R+L=J v.32

[Scarlet Seastar]

I think that the Mad King didn't know about the Whents' possible involvement in the Rhaegar/Lyanna/supposed kidnapping affair. As for why they are so little Whents left, well, it says here [ http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Whent ]that at the start of the books, Harrenhal was ruled by a Lady Whent, married to an unknown Lord Whent and that they didn't have heirs, so I doubt that their possible involvement is the reason for their demise.

[Silent Sparrow]

I think that the Mad King didn't know about the Whents' possible involvement in the Rhaegar/Lyanna/supposed kidnapping affair. As for why they are so little Whents left, well, it says here [ http://awoiaf.wester...php/House_Whent ]that at the start of the books, Harrenhal was ruled by a Lady Whent, married to an unknown Lord Whent and that they didn't have heirs, so I doubt that their possible involvement is the reason for their demise.

Well, I think what actually puts the kibosh on that theory is looking at which houses married Whents: one of Walder Frey's wives was a Whent and one of his kids is married to a Whent and Hoster Tully wed a Whent. They must have been a powerful family who just happened to end up out of male heirs. Curse of Harrenhal, anyone?

[corbon]

Well, I think what actually puts the kibosh on that theory is looking at which houses married Whents: one of Walder Frey's wives was a Whent and one of his kids is married to a Whent and Hoster Tully wed a Whent. They must have been a powerful family who just happened to end up out of male heirs. Curse of Harrenhal, anyone?

And yet, at the Harrenhal Tourney Lord Whent had three sons who championed his daughter's honour...

[Ygrain]

And yet, at the Harrenhal Tourney Lord Whent had three sons who championed his daughter's honour...

The Rebellion, most probably. I think that like the Darrys, the Whents were prominent Targ loyalists and did their duty to their liege, and it cost them dearly. It would also be the reason why the late Lady Whent was unable to maintain the castle any more - she probably lost a lot of lands to the victors.

[Alia of the knife]

The Rebellion, most probably. I think that like the Darrys, the Whents were prominent Targ loyalists and did their duty to their liege, and it cost them dearly. It would also be the reason why the late Lady Whent was unable to maintain the castle any more - she probably lost a lot of lands to the victors.

I think this is a good bet.

It's not so much they fell from favor in Aerys eyes as Aerys didn't live long enough to probably puzzle out their possible involvement in keeping Lyanna "available" to Rhaegar in the lead-up to their disappearance.

However, as much as Robert still lies to himself regarding Lyannas feelings for him, it would appear that at times, there is some lucidity and he realizes the truth, which then would mean he would know/understand the Whents possible complicitness in R+L in addition to being Targ. supporters.

[Alia of the knife]

Whatever the Whents knew, or didn't know of Rhaegars ambitions, (if he even had any), Lyanna herself presented the perfect opportunity and seemed like the perfect way to ingratiate themselves further with the next King.

Especially if by way of Oswell, they realized they could well be hosting the future wife of the next King, making her more accessable to Rhaegar from KL, as Winterfell would be impossible.

[Silent Sparrow]

I think this is a good bet.

It's not so much they fell from favor in Aerys eyes as Aerys didn't live long enough to probably puzzle out their possible involvement in keeping Lyanna "available" to Rhaegar in the lead-up to their disappearance.

However, as much as Robert still lies to himself regarding Lyannas feelings for him, it would appear that at times, there is some lucidity and he realizes the truth, which then would mean he would know/understand the Whents possible complicitness in R+L in addition to being Targ. supporters.

If Lyanna was taken from Harrenhal rather than Winterfell, I don't think Robert would even have to know or understand that. He seems to be more ruled by his emotions than by logic and reason (just my thought about King Bob, at least) and so might have come down even harder on the Whents as Targ loyalists who didn't manage to 'protect' Lyanna or keep her from Rhaegar. All speculation on my part, of course.

