Tormund's police and other miscarriers of justice thread.

[Sturn]

Back to the current topic. SRO's are known to sometimes do stupid things. Schools also sometimes try to get cops to do stupid things. When I was a patrolman, I was often called to schools for a problem, to find out it was a teenager cursing in a classroom, not obeying teachers, etc. I would ask them why the police were called. I would tell them to use their own rules for discipline, kick him out, whatever, only call me if a crime was being committed.

That being said, SRO's are still needed for the actual crimes going on inside some schools as noted by some posters above. I don't understand why some cops/SRO's/school administrators don't understand the line between crimes (need a cop) and discipline. Eta: Me thinks some of the problem is we've lost discipline in many schools, so teachers are turning to cops to correct the problem, which is the wrong solution.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

Good post Sturn.

What's going on as described in the article is a problem that goes far beyond the police themselves. It actually shakes the very foundations of governance. Police are writing these tickets - which I remind you are not like traffic tickets, but are actual criminal charges - based on school rules. It elevates school staff beyond the elected legislature and gives them the ability to make up crimes without a mandate from the people. Disrupting class appears nowhere within the Texas criminal code, yet due to collusion between police and schools you are still being held criminally liable. It has established schools as a zone free of the rule of law, and turned them into a capricious dictatorship where you can be hauled off to prison for any or no reason, with zero recourse. It's unconscionable.

[Sturn]

Good post Sturn.

What's going on as described in the article is a problem that goes far beyond the police themselves. It actually shakes the very foundations of governance. Police are writing these tickets - which I remind you are not like traffic tickets, but are actual criminal charges - based on school rules. It elevates school staff beyond the elected legislature and gives them the ability to make up crimes without a mandate from the people. Disrupting class appears nowhere within the Texas criminal code, yet due to collusion between police and schools you are still being held criminally liable. It has established schools as a zone free of the rule of law, and turned them into a capricious dictatorship where you can be hauled off to prison for any or no reason, with zero recourse. It's unconscionable.

Are you positive that "Disruption of Class" is not an actual law where this is happening?

It doesn't appear from the article that the police are issuing tickets based upon a school rule, but issuing tickets for actual crimes, based upon a violation of school rules (hope that made sense). Is "Disruption of Class", a local ordinance? State? Something the school made up? I can't say for certain from the article.

It doesn't appear it's the school making up and printing their own, "tickets", then calling the police to serve the document for them. That would be completely insane and the school "ticket" would of course only be able to refer to some school disciplinary board, not an actual court, so the police shouldn't be involved at all. The article talks of actual misdemeanor crimes being charged, so I don't think it's an SRO issuing a school ticket for a school disciplinary board.

What could be happening is that actual criminal statutes are being stretched to cover simple classroom disruptions. As in, I've experienced schools wanting us to arrest students for Disorderly Conduct, when the actions of the student didn't really meet the test of the crime. We've told them no over and over. We HAVE arrested students for Disorderly Conduct, but rarely and only if they truly needed to be arrested. They weren't just being disruptive students, they were throwing desks, chairs at other students, etc.

Tickets are most frequently issued by school police for "disruption of class", which can mean causing problems during lessons but is also defined as disruptive behaviour within 500ft (150 metres) of school property such as shouting, which is classified as "making an unreasonable noise".

This quote from the article seems to indicate there is an actual law called, "Disruption of Class". Is this just a descriptive title from a police or teacher's report of what happened, and the law used to arrest was actually something like general Disorderly Conduct, or is there a local or Texas state statute for actual disruptive behavior near/in a school? It appears it's the later, which is not something I've seen before. If this is an actual law, then it's hard to damn the police for being called, seeing a violation of this law, and making an arrest. They are obligated to enforce the laws on the books. If we don't want police to enforce this law, it needs changed or removed from the statute books.

"Teachers rely on the police to enforce discipline," says Simpkins. "Part of it is that they're not accountable. They're not going to get into trouble for it. The parent can't come in and yell at them. They say: it's not us, it's the police."

