Jamie Lannister- Most honest and honorable character?

[Foxhound]

Bran, Kingslaying were to protect his family, in a way honorable.

No, throwing Bran out a window is not honourable and it is not justifiable. Jaime was committing a crime (regardless of the morality of him sleeping with Cersei it was a dangerous act) in a stranger's home, and tried to murder a witness. Jaime caused the situation where Bran would pose a threat to him and he is responsible for the consequences. And I am extremely doubtful the lives of his kids, rather than purely himself and Cersei, were on his mind when he pushed Bran. At least when he got to King's Landing he learned to put a guard on the door before fucking Cersei in a public place (albeit one he met 10 seconds ago).

As for the idea that Jaime doesn't lie, I have two comments. First, Jaime either lied to Edmure about murdering his child or (more likely given his opinion about idle threats) was prepared to break his promise to Cat. Second, where did this idea come from that you can be considered honest if you avoid lying out-loud, even if you are also engaged in massive deceptions? I've people claim Varys is a honest character based on the same thing.

[JaegrM]

Put he pushed a little boy out of a window, trying to kill him, just so he could continue to fuck his sister in secret.]

He didn't try to kill Bran so he could keep getting laid.

It says in the book that he did it with loathing.

He Did it so that He and his family could live.

[JaegrM]

"The man looked over at the woman "The things I do for love." He said with loathing."

He didn't enjoy it.

He didn't want to.

He HAD to, to protect himself, his sister and MAYBE his kids.

[Jaime's Wench]

I still believe his threat to Edmure was a brilliant tactical decision, albeit quite evil and dishonourable. He knew he had to threaten with something MASSIVELY EVIL to make Edmure agree to his (very favourable) terms and to avoid bloodshed on both sides. He took a blow to his honour and created another enemy for himself - but he kept his oath and saved lives. That, in my Jaime-like warped sense of honour, is honourable.

Also, the reason why he doesn't love Joffrey is because he had no say whatsoever in the boy's upbringing and had to watch him turn into a monster. There are scenes in Feast to show he does love Tommen - he's considering telling Tommen the truth and asks himself, "Will he prefer a father or a chair?" Therefore, there's enough to show he pushed Bran for both Cersei *and* the kids.

[evita mgfs]

When I reread GOT, all those crows surround Bran when he climbs – and learning what we do in DWD about Bran’s exceptional gifts – Crackpot theory coming – was Bran’s fall and subsequent crippling almost providential? Jamie was the ‘pawn’ in someone else’s game with a bigger picture in mind.

After all, we as readers knew Bran was going to fall, didn’t we? It was foreshadowed enough. Bran didn’t die – he was conveniently crippled, squashing his future desire of becoming a knight. BR needed Bran disabled, or would Bran have ever ended up on the weirwood throne as a ‘willing’ participant? And, Bran did not die – BR and his birds prevented – buffered – his fall so that his injuries were not mortal.

Regardless, this does not excuse Jamie’s actions. However, Bran was ‘destined’ to fall – and would have, no doubt, with or without Jamie’s help.

Perhaps if Ned, when he encountered Jamie on the Iron Throne, had reacted with a tad more emotion – less Stoic Stark honor – and not even at that very moment but later (but before Aerys’ children are presented), he could have taken Jamie aside and said, “What you did lacked honor – you swore an oath. But from my heart, I thank you for killing the man who murdered my brother and father in such a cruel, unforgiveable way – for that, I am grateful.”

How hard would that have been? Maybe Jamie would not have pushed Bran with such ease. Maybe Jamie’s POV would read quite differently – for Ned’s snub certainly weighs on him.

[Sevumar]

Okay-

With Aerys and the Kingslaying...

Isn't he MORE honor bound to disobey his King and not commit Kinslaying?

In Westerosi society, Jaime's actions are considered a breach of honor, but readers should be able to understand that he's doing the right thing by breaking idiotic rules designed to keep a madman's servants from interfering in his desires to murder people. It took Jaime a long time to find it within himself to break free of the constraints placed on him by society and his oaths, but the kingdom is better for it.

"The man looked over at the woman "The things I do for love." He said with loathing."

He didn't enjoy it.

He didn't want to.

He HAD to, to protect himself, his sister and MAYBE his kids.

No, he didn't have to. He could have taken responsibility for his actions, as an adult and as a criminal, instead of crippling a little boy whose intention was never to spy on Jaime's and Cersei's incestuous relationship. Bran was simply a little boy playing around his home, while Jaime was a dishonest man with a terrible secret he was prepared to kill in order to keep.

[Helgar]

If people like Jaime, that is fine by me, but how can anyone come up with excuses for what he did to Bran? It doesn't matter if he felt bad about it, or why he did it. Murdering a 9-year old child in cold blood is inexcusable and should not be justified, no matter how much you like a character.

[houseHB]

I think Bran would have something to say about this

[SerStinger]

If people like Jaime, that is fine by me, but how can anyone come up with excuses for what he did to Bran? It doesn't matter if he felt bad about it, or why he did it. Murdering a 9-year old child in cold blood is inexcusable and should not be justified, no matter how much you like a character.

Even if I hated the character it'd still be justifiable. Self preservation is not a small thing. Imagine you are a soldier, and a child sees you. If he cries out enemy soldiers will kill you. Won't you kill the child?

It wouldn't be a good thing to do but justifiable.

[JaegrM]

If people like Jaime, that is fine by me, but how can anyone come up with excuses for what he did to Bran? It doesn't matter if he felt bad about it, or why he did it. Murdering a 9-year old child in cold blood is inexcusable and should not be justified, no matter how much you like a character.