[Alia of the knife]

If Lyanna was taken from Harrenhal rather than Winterfell, I don't think Robert would even have to know or understand that. He seems to be more ruled by his emotions than by logic and reason (just my thought about King Bob, at least) and so might have come down even harder on the Whents as Targ loyalists who didn't manage to 'protect' Lyanna or keep her from Rhaegar. All speculation on my part, of course.

Thats probably accurate.

And a really good point on how he would be angry at the Whents for not having more adequate protection for her.

I've been going back and forth between the GOT marathons, and "The Walking Dead," and in the first season of GOT, they showed a scene that I'd forgotten about where King Bob, Selmy, and Jaimie are trading war storys..

Robert talks about killing a Tarley boy, and crushing him, but then he laments about the horror of war and death, and those horrors are the parts the Bards leave out of their songs.

Was that in the book?

Or was the show making an attempt to soften, or make Robert seem more sensitive and a thinker?

And if so, why?

[Black Wolf Smith]

Actually, we've never been told where she disappeared from. A lot of people suspect she may even have been taken somewhere down south, perhaps even at Harrenhal.

Ok even if she stayed at HH for a year/year and half(or was coming back for a "visit" when she went missing) doesnt change my point. Thats a week off the time line. She was still gone for 13 months or more that she was missing.

I mean do you think that Brandon could have made it from RR to KL (and get his friends together) in less then a week? Could Rickard have made it from WF in less then 2? or Ned get from KL to ToJ (with a stop of a day or 2)in less then a week?

[Black Wolf Smith]

double post

[Dragonfish]

Ok even if she stayed at HH for a year/year and half(or was coming back for a "visit" when she went missing) doesnt change my point.

I wasn't trying to change your point. I was simply correcting a misconception.

[Silent Sparrow]

Thats probably accurate.

And a really good point on how he would be angry at the Whents for not having more adequate protection for her.

I've been going back and forth between the GOT marathons, and "The Walking Dead," and in the first season of GOT, they showed a scene that I'd forgotten about where King Bob, Selmy, and Jaimie are trading war storys..

Robert talks about killing a Tarley boy, and crushing him, but then he laments about the horror of war and death, and those horrors are the parts the Bards leave out of their songs.

Was that in the book?

Or was the show making an attempt to soften, or make Robert seem more sensitive and a thinker?

And if so, why?

I think that was just in the show. At least, I don't remember it all from the books. I think the show wants us to connect to all the characters and their stories where the books shows that some people are just not as good as you want them to be. With King Bob, I keep wanting him to show that extra spark of something, but he never does. In the end, he's just a drunk and a rather violent one who never quite gets over the fact that the girl he loved didn't love him back and even after starting a war over her, he didn't get the girl.

[corbon]

If Lyanna was only gone a day or two, I feel that Brandon would have tried to meet them on the road. She must have been gone for a week or more. When Brandon went from RR to KL which would have been another week or more. Rickard came from WF to KL, which would have been at least 2 weeks or more. All of which leads me to think that she was gone for at least 13+ months.

She need only be a single day 'ahead' - heck, she needn't even really be 'ahead' at all, since Brandon went to the wrong place.

But no disagreement in general about potential timeline and her being with Rhaegar 13 months or even more before Ned found her at ToJ.

A baby takes about 10 months. Even if it took 2 full months to get to ToJ, Rhaegar waited even after they got there before getting her with child. Which is why IMO they were married. If he just took her, why would he have waited? He got things in order before he sleep with her.

We have no idea how long he 'waited' or even if he 'waited' at all.

Pregnancy might happen the first time you have unprotected sex. Or the 1000th time.

My wife and I got married ready and actively trying to start a family immediately, due to our ages, and it took 4 months to get pregnant. Thats almost exactly the amount of time you seem to be complaining about with Rhaegar and Lyanna.

[Alia of the knife]

I think that was just in the show. At least, I don't remember it all from the books. I think the show wants us to connect to all the characters and their stories where the books shows that some people are just not as good as you want them to be. With King Bob, I keep wanting him to show that extra spark of something, but he never does. In the end, he's just a drunk and a rather violent one who never quite gets over the fact that the girl he loved didn't love him back and even after starting a war over her, he didn't get the girl.