This crap is what angers me and what I was describing in my earlier post. I've actually seen this first hand for years. The teachers are asking for help from police, the police respond, then the teachers say to parents and others, "hey it's not us that did this, go blame the police!". Our teachers need to grow some balls to get discipline back in their schools, only call police for the actual criminal stuff. However, I can't say this is something only teachers do to police, it's widespread and is yet another nail in police-citizen relationships (example: business asks for help with parking issues near their business, police issue more parking tickets, business tells the customers it's those damn police, customers chaulk it up to cops are being dicks again).

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

This quote from the article seems to indicate there is an actual law called, "Disruption of Class". Is this just a descriptive title from a police or teacher's report of what happened, and the law used to arrest was actually something like general Disorderly Conduct, or is there a local or Texas state statute for actual disruptive behavior near/in a school? It appears it's the later, which is not something I've seen before. If this is an actual law, then it's hard to damn the police for being called, seeing a violation of this law, and making an arrest. They are obligated to enforce the laws on the books. If we don't want police to enforce this law, it needs changed or removed from the statute books.

It looks to me like they're stretching disorderly conduct to cover whatever a teacher says. It elevates a teacher to above the legislature, as I said before. The police chief quoted in the article admits that very few of the things people are being charged with would be considered crimes outside of the school.

[Sturn]

Not stretching disorderly conduct, it's an actual statute:

§ 37.124. DISRUPTION OF CLASSES. (a) A person commits an

offense if the person, on school property or on public property

within 500 feet of school property, alone or in concert with others,

intentionally disrupts the conduct of classes or other school

activities.

(B) An offense under this section is a Class C misdemeanor.

© In this section:

(1) "Disrupting the conduct of classes or other school

activities" includes:

(A) emitting noise of an intensity that prevents

or hinders classroom instruction;

(B) enticing or attempting to entice a student

away from a class or other school activity that the student is

required to attend;

© preventing or attempting to prevent a student

from attending a class or other school activity that the student is

required to attend; and

(D) entering a classroom without the consent of

either the principal or the teacher and, through either acts of

misconduct or the use of loud or profane language, disrupting class

activities.

(2) "Public property" includes a street, highway,

alley, public park, or sidewalk.

(3) "School property" includes a public school campus

or school grounds on which a public school is located and any

grounds or buildings used by a school for an assembly or other

school-sponsored activity.

So, I guess I have to blame those that made and passed this statute into law. If I'm a cop in Texas being called to a school for Joey trying to convince Sarah to skip class with him, I'm going to be forced to arrest Joey if the school forces the point.

[Fragile Bird]

Not stretching disorderly conduct, it's an actual statute:

<snip>

Surely that was never meant to apply to students?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Or 6 year olds.

[CelticBrennus]

Yeah, that really doesnt read like its meant to apply to students.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

It's not even enforceable against six year olds but they're charging them with it anyway.

[thecryptile]

You know this TX law is designed to apply to students. Anyone else they could get on tresspassing and/or disorderly conduct for coming into a classroom and causing trouble.

[Sturn]

Yeah, that really doesnt read like its meant to apply to students.

Doesn't matter. It says "person".

I'm not defending the law, only defending those that are forced to enforce an insane law.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

Since Sturn pointed out that this is an actual statute I will say I can't blame the police for this much. (although to me, a rational person would refuse to enforce such a ridiculous statute). The blame for this falls squarely on the shoulders of the assholes in the Texas state house who put forth this monstrosity and should have known the consequences. Ah, the never ending quest by the government to MAKE people better.

[Sturn]

It's not even enforceable against six year olds but they're charging them with it anyway.

Well, this is crazy also. Where I'm from you can't "charge" a 6 year old with anything.

[Sturn]

Since Sturn pointed out that this is an actual statute I will say I can't blame the police for this much. (although to me, a rational person would refuse to enforce such a ridiculous statute). The blame for this falls squarely on the shoulders of the assholes in the Texas state house who put forth this monstrosity and should have known the consequences. Ah, the never ending quest by the government to MAKE people better.

