R+L=J v.32

[Lady of the Oak]

Thanks for clearing that up ^_^

[stanniswillwin]

is jon a targ or a blackfyre ? can someone clear it up

[MtnLion]

is jon a targ or a blackfyre ? can someone clear it up

I think that Ser Arthur Dayne and his companions made it very clear that Jon is a Targaryen.

[Dragonfish]

is jon a targ or a blackfyre ? can someone clear it up

Well, the dominant theory is that he's the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, which would make him either a legitimate Targaryen or a bastard Targaryen. Note that the latter is not synonymous with being a Blackfyre. The Blackfyre name belongs to the descendants of a specific Targ bastard named Daemon Blackfyre. Other Targ bastards are given the typical regional bastard names, like "Snow", or "Waters", or "Rivers", etc.

[stanniswillwin]

i see

[Scarlet Seastar]

Apologies if this has already been covered but something I have found quite confusing about this theory is to do with the TOJ scene. Why do the Kingsguard fight Ned and Co. in the first place? If this theory is correct (and I firmly believe that it is) then they are fighting the baby's (Jon's) uncle.

Did it never occur to them that they could just talk it out, agree on something that was in the best interests of their charge, or was that just not an option?

I would be very grateful if someone could clear this up for me :)

Also, I think Ned sees Lyanna with Jon after the fight with the KG.

In the dream, she calls out to him from the tower.

I don't remember though, how did Ned know that Lyanna was at the Tower in the first place?

[MtnLion]

Also, I think Ned sees Lyanna with Jon after the fight with the KG.

In the dream, she calls out to him from the tower.

I don't remember though, how did Ned know that Lyanna was at the Tower in the first place?

Ser Arthur Dayne is at the Tower of Joy, and his sister may know know his location. It is entirely possible that Ned was told where he could find his sister by Ashara Dayne, via raven mail.

[Zupoleon]

Ser Arthur Dayne is at the Tower of Joy, and his sister may know know his location. It is entirely possible that Ned was told where he could find his sister by Ashara Dayne, via raven mail.

If Ashara did tip Ned off to Arthur / Lyanna's location, it could be that she then felt responsible for her brother's death, and therefore her reason for killing herself (or disappearing and becoming Lemore ;) )

[MtnLion]

If Ashara did tip Ned off to Arthur / Lyanna's location, it could be that she then felt responsible for her brother's death, and therefore her reason for killing herself (or disappearing and becoming Lemore ;) )

I think that there is more to it, but that certainly could have been a contributing factor. ;)

[Lord Rahvin]

This topic has been done so long and so many times, I'm almost afraid to touch it. So I'll try to make a quick point. Most people believe it was Ashara who tiped off Ned regarding his sisters whereabouts, and sure there is an outside chance. Keep in mind Selmy, Darry, and Martell probably knew Lyanna was @ ToJ. They almost certainly had to accompany Rhaegar back from ToJ to KL. Since Selmy is the only one alive after the Trident, if could be...possible...he told Ned. However, unlikely he would break his vows?

[TyMo]

This is all the evidence I will ever need that Ned is not Jon's biological father:

“I will,” Ned had promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he’d made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he’d paid to keep them.

From AGoT 8th Eddard POV chapter.

I also find it hard to believe Ned could go from being too shy to ask a girl to dance at Harrenhal to, excuse the expression, laying pipe all over the Seven Kingdoms in less than a year's time.

[targaryensarebamf]

I will happily bet everything I own that one parent is a Stark, but that the other is someone we'd never expect.

Like Hodor.

Why'd they keep him around? Because Hodor wanted to see his son grow up?

Why did he accompany Bran to the trees? Because he wanted to be close to the Starks, and in doing so to Jon. He also thought he might see Jon.

Why does he always say Hodor? Because that's Jon's true name, and Hodor wants everyone to know it.

Why you don't take these into consideration, I'll never know.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

This topic has been done so long and so many times, I'm almost afraid to touch it. So I'll try to make a quick point. Most people believe it was Ashara who tiped off Ned regarding his sisters whereabouts, and sure there is an outside chance. Keep in mind Selmy, Darry, and Martell probably knew Lyanna was @ ToJ. They almost certainly had to accompany Rhaegar back from ToJ to KL. Since Selmy is the only one alive after the Trident, if could be...possible...he told Ned. However, unlikely he would break his vows?

I'm not sure that they DID know where Lyanna was. I don't think Selmy knew anything or knows anything about Lyanna's specific location.

[Ygrain]

This topic has been done so long and so many times, I'm almost afraid to touch it. So I'll try to make a quick point. Most people believe it was Ashara who tiped off Ned regarding his sisters whereabouts, and sure there is an outside chance. Keep in mind Selmy, Darry, and Martell probably knew Lyanna was @ ToJ. They almost certainly had to accompany Rhaegar back from ToJ to KL. Since Selmy is the only one alive after the Trident, if could be...possible...he told Ned. However, unlikely he would break his vows?