"The concept of justifiable homicide in criminal law stands on the dividing line between an excuse, justification and an exculpation. It differs from other forms of homicide in that, due to certain circumstances, the homicide is justified as preventing greater harm to innocents. A homicide can only be justified if there is sufficient evidence to suggest that it was reasonable to believe that the offending party posed an imminent threat to the life or wellbeing of another.."

Had Jamie not pushed Bran, he risks his Death, Cersei's, Jofferey's, Tommen's, and Myrcella's.

When All of Tywin's kids and grandkids are killed what do you think he'd do?

You saw what came of Catelynn arresting Tyrion.

It would be war.

I wont claim to know exactly what Jamie's thoughts and rationale were, but we've seen from his POVs that he's not stupid, he's actually rather quick witted.

He's had years and years to consider the consequences of his relationship with his sister ever coming to light.

He did the deed with loathing.

It was a needed evil.

If you could push 9 year old Bran out of a tower and prevent the death of your family and all the casualties of a war, what would you do?

[SerStinger]

"The concept of justifiable homicide in criminal law stands on the dividing line between an excuse, justification and an exculpation. It differs from other forms of homicide in that, due to certain circumstances, the homicide is justified as preventing greater harm to innocents. A homicide can only be justified if there is sufficient evidence to suggest that it was reasonable to believe that the offending party posed an imminent threat to the life or wellbeing of another.."

Had Jamie not pushed Bran, he risks his Death, Cersei's, Jofferey's, Tommen's, and Myrcella's.

When All of Tywin's kids and grandkids are killed what do you think he'd do?

You saw what came of Catelynn arresting Tyrion.

It would be war.

I wont claim to know exactly what Jamie's thoughts and rationale were, but we've seen from his POVs that he's not stupid, he's actually rather quick witted.

He's had years and years to consider the consequences of his relationship with his sister ever coming to light.

He did the deed with loathing.

It was a needed evil.

If you could push 9 year old Bran out of a tower and prevent the death of your family and all the casualties of a war, what would you do?

Sound argument, however, one can still criticize him for not doing it the right way. Throwing someone down from a height is not a sure method of killing them. He soul have broken Bran's neck before throwing him out the window. This could still lead to a war and many lives lost. And it did.

[Michael Snow]

I don't see how any amount of wishful thinking can lead someone to calling the guy who tossed Bran out of a window for snooping around his own house is "the most honourable." That doesn't strike you as hyperbolic? Really? Just because he was protecting his family in a roundabout way doesn't make any dishonourable act suddenly honourable. I can buy the honour in killing Aerys, but not crippling and trying to murder a small boy to keep a dirty personal secret under wraps. That being said, he doesn't beat around the bush, he's funny, and he's interesting. So, horrible bastard that he is, I still like having him around.

[JaegrM]

I don't see how any amount of wishful thinking can lead someone to calling the guy who tossed Bran out of a window for snooping around his own house is "the most honourable." That doesn't strike you as hyperbolic? Really? Just because he was protecting his family in a roundabout way doesn't make any dishonourable act suddenly honourable. I can buy the honour in killing Aerys, but not crippling and trying to murder a small boy to keep a dirty personal secret under wraps. That being said, he doesn't beat around the bush, he's funny, and he's interesting. So, horrible bastard that he is, I still like having him around.

The problem with this point is that you're only looking at the act as Jamie doing something strictly self serving, and I think people are confusing honorable with morals or kindness.

That's why I posted the definitions of Honor and Integrity earlier.

There's no "Roundabout way" about it.

He did it with loathing.

Meaning he did not want to, my take on the situation is since Cersei is there and their lives are at stake he has to do it to protect the Lannisters and possibly even the realm.

Also, as I said earlier is it kinslaying if you allow something to happen that you know will cause the death of your kin when you have the power, and opportunity to stop that from happening?

[Greywater Reed]

Brienne. She's not really done anything dishonourable or shady in the whole series this far. (Whatever might happen with Jaime soon not withstanding).

The truest, noblest, and most honourable knight in the whole series is a woman.

[tallTale]

Jaime Lannister? Please.

This has been argued to death but honorable or not he definitely isn't the most honorable character.

I would say Brienne and Ned are tops. Both are honor first, common sense second.

[JaegrM]

The same Brienne that told Jamie she found Sansa and you know kidnapped him under false pretenses?

Or the Ned that was choking on the bitter taste that his dishonorable tactics left in his mouth in aGoT ?

[Greywater Reed]

The same Brienne that told Jamie she found Sansa and you know kidnapped him under false pretenses?

.... To save the life of an innocent young boy.

You left a bit out ;)

[JaegrM]

.... To save the life of an innocent young boy.

You left a bit out ;)

How is that different than Jamie attempting to kill Bran to save Cersei and family's life as well as his own life?

[Captain Victarion Greyjoy]

Jaime Lannister? Please.

This has been argued to death but honorable or not he definitely isn't the most honorable character.

I would say Brienne and Ned are tops. Both are honor first, common sense second.

This.

Jamie can't be the most honourable man in the book , he might be the most courageous , the most hansome , arogant etc...but honourable nope , once you break a vow ure honour is gone even if you admit it , even if you do 10 honourable things after

. Banging his sis not only he did something bad for the king(robert ) but for his kingdom.

[Greywater Reed]

How is that different than Jamie attempting to kill Bran to save Cersei and family's life as well as his own life?

Because Brienne doesn't have any relation to Pod. He's not her son. She's not his relative at all, they barely know each other. That's pretty selfless behaviour. She doesn't really have anything to gain from it. Besides, Jaime won't die whatever happens, he has plot-armour.

Jaime trying to kill Bran, rather than just lead him into a situation he can escape from, in order to cover up his own crimes. That's not very honourable.