Ros question spoilers from books

[Ty3009]

:agree:

The whole "Fake Arya" plotline would be far too difficult and cheesy to dramatize onscreen. It's a much better idea to use an established character like Talisa to call back both Theon and the Bolton's betrayal of the Starks.

[Danelle]

:agree:

The whole "Fake Arya" plotline would be far too difficult and cheesy to dramatize onscreen. It's a much better idea to use an established character like Talisa to call back both Theon and the Bolton's betrayal of the Starks.

Perhaps.

I think, I am not certain, that Jeyne was in Winterfell in the first episode and now, according to the timeline she must be in Dreadfort, I suppose. In the books though, Jeyne was given to LF, who owned brothels and tells Ramsay that she is trained...

[The Lord's Kiss]

Perhaps.

I think, I am not certain, that Jeyne was in Winterfell in the first episode and now, according to the timeline she must be in Dreadfort, I suppose. In the books though, Jeyne was given to LF, who owned brothels and tells Ramsay that she is trained...

Jeyne was in Winterfell, she's sitting next to Sansa when Arya flicks some mashed potatoes into her face. I don't know why they didn't give her any lines or screentime at all other than that one little scene, especially considering how important the Fake Arya storyline becomes.

Am I the only person who thought the Fake Arya story was one of the best parts of A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons? It's so gut-wrenching and heart-breaking and it finally offers Theon a chance at some small redemption. The showrunners managed to pull of the Battle of Blackwater, I think they can manage to make this storyline work, especially considering how important it is to establishing the Bolton's powerbase in Winterfell.

[King Tommen]

Jeyne was in Winterfell, she's sitting next to Sansa when Arya flicks some mashed potatoes into her face. I don't know why they didn't give her any lines or screentime at all other than that one little scene, especially considering how important the Fake Arya storyline becomes.

Am I the only person who thought the Fake Arya story was one of the best parts of A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons? It's so gut-wrenching and heart-breaking and it finally offers Theon a chance at some small redemption. The showrunners managed to pull of the Battle of Blackwater, I think they can manage to make this storyline work, especially considering how important it is to establishing the Bolton's powerbase in Winterfell.

Again, that could have been anyone sitting beside Sansa in that scene and that girl was never established as being alongside Sansa when she went to King's Landing which would be the most important element in the "fake Arya" storyline. It's one of many Winterfell extras, no more no less. As for what has happened on the show to all of those nameless Winterfell residents, I think the show has intimated that they're all dead and burnt in the Sack as opposed to prisoners at the Dreadfort. If I was a viewer, the conclusion that I'd be drawing this season was that Theon was the only one from there still alive unless they specifically stated otherwise.

I agree that the Fake Arya story was great but not because there was an imposter girl and that they were attempting to pass her off as Arya. It was great because we got to see Theon start his redemption arc in trying to save an innocent girl who was in the midst of being taken into Ramsay's web, the consequences of which Theon was only too familiar.

That's why I think it's important to still retain that element of the story but have the "in disguise" stuff removed. I also like the idea of having this innocent girl be someone the audience already knows and even more powerful if it is someone who we know has an independent spirit that is being broken by Ramsay's psychological machinations. As written, Jeyne Poole (like Jeyne Westerling) is a cipher. A character who serves the plot only who we have not been given any background on or who has any significant history with anyone she interacts with. I think substituting Talisa into this spot raises the stakes for the audience because we know what she's all about and what she's gone through. I also like that they could make the connection to Theon who has obvious guilty feelings about everything he has done to Robb and saving his "brother's" first love could be a small way to set things right. I think that's a better connection than the one that exists between him and Jeyne Poole who by all accounts in the book was someone he knew at Winterfell but had little to do with.

[Danelle]

Again, that could have been anyone sitting beside Sansa in that scene and that girl was never established as being alongside Sansa when she went to King's Landing which would be the most important element in the "fake Arya" storyline. It's one of many Winterfell extras, no more no less. As for what has happened on the show to all of those nameless Winterfell residents, I think the show has intimated that they're all dead and burnt in the Sack as opposed to prisoners at the Dreadfort. If I was a viewer, the conclusion that I'd be drawing this season was that Theon was the only one from there still alive unless they specifically stated otherwise.

I agree that the Fake Arya story was great but not because there was an imposter girl and that they were attempting to pass her off as Arya. It was great because we got to see Theon start his redemption arc in trying to save an innocent girl who was in the midst of being taken into Ramsay's web, the consequences of which Theon was only too familiar.