Did they? I can't recall reading that they were the ones sent for Rhaegar - and even if they were, they would have to know the locatin of ToJ in the first place. And, if they had, they would have been honour-bound to disclose it to Aerys, which would have been disastrous for Lyanna.

[Buried Treasure]

I'd agree, I think Selmy was on the outside of this secret. I've always thought that Rhaegar returned to KL from the ToJ alone and that the other 4 were serving Aerys.

Besides, Ned can't have been told of the ToJ by Selmy as he did not know of the location of the KG until much later. His dialogue gives the progression of his belief of where they were; he left KL thinking he would find the KG at Storm's End, when they were not there Ned concluded they must be with Viserys. Presumably he went on believing that until somebody (Ashara?) told him different.

[corbon]

This topic has been done so long and so many times, I'm almost afraid to touch it. So I'll try to make a quick point. Most people believe it was Ashara who tiped off Ned regarding his sisters whereabouts, and sure there is an outside chance. Keep in mind Selmy, Darry, and Martell probably knew Lyanna was @ ToJ. They almost certainly had to accompany Rhaegar back from ToJ to KL. Since Selmy is the only one alive after the Trident, if could be...possible...he told Ned. However, unlikely he would break his vows?

Martell is a possibility.

I agree that I would expect Rhaegar to probably still have a KG with him when he returns from ToJ to KL even if he leaves 3 behind to protect Lyanna and Jon.

But Barristan and Darry were rallying and regrouping the loyalist forces after their defeat at Battle of the Bells. And Barristan in particualr was never part of Rhaegar's inner circle.

So it is very unlikely that either of those guys knew about ToJ location etc.

[Black Wolf Smith]

This topic has been done so long and so many times, I'm almost afraid to touch it. So I'll try to make a quick point. Most people believe it was Ashara who tiped off Ned regarding his sisters whereabouts¹, and sure there is an outside chance. Keep in mind Selmy, Darry, and Martell probably knew Lyanna was @ ToJ. They almost certainly had to accompany Rhaegar back from ToJ to KL². Since Selmy is the only one alive after the Trident, if could be...possible...he told Ned. However, unlikely he would break his vows?

1.Wait, what? never heard that before. Ned mad at Robert, left KL and went to Storm End. Ned and 6 men then rushed to ToJ. The only theory I have heard is that he got if from someone at SE, likely someone from Dorne.

2 pretty sure that is wrong. Selmy was with Jon Convington at the battle of the bells. After that defeat, he and J Darry were sent to rally the JC men back together. This was when R was still missing. They took those troups to the Trident. He was wounded at the BoT. He wasn't with R until the BoT.

[Budj]

1.Wait, what? never heard that before. Ned mad at Robert, left KL and went to Storm End. Ned and 6 men then rushed to ToJ. The only theory I have heard is that he got if from someone at SE, likely someone from Dorne.

2 pretty sure that is wrong. Selmy was with Jon Convington at the battle of the bells. After that defeat, he and J Darry were sent to rally the JC men back together. This was when R was still missing. They took those troups to the Trident. He was wounded at the BoT. He wasn't with R until the BoT.

Marwyn! Idk...sometimes I hope he was somehow involved to make it easier for Sam to put it together.

[Lady Octarina]

The best explanation I've seen so far is that Rhaegar received a letter demanding his return via Starfall, then went to KL with Whent, leaving Dayne behind protecting Lyanna, and later sent Whent back with Hightower to offer her further protection.

What I'm really curious about is how word could reach him Ned in Storm's End. Because he didn't stay long after lifting the siege, so word of where to find him wouldn't be available to anyone that far from SE at that point, not in time to send him a letter via raven. But if it truly was at Storm's End that he learned of her whereabouts, could it be that we'll find out who told him from an unlikely source that was actually there that day? At least two people who were there (not counting Reed) are still alive: Stannis and Davos. And now a crackpot idea: what if it wasn't Ashara after all, and Ned learned of her location through Davos? The man was a smuggler, it's not that impossible that at some point a few months before arriving at the castle with his onions he had been at sea somewhere near Starfall and heard or saw something. And well, come on, we all know smugglers have their own way of learning things, their own ways of communicating, it's part of the job, so, what if?

[Lord Rahvin]

1.Wait, what? never heard that before. Ned mad at Robert, left KL and went to Storm End. Ned and 6 men then rushed to ToJ. The only theory I have heard is that he got if from someone at SE, likely someone from Dorne.

2 pretty sure that is wrong. Selmy was with Jon Convington at the battle of the bells. After that defeat, he and J Darry were sent to rally the JC men back together. This was when R was still missing. They took those troups to the Trident. He was wounded at the BoT. He wasn't with R until the BoT.

Jamie was being held hostage by Aerys, for fear of Tywin. The 3 KG @ ToJ, is undisputable I hope. This leaves Selmy, Darry & Martell, unaccountable until AFTER the Battle of the Bells. When Aerys was in panic mode, scrambling his troops. Thats when Selmy & Darry were sent to Stoney Sept, Martell was threatened by Aerys, & Rheagar took command. They had to be with R, I cant imagine the crowned prince crossed half the realm, during a war, without any KG in tow?