He could become a very rational, jobless person, and the law would continue to be enforced. Better to convince the DA not to prosecute on these and you have a way to not arrest without losing a paycheck for your family.

[Fragile Bird]

Well, according to the article...

The Texas state legislature last year changed the law to stop the issuing of tickets to 10- and 11-year-olds over classroom behaviour. (In the state, the age of criminal responsibility is 10.) But a broader bill to end the practice entirely – championed by a state senator, John Whitmire, who called the system "ridiculous" – failed to pass and cannot be considered again for another two years.

Even the federal government has waded in, with the US attorney general, Eric Holder, saying of criminal citations being used to maintain discipline in schools: "That is something that clearly has to stop."

As almost every parent of a child drawn in to the legal labyrinth by school policing observes, it wasn't this way when they were young.

The emphasis on law and order in the classroom parallels more than two decades of rapid expansion of all areas of policing in Texas in response to misplaced fears across the US in the 1980s of a looming crime wave stoked by the crack epidemic, alarmist academic studies and the media.

"It's very much tied in with some of the hyperbole around the rise in juvenile crime rate that took place back in the early 90s," said Deborah Fowler, deputy director of Texas Appleseed, an Austin legal rights group, and principal author of a 200-page study of the consequences of policing in Texas schools. "They ushered in tough, punitive policies. It was all part of the tough-on-crime movement."

Part of that included the passing of laws that made the US the only developed country to lock up children as young as 13 for life without the possibility of parole, often as accomplices to murders committed by an adult.

As the hand of law and order grew heavier across Texas, its grip also tightened on schools. The number of school districts in the state with police departments has risen more than 20-fold over the past two decades.

"Zero tolerance started out as a term that was used in combating drug trafficking and it became a term that is now used widely when you're referring to some very punitive school discipline measures. Those two policy worlds became conflated with each other," said Fowler.

In the midst of that drive came the 1999 Columbine high school massacre, in which two students in Colorado shot dead 12 other pupils and a teacher before killing themselves. Parents clamoured for someone to protect their children and police in schools seemed to many to be the answer.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

Notice the false dichotomy that so often accompanies this bullshit. We can either charge children with crimes for talking in class, or we can have MASS MURDER IN OUR SCHOOLS.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

http://www.wbaltv.com/news/maryland/baltimore-city/batimore-city-police-sergeant-avoids-jail-time-in-perjury-case/-/10131532/20225594/-/g8pq58/-/index.html

The two standards of justice again rears it's ugly head. The cop committed perjury to get a false warrant. The police raid destroys a family's home and smashes all their christmas presents. The cop is sentenced to 10 years in prison. Hooray! Justice!

Yeah.....no.

The Judge suspended the entire sentence because he felt that prison was too dangerous to send a cop to. Do you think you or I would get similar leniency for fraud, assault, home invasion, and vandalism? Somehow I don't think so.

[thecryptile]

Tormund, I agree: that is just bullshit! They can always put cops in the snitch wing with the other cops, child molestors and informants. That's what they did with former cops Chris Bond (the meth dealer) and Jonathan Agee (the murderer), in Virginia.

If anything police should be held to a higher standard than citizens. Presumably thier education and training would inculcate respect for the law and its importance in all police officers, thus giving them no excuses when they wantonly break it!

[Sturn]

The Judge suspended the entire sentence because he felt that prison was too dangerous to send a cop to. Do you think you or I would get similar leniency for fraud, assault, home invasion, and vandalism? Somehow I don't think so.

If anything police should be held to a higher standard than citizens. Presumably thier education and training would inculcate respect for the law and its importance in all police officers, thus giving them no excuses when they wantonly break it!

Equal. Less justice is not right. More justice is also not right. It's a travesty when cops avoid justice or are served more justice then anyone else would get.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

I support equal but I understand higher standards. Call it a trade off for qualified immunity. Since you get to break the law under some circumstances without penalty, the penalty is greater when you break it outside your mandate.