That's why I think it's important to still retain that element of the story but have the "in disguise" stuff removed. I also like the idea of having this innocent girl be someone the audience already knows and even more powerful if it is someone who we know has an independent spirit that is being broken by Ramsay's psychological machinations. As written, Jeyne Poole (like Jeyne Westerling) is a cipher. A character who serves the plot only who we have not been given any background on or who has any significant history with anyone she interacts with. I think substituting Talisa into this spot raises the stakes for the audience because we know what she's all about and what she's gone through. I also like that they could make the connection to Theon who has obvious guilty feelings about everything he has done to Robb and saving his "brother's" first love could be a small way to set things right. I think that's a better connection than the one that exists between him and Jeyne Poole who by all accounts in the book was someone he knew at Winterfell but had little to do with.

Well, apparently Jeyne was in Winterfell, according to this.

The fake Arya storyline was so sad and tragic and it is important for Reek to be in the company of someone who knew him before he learnt his name. I don't know what changes are they planning to do in the forthcoming seasons but Ramsay has to torture Theon, turn him to Reek and then marry a woman from Winterfell, someone from Theon's past. Thebest part about Jeyne was that there was a mystery regarding her fate after she was separated from Sansa. Possibly LF trained her as a prostitute. I do think that he tried to learn everything about Sansa from Jeyne. What made Jeyne's story so tragic was that she was just an innocent little girl, pretty but not highborn. She wanted to marry lord Beric but Sansa knew that he would never marry a steward's daughter. But it is too late to reintroduce her character now. Ros could replace her, but why give Ramsay a whore? Unless Varys wants a spy in the North. Talisa could also replace another Jeyne, but they have to convince us that she has no other way than to be given to Ramsay. Poor Jeyne was an orphan, her dad killed, her liege lord executed as a traitor, her guardian had an unhealthy obsession with her best friend. Talisa is stronger, older and more mature and more difficult to submit to Ramsay.

[Gandalf the Grey]

Ros is just an excuse to introduce viewers to Theon and Littlefinger, while showing some gratuitous boobies. I like Ros.

[Lannister Hamster]

Ros is just an excuse to introduce viewers to Theon and Littlefinger, while showing some gratuitous boobies. I like Ros.

I like Ros and I'm intrigued where this partnership with Varys goes this season.

With the whole fake Arya thing - let's get much nearer there first and see what pieces are in play. We've probably got 3 years until we get to that plot anyway.

[MyLittleDirewolf]

Maybe it's my dislike of Talisa that's driving my no no no don't use her for the Fake Arya plot. There's already enough Talisa will need to do being Jeyne W, I don't see how they could also utilize her as the Fake Arya. Unless they are going to have her not be at Riverrun with Blackfish... IDK, that seems like a lot of unnecessary plot changing.

I'll give you that Jeyne Poole was very extremely briefly introduced. I was just rewatching S1 so that's why I remembered her. Another aspect of the Fake Arya plot was it also highlighted was a user Littlefinger is. He tells Sansa he's going to help her friend. Nope, he uses her and sends an innocent girl to a brothel, then off to be married to a known rapist and torturer. The show needs to include that LF was behind the Fake Arya plot somehow. I do see the problem of Arya being too young for marriage for the show, maybe they'll make it Fake Sansa?

[Danelle]

Maybe it's my dislike of Talisa that's driving my no no no don't use her for the Fake Arya plot. There's already enough Talisa will need to do being Jeyne W, I don't see how they could also utilize her as the Fake Arya. Unless they are going to have her not be at Riverrun with Blackfish... IDK, that seems like a lot of unnecessary plot changing.

I'll give you that Jeyne Poole was very extremely briefly introduced. I was just rewatching S1 so that's why I remembered her. Another aspect of the Fake Arya plot was it also highlighted was a user Littlefinger is. He tells Sansa he's going to help her friend. Nope, he uses her and sends an innocent girl to a brothel, then off to be married to a known rapist and torturer. The show needs to include that LF was behind the Fake Arya plot somehow. I do see the problem of Arya being too young for marriage for the show, maybe they'll make it Fake Sansa?

Well, if there is fake Sansa then there would be no Sansa Lannister. Arya was perfect for Lannisters because she was a Stark and not married. Sansa is to marry Tyrion. There is also the possibility of not having Ramsay getting married....

[MyLittleDirewolf]

Well, if there is fake Sansa then there would be no Sansa Lannister. Arya was perfect for Lannisters because she was a Stark and not married. Sansa is to marry Tyrion. There is also the possibility of not having Ramsay getting married....

