Elia's (and Aegon's) place in the succession in doubt. Lyanna could possibly rise above Elia in influence, and it's not unfeasible to imagine Rhaegar sending Elia back to Dorne (though he'd keep the kids, of course). And even then, Elia still couldn't cheat on Rhaegar, not without risking Aegon's succession.

So if Rhaegar married Lyanna, I don't see why Elia would be ok with that. He could do whatever he wanted, and he wasn't required to get Elia's permission to do anything, but there is no reason for Elia to support having a second wife in the picture. Mistress, fine. But not a woman who has legal standing and could even overtake Elia's own position.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Another thing we have to establish:

How Elia Martell felt about the whole ordeal.

The way I see it, her feelings on the matter could have ranged from conscious agreement and approval, to utter disapprobation and horror. She may have been an agreeing collaborator, agreeing to the whole thing and actually helping Lyanna and Rhaegar plan it out. And before one objects that this is so utterly inhuman as to be improbable, keep in mind the unique situation:

a. Elia's marriage was arranged. It is noted that Rhaegar was fond but not in love with her. Should we really assume that Elia herself was desperately in love with her husband, since all wives must be? Or simply because he was so handsome/ perfect, that every woman he comes across must adore him? Isn't it possible that Elia, like Rheagar, was "fond", but not overwealmingly in love, and, thus, felt less possessive of Rheager than many of us would feel of our romantic mates? Wouldn't it be possible that she saw him as more her friend and an individual whom she was partnered with for dynastic reasons, rather than someone whose romantic attentions she wanted exclusively for herself?

b. Elia's had produced only one heir, but her health was ailing and wouldn't allow her to have a second child. As the queen, Elia is basically a brood mare. She must bring forth Rheagar's sons into the world; this is her main job. In the past, it was generally considered necessary for a woman to have two children-- an heir and a "spare." Elia has only born one male child, and can't bear another. The pressure on her must have been tremendous; and I imagine it was accompanied by a certain dissaproval by some that she couldn't "fulfill her duties." (Jon Connington reflects upon Elia's inability to bear more children, and sees her as "unworthy" of Rhaegar.)

In such a scenario, having Lyanna, a healthy young woman to bear more children for her husband, may have seemed like a relief to Lyanna. Of course, the issue of Elia's own children being threatened may have come up, however, it seems likely that Rhaegar would have promised Elia that her firstborn child would get the preference. Furthermore, most people familiar with Lyanna could probably guess that she was good natured, and not interested in murdering/ usurping Elia's children from their rightful place on the throne.

Overall, Lyanna's desire to marry a man capable of fidelity was utterly normal. However, was her feeling discomfort with the prospect of Robert cheating on her, then running away with another woman's husband, evidence of hypocrisy on her part?

Again, I'd say that the answer depends upon Elia's attitude towards Rheagar running off with (and presumably making a second marriage to) Lyanna. Though it would seem improbable, given the unusual scenario, I'd actually say that Elia being generally approving-- even, heck, a knowing collaborator in the whole thing-- does not seem impossible. GRRM does love to subvert expectations, and every single POV we've heard of thus far generally seems to overlook Elia, dismiss her as insignificant, or view her as a woman who is weak/ unworthy/ unable to hold onto her man.

It would be if amusing if GRRM overturned these expectations by making Elia someone who not only approved of, but was a participant in Rhaegar and Lyanna's choice to run off together.

Remember the location of the tower of joy-- the Dornish mountains. And who'd know Dorne better than Elia? I've always suspected that she had a hand in providing Rhaegar and her new "sister wife" a place to run off to and hide out in.

One of those rare moments where i actually agree with QCI. *extreme face*

Its very possible Elia was down with it. From what we know of the Dornish, they are a bit different in terms of relationships. Having paramours, being bisexual, and just being a bit oddly randy in such fashion and sharing beds is a common practice. Why would GRRM toss that in in the first place? Fanservice only? Doubt it. Also since Targaryens have practiced polygamy for centuries, its not too far of a stretch. The Dornish are pretty aware of the Targaryen polygamist deal anyway. Dorne had been marrying into the Targs for a while now. A lot of the Targ kings had more than one wife. (And Rhaegar was the heir...)

Someone upthread did point out something though. While Elia may have very well been down with Rhaegar and Lyanna, the Starks would have a shit fit. The prospect would likely offend them greatly. Its probably why they chose to elope.

And i staunchly believe Lyanna went off with Rhaegar willingly.

Is she a hypocrite for doing that? I dont think so.

[Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost]

There's also the possiblity that Rhaegar and Elia had a somewhat open relationship. The Dornish seem to be open-minded about these things and the Targs have a history of polygamy.

if Lyanna was aware of this she may have been more apt to follow him willingly

[Winterfell is Burning]

You presume either of them had the option to demand anything of Aerys. I never got the impression that either Rhaegar or Elia had a choice in her location.