Thats what I thought.

I didn't think I recalled that dialogue in the book.

[Alia of the knife]

She need only be a single day 'ahead' - heck, she needn't even really be 'ahead' at all, since Brandon went to the wrong place.

But no disagreement in general about potential timeline and her being with Rhaegar 13 months or even more before Ned found her at ToJ.

We have no idea how long he 'waited' or even if he 'waited' at all.

Pregnancy might happen the first time you have unprotected sex. Or the 1000th time.

My wife and I got married ready and actively trying to start a family immediately, due to our ages, and it took 4 months to get pregnant. Thats almost exactly the amount of time you seem to be complaining about with Rhaegar and Lyanna.

It took my friend and her Husband eight months of active trying with their second, when with their firstborn, it happened almost immediately.

[Alia of the knife]

Out of curiosity, do we know how long it took Elia to become pregnant?

I'm curious about the timeline, because it sounds as though Rhaegar was about seventeen/eighteen when he married Elia, but yet Rhaenys was around three when she died, which at that point put Rhaegar around twenty-four.

If thats the case, Rhaegar would have been about twenty-one when she was born, and thats about three years into their marriage if they married when he was eighteen, so Elia either took an alarmingly long time to become pregnant, or was having miscarriages due to her poor health, which probably didn't help the marriage since they would be under pressure to produce an Heir.

[Silent Sparrow]

She need only be a single day 'ahead' - heck, she needn't even really be 'ahead' at all, since Brandon went to the wrong place.

But no disagreement in general about potential timeline and her being with Rhaegar 13 months or even more before Ned found her at ToJ.

That just makes me pity Brandon even more. Poor dude. He died a horrible death and so did his dad because he went in all heroic and everything and just failed for two reasons: firstly, he was a total fool to ride in and demand the crown prince's head and then he wasn't even in the right place.

Sucks to be Brandon.

[Silent Sparrow]

Out of curiosity, do we know how long it took Elia to become pregnant?

I'm curious about the timeline, because it sounds as though Rhaegar was about seventeen/eighteen when he married Elia, but yet Rhaenys was around three when she died, which at that point put Rhaegar around twenty-four.

If thats the case, Rhaegar would have been about twenty-one when she was born, and thats about three years into their marriage if they married when he was eighteen, so Elia either took an alarmingly long time to become pregnant, or was having miscarriages due to her poor health, which probably didn't help the marriage since they would be under pressure to produce an Heir.

We know that Elia was bedridden for a year after Rhaenys' birth and almost died giving birth to Aegon, so I think it wouldn't be a stretch of the imagination to think tha she had prior miscarriages or just had trouble conceiving. Which would have made their marriage very, very stressful because, at least from what Selmy tells Dany, Rhaegar was very conscious of his duty and what is expected of him.

[Alia of the knife]

We know that Elia was bedridden for a year after Rhaenys' birth and almost died giving birth to Aegon, so I think it wouldn't be a stretch of the imagination to think tha she had prior miscarriages or just had trouble conceiving. Which would have made their marriage very, very stressful because, at least from what Selmy tells Dany, Rhaegar was very conscious of his duty and what is expected of him.

That was my thinking too.

It's not like it is today when we first marry that we entertain the idea of "waiting" to have a child.

In those days and in their position, they had to produce an Heir, and the sooner the better, or else the phantom of another succession war might loom, or worse, it would pass to Viserys.

[Zupoleon]

That was my thinking too.

It's not like it is today when we first marry that we entertain the idea of "waiting" to have a child.

In those days and in their position, they had to produce an Heir, and the sooner the better, or else the phantom of another succession war might loom, or worse, it would pass to Viserys.

Pressure of the obligation to produce heirs, AND the pressure to produce "Dragon Heads"; stressful indeed!