Oops... yeah forgot about Sansa being married to Tyrion. Wonder how that's going to play out on the show?

Not sure how they can entirely skip over the Fake Arya plotline and still have other stuff make sense.

[Ty3009]

Oops... yeah forgot about Sansa being married to Tyrion. Wonder how that's going to play out on the show?

Not sure how they can entirely skip over the Fake Arya plotline and still have other stuff make sense.

What has the Fake Arya plot really added to the story at this point? The only reason it exists is to legitimize the Bolton claim to the North. The same thing could be accomplished by having Talisa, Robb's widow, shipped North and married to Ramsay. This would put an established character into play in Theon's arc. I think that Talisa will be at the RW to witness the atrocity and kept as a hostage. It just seems a lot more elegant than establishing an entirely new character, Jeyne Poole, and leading the audience to believe that she could pass as a fake Ayra. I admit that it takes that away from LF's scheming but I think he's plenty schemey already.

[ServantOnIce]

I keep worrying that HBO will somehow replace Jeyne Poole with Ros.

I hope not, . ... my goodness . .

[OnionLord]

On the subject of Talisa as Jeyne Poole, has anyone considered how it might affect Jon's arc? Being led to believe that Ramsay is abusing his little sister is a big part of his motivation for marching south, he isn't going to give two shits about Talisa. Also, why should the mountain clans join up with Stannis if not to rescue Ned's little girl? Besides all that it's a terrible idea anyway, Talisa has fuck all claim to Winterfell and it's just going to come across as a really contrived way to shoehorn a character nobody likes back into the story.

Fake Arya can be any northern girl who travelled south from Winterfell, they don't need to establish her relationship with Sansa or anything like that. Just not Talisa (or Ros), please.

[King Tommen]

The argument that Talisa is a character "that no one cares about" is a fairly contained one. If you stray out of your "OMG, that's not Jeyne Westerling from the books, I hate it!!" cocoon that the handful of extremist posters on this board contain, she's actually a fairly well liked character from the general show audience. She's about to become a whole lot more sympathetic through the course of the following season.

You don't just take a character you've spent that much time with and lock her away with no purpose for the next 4-5 seasons.

There are lots of ways that Ramsay can goad Jon into leaving the Wall, I'm sure a more than capable story can be constructed at that time.

I also don't understand why Talisa wouldn't have some kind of claim on Winterfell at that time. She's the wife of the King in the North and Lord of Winterfell. Her husband's dead, the male brothers are also presumed dead, the sisters are lost and presumed dead (Arya) or lost and an accused kingslayer (Sansa). Who else does the claim revert to if not her?

This is of course just my theory and there's a lot of time between now and when that decision would have to be made but I think that it makes an awful lot of sense for a number of reasons. If this season, Talisa comes with Robb to the RW and is captured there, then I think the odds of this being the case rise dramatically. I realize that there are other options and that not everyone would buy this being their choice but I find that most of the objections have more to do with "I hate Talisa because she wasn't in the books!" than anything based in logic.

[Danelle]

On the subject of Talisa as Jeyne Poole, has anyone considered how it might affect Jon's arc? Being led to believe that Ramsay is abusing his little sister is a big part of his motivation for marching south, he isn't going to give two shits about Talisa. Also, why should the mountain clans join up with Stannis if not to rescue Ned's little girl? Besides all that it's a terrible idea anyway, Talisa has fuck all claim to Winterfell and it's just going to come across as a really contrived way to shoehorn a character nobody likes back into the story.

Fake Arya can be any northern girl who travelled south from Winterfell, they don't need to establish her relationship with Sansa or anything like that. Just not Talisa (or Ros), please.

Good point. As far as Jon is concerned, Sansa is a Lannister and Arya is a Lannister prisoner about to be given to Ramsay, of all people. And she is the only Stark that Jon is constantly thinking about. Jon at GOT had contemplated breaking his vows but it wasn't until Mance failed and Ramsay send him the letter that Jon actually decided to abandon everything to save his little sister. Talisa, is, was Robb's queen and definately has a claim to the North but still remains a stranger to Jon. She is not even from Westeros...I can see Jon sending Mance to save Talisa but going there by himself? For a woman he has not even met? Just like with Theon and Kyra, Ramsay needs to have control of a woman that Jon knows and cares for. Even if Jon saves Arya only to discover that she was Jeyne Poole he would still be angry to Ramsay. He grew up with Jeyne. Would Jon be able to recognise Talisa?