Which only adds to my point that it's absurd to suggest Elia accepted Rhaegar abandoning her and the children to run off with Lyanna. She's effectively a prisioner and her husband doesn't do anything about the situation but ran off with a lover.

Untrue. The Dornish take paramours, even the married ones.

Many Dornish men do, although many people from the rest of Westeros do it as well, and not all Dornish lords do (Doran, for one). But we see absolutely no one that marries their paramour and legitimizes her children.

[Florina Laufeyson]

But the Dornish arent polygamists either. Targaryens were. Hmmm.

[The Other Others]

Has anyone even thought if Arthur Dayne knew as he was one of rhaegars close friends so could he have helped with the ToJ and possibily helped smooth things over with elia about Lyanna and Rhaegar. But what people forget Is Lyanna and Rhaegar eloping was a secondary reason for Roberts rebellion,the main one was Aerys wanting Robert and Neds heads on spikes. But why? Could Aerys have known about Rhaegar and Lyanna,arranged For ned(her brother) and Robert(her bethroed) to die,and assuming in his paranoia that Rickard and/or Brandon to come to kl and have whoever came killed,leaving Rhaegar and Lyanna to their own choices.

[Sasha Steelsong]

Which only adds to my point that it's absurd to suggest Elia accepted Rhaegar abandoning her and the children to run off with Lyanna. She's effectively a prisioner and her husband doesn't do anything about the situation but ran off with a lover.

Again you're presuming that Rhaegar could have done anything about the situation, if Aerys wants to hold her there doesn't seem to be anything that Rhaegar can do even if he's in KL without it being treason.

You're also presuming that Rhaegar was intimately aware of all the details of what was going on in KL while he was in seclusion, which given the communication abilities seems a bit of a stretch. I think any news reaching the TOJ was significantly time delayed.

You're also presuming that Elia's captivity was some sort of enabler to Rhaegar leaving, that it somehow allowed him the freedom to leave his wife, when it is entirely possible that Elia wasn't actually a prisoner until Rhaegar couldn't be found, thus when Rhaegar left her she wasn't in peril.

Frankly I think you are viewing Elia and Rhaegar's marriage though a very modern lense that doesn't actually work well with dynastic marriages (betrayal, abandonment, etc). There is no evidence one way or another about how Elia felt (it is possible she was okay with it and equally possible that she wasn't), but the fact that Rhaegar was in hiding in Dorne does raise questions of why/how there if she was ardently opposed to his actions.

[Dragonfish]

Just because it is said does not make it true. I will admit that Dornish are just more open about it. That does not make them, as a people, more promiscuous or that all of them are.

It's not about them being promiscuous, it's about them being more accepting of their spouses looking elsewhere for mates. I'll admit that this doesn't prove that Elia would be ok with Rhaegar taking another wife, but then again, I never claimed there was proof for that. My only point is that it's not much of a stretch to suppose that Elia could have been ok with the situation, given her culture's attitudes toward sex.

Which only adds to my point that it's absurd to suggest Elia accepted Rhaegar abandoning her and the children to run off with Lyanna.

Give me a break. Rhaegar did not abandon his family. He died defending them.

Many Dornish men do, although many people from the rest of Westeros do it as well

No, the status of paramours is above that of a mistress, but below that of a wife/husband. There's no real equivalent for it in the rest of Westeros.

[Florina Laufeyson]

:idea: IDEA!!

Maybe Elia somehow gave Ned the message to where Lyanna was after all? The timeline is still a bit fuzzy so it may not work...

But you never know.....

[Dragonfish]

:idea: IDEA!!

Maybe Elia somehow gave Ned the message to where Lyanna was after all? The timeline is still a bit fuzzy so it may not work...

But you never know.....

When would she have done this? She died during the Sack.

[dtones520]

What bothers me most about Lyanna is that after knowing that her father and brother were killed trying to get her back, she did nothing. She did nothing knowing that the realm went to war, basically, because of her and Rhaegar. This war could have also got Ned killed as well. So she basically got or could have gotten her entire family killed because of her romance, assuming she wasn't kidnapped. I guess I'm assuming she did know all of this, maybe she didn't.

Why couldn't she just say to her father that she was going to be Rhaegars paramour/second wife and that was that? It would have saved the realm a lot of bloodshed, especially because it sounds like Rhaegar was going to try and do something about his father after the war.

[Dragonfish]

What bothers me most about Lyanna is that after knowing that her father and brother were killed trying to get her back, she did nothing.

You're assuming that she knew what was going on in King's Landing.

She did nothing knowing that the realm went to war, basically, because of her and Rhaegar.

The realm went to war because of what Aerys did, and there was basically nothing she could do to stop it once it began.

Why couldn't she just say to her father that she was going to be Rhaegars paramour/second wife and that was that?

How do you know she didn't? We don't know what Rickard knew or didn't know regarding Lyanna and Rhaegar's relationship. It was Brandon's reaction that drew Aerys' ire, not Rickard's.