Jamie Lannister- Most honest and honorable character?

[mcb]

His affair with Cersei....

Incesteous.... and technically treason against Robert....

But on the other hand, he's been 100% faithful to Cersei, he's known no other women.

Technically treason? Well, yes, just as what Gregor Clegane did to Aegon Targaryen was technically murder. By the way, if truthfulness is your test of honor, here's another candidate for your prize: Gregor Clegane. Has he ever lied? I can't recall.

[Melpomene]

Honourable? Naaaah. Maybe in the future a stint will occur, but not now.

But he is honest, in his own way. I'm not saying he is the epitomy of pure and true honesty, but he is blunt. He has his way of speaking his mind to somebody, whether it is to taunt or be genuine. Sometimes he will hold it all in, but he will say it like it is in his mind.

Though I do think, for a long time, he hadn't been entirely honest with himself. Nor with certain situations.

[mcb]

It seems that I'm unable to sway anyone's opinions on the matter of Jaime's honor.

But can we at least agree that he is the most honest and loyal of characters?

Most loyal? Whom didn't he betray at least once? He betrayed Tyrion (Shae Tysha), Tywin (freeing Tyrion), Cersei (ignoring her cry for help), not to mention Robert, whom he nominally should be loyal to. Also fucking the queen behind the king's back is anything but honest.

Dude, accept a failure and move on. I'm looking forward to your "Victarion Greyjoy is the smartest" thread.

[Currawong]

He betrayed Tyrion (Shae), Tywin (freeing Tyrion), Cersei (ignoring her cry for help), not to mention Robert, whom he nominally should be loyal to. Also fucking the queen behind the king's back is anything but honest.

Shae?? Don't you mean Tysha? And Jaime was very much under Tywin's thumb during that incident, as indeed were all three of his children until Jaime said NO to his father's machinations. Tywin - well, it's a pity that Tywin didn't confide in Jaime about his plans to send Tyrion to the Wall rather than have him executed, but then Tywin was in a snoot because Jaime finally stood up to him and wouldn't be a part of Tywin's plans. After all, Tywin was wanting Jaime to conveniently bribe his way out of all his KG obligations, just to suit what Tywin saw as Lannister interests. I don't count Jaime freeing Tyrion as a betrayal, but rather something done in desperation for love of his younger brother. Especially as it seems Jaime was the only one who ever loved Tyrion.

Cersei - how exactly did Jaime 'betray' her by ignoring her plea for help? Jaime was many hundreds of miles away sorting out the Riverlands, doing exactly what Cersei as Regent had sent him there to do as LC of the Kingsguard. Have you forgotten that bit? If he is doing his sworn duty as LC of the KG, how can he be 'betraying' Cersei? If Cersei had not sent him away, Jaime would still have been there in KL, protecting Tommen as King, which is what he wanted to do. I don't see any betrayal in Jaime tearing up her letter - rather, I see a man who's finally starting to come to his senses.

[Helgar]

Most loyal? Whom didn't he betray at least once? He betrayed Tyrion (Shae), Tywin (freeing Tyrion), Cersei (ignoring her cry for help), not to mention Robert, whom he nominally should be loyal to. Also fucking the queen behind the king's back is anything but honest.

This, basically. Trying to convince people that Jaime is an honorable character, much less one of the most honorable characters in the series, is pretty much misguiding the fandom. Almost every action that Jaime has ever taken is a stain on his honor, from breaking his vows when he slew Aerys, to trying to murder Bran, to intending to murder Arya (which, by the way, people conveniently forget) all the way into his speech to Edmure.

[Le Cygne]

He decieved his mother, who told him not to sleep with Cersei.

He deceived his father, by going along with Cersei's scheme to rob him of his chosen heir.

He deceived his brother, by lying to him about Tysha.

He deceived the king, by having sex with his wife.

He deceived himself constantly, trying to justify these things.

Is he trying to change? Yes. But he's not been an honest person.

to intending to murder Arya (which, by the way, people conveniently forget)

No, all we know is he didn't do it. Here's the text:

“My sister wanted the girl to lose a hand. The old penalty, for striking one of the blood royal. Robert told her she was cruel and mad. They fought for half the night . . . well, Cersei fought, and Robert drank...

"It was only by chance that Stark’s own men found the girl before me. If I had come on her first... ”

He stops. He's confessing everything else, and yet, he stops. Doing this doesn't fit. He acted impulsively with Bran, and there was the motivation of protecting the other kids. And yet, he regretted it afterwards.

[Ned's Epic Beard]

Justify him all you want, he has done lots of bad things and little good.

Hell, even GRRM considers him as a villain and he was surprised how people try to justify him. He said this in an interview.