[OnionLord]

The argument that Talisa is a character "that no one cares about" is a fairly contained one. If you stray out of your "OMG, that's not Jeyne Westerling from the books, I hate it!!" cocoon that the handful of extremist posters on this board contain, she's actually a fairly well liked character from the general show audience. She's about to become a whole lot more sympathetic through the course of the following season.

Hmm I was under the impression that she wasn't popular but maybe I just read too many forums! Popular or not though I still think it's a bad idea.

You don't just take a character you've spent that much time with and lock her away with no purpose for the next 4-5 seasons.

Why not? She's served her purpose in her story, it would be hard to bring her back without it seeming contrived. Characters come and go in TV series all the time.

I also don't understand why Talisa wouldn't have some kind of claim on Winterfell at that time. She's the wife of the King in the North and Lord of Winterfell. Her husband's dead, the male brothers are also presumed dead, the sisters are lost and presumed dead (Arya) or lost and an accused kingslayer (Sansa). Who else does the claim revert to if not her?

I don't think that's how inheritance works, not in medieval times anyway. Yeah she married Robb and her son or daughter would have a claim if she gets pregnant, but she herself has no Stark blood. She's also not even from the North, or Westerosi, which weakens her claim considerably. She has about as much claim to Winterfell if all the Starks are dead as Tysha does to Casterly Rock if all the Lannisters die. If the Starks are all dead then Winterfell would probably pass to one of those distant relatives in the Vale that Cat talks about in ASOS. Yeah I know Ramsay claimed the Hornwood by marrying Lady Hornwood, but nobody takes his claim seriously because even if she was Lady of Hornwood in her own right (but she wasn't), just marrying her then forgetting about her isn't enough to make Ramsay Lord in *his* own right. That's a Ramsay-level political move, not something Roose or Tywin would do.

Sorry, I've been playing a lot of Crusader Kings recently, so I understand more about medieval inheritance than any reasonable person probably should...

This is of course just my theory and there's a lot of time between now and when that decision would have to be made but I think that it makes an awful lot of sense for a number of reasons. If this season, Talisa comes with Robb to the RW and is captured there, then I think the odds of this being the case rise dramatically. I realize that there are other options and that not everyone would buy this being their choice but I find that most of the objections have more to do with "I hate Talisa because she wasn't in the books!" than anything based in logic.

Well, personally I don't like Talisa because her 'sassy foreign nurse' character doesn't really fit into the world of Westeros and I don't buy her love story with Robb, but let's not start this debate. :P I think there are plenty of reasons apart from disliking Talisa that replacing Fake Arya with her is a bad idea, not least of which is the fact that I'm pretty sure she has no actual claim worth marrying her for.

[lojzelote]

On the subject of Talisa as Jeyne Poole, has anyone considered how it might affect Jon's arc? Being led to believe that Ramsay is abusing his little sister is a big part of his motivation for marching south, he isn't going to give two shits about Talisa. Also, why should the mountain clans join up with Stannis if not to rescue Ned's little girl? Besides all that it's a terrible idea anyway, Talisa has fuck all claim to Winterfell and it's just going to come across as a really contrived way to shoehorn a character nobody likes back into the story.

Fake Arya can be any northern girl who travelled south from Winterfell, they don't need to establish her relationship with Sansa or anything like that. Just not Talisa (or Ros), please.

That's simple - they will probably (this time intentionally) misread his character in some terrible again. Just look at the abomination they made his arc in S2. Look what they did to Catelyn' and Robb' motivation regarding releasing Jaime and marrying 'Jeyne'. D+D also allegedly said that Jon has always lacked a father figure. They obviously don't remember that guy they killed off in Baelor anymore. :bang:

[SimonSez]

I wonder if the idea is that Bailish will learn of Ros's betrayal (her in cahoots with Varys) and send her north, fully knowing he's sending her to a man who likes "transforming" girls.

[Danelle]

I wonder if the idea is that Bailish will learn of Ros's betrayal (her in cahoots with Varys) and send her north, fully knowing he's sending her to a man who likes "transforming" girls.

That good work. In the books, after Tyrion escapes Varys is missing. Presumably he is hiding somewhere in the Red Keep. So he would abandon Ros and without him ot Tyrion she would have no one to turn to.

[epilepticfridgeboy]

Psh. Ros will obviously replace Taena when they film AFFC, and help Cersei see the error of her ways and redeem herself through a tender loving relationship.

I think this will make the betrayal all the more harrowing when Ros is revealed to be the "younger and more beautiful" Queen prophesied by Maggy.