Edit: Here is the link:

[Le Cygne]

And then GRRM said that he was trying to protect the kids.

Yes, he did some bad things. Then he did some good things.

Saving Brienne's life was a really good thing. Trying to save Sansa is another really good thing.

[James Arryn]

People are going wild with the false dilemas. For example, the argument that Jaime pushed Bran out of the window for some version of greater good in no way necessitates Bran 'deserving' to die.

Also, whatever you conclude about Jaime's honesty (I think very arguable) or honor (much harder to define/argue, but not out of the question) I think arguing that he pushed Bran to protect himself argues against everything we see about him elsewhere. When it comes to his own safety, he shows repeatedly that that ranks pretty low on his list of priorities. Same for his reputation. I think the only motivation you can attribute to him for pushing Bran is the safety of Cersie and probably to a lesser extent his children. The only possible other argument I can see is some greater motivation in terms of Lannister power vs. Stark or Baratheon threat, but I doubt it needed to get that far. Jaime wouldn't do something he loathed to save his own neck or rep...he'd much rather bring that situation to a confrontation of force.

Secondly, deconstructing the moment Bran arrives to 'was that a result of Jaime's decisions in the first place?' is meaningless semantics. If you choose to skip off work and take your kids to the park and a madman shows up with a gun, or whatever, should you reconsider killing him to save your children's life because you really shouldn't have skipped off work in the first place? Of course not. It doesn't matter anymore what meanderings of destiny and decision got you there...you're there, and your kids are at risk.

That said, Jaime as most honorable is probably a hard argument to make. I think maybe he's among the most honest, and least hypocritical, but I don't think he spends most of his life with too much concern for grander-plan concepts. I think he is among the people leatst likely to do something he actually considers 'wrong', yes, but prior to his amputation he didn't spend all that much time devoted to thinking about what is or isn't wrong...at least not in my opinion. I think, like the Hound, he early on saw how false and fallible the pretenses of honor were for most people in Westeros, and like the Hound he basically decided at that point to not give a fuck about external standards or morality, only he still retained a need/desire to further his family's agenda to some extent...probably mostly for Cersei...and that tied him down a little more than it did the Hound. So someone who says 'fuck it' to society's honor code could still be considered honorable, but as I said it's a harder argument to make, as its harder to distinguish between what he feels is right and what he feels is beneficial.

One point I will say in his favor, and its one I never see raised; by far the most impressive thing about Jaime re: honor or similar is the degree to which he owns the ambiguous moral weight of Kingslaying. He definitely decided to act in the greater good, and I feel most less 'honorable' people would advertise their motivation for breaking their oath, but he doesn't flinch from the concurrent fact that for whatever reason he did break his oath/kill his king, and with one drunken/shock induced exception, tells absolutely no one about the wildfire appocalypse he prevented, even in the face of constant condemnation and mockery. And I feel this has more to do with an inner honesty...ie, the truth was he did choose to do a wrong, even for a right...than with not caring what anyone thinks, which with him is more fluctuant.

So anyways, I think he's fairly high up on the honestly scale, but the honor argument is harder to make. I think I would trust at least a few others to keep their oath to me for its own sake than I would with Jaime...but if, for his own reasons, he decided that oath was important to him, then there are probably few people who you could trust more to do what it took to uphold it.

[Le Cygne]

The pair of them are convinced that they are exactly the same, when in reality they have to make vast compromises to meet in the middle and maintain that fantasy.

I think that's the real significance of the sept scene. They couldn't sustain the illusion after the separation.

Jaime slowly rediscovers his honourable side, he saves Brienne (constantly playing down the act in his head and pretending he wouldn't care if she died) and strives to keep his promise to Catelyn (again, pretending it wouldn't matter if he took up arms against Stark or Tully, but nonetheless going out of his way not to do so).

This is a really great point. I think Jaime suffers the most of any POV character with a surface read. There's a lot of pretending going on.

[StuSeaworth]

Jaime lied when he told his aunt that they buried his cousin on the banks of the trident, and that he fought valiantly.

Nevermind, someone beat me to this information on the first page and I missed it.

[Jolene Brown]

Jaime lied when he told his aunt that they buried his cousin on the banks of the trident, and that he fought valiantly.

That's such a "white lie" though, does it really count? It's like telling someone they don't look fat in that outfit, but more important, and kinder. What should he have done? I thought that was a good example of his growth - if he wasn't that nice to Cleos in life, at least he tried to honor him and comfort his mother somewhat after his death.

[James Arryn]

'wasn't that nice'?

[Jolene Brown]

'wasn't that nice'?

Not like he was mean or cruel, but he was obviously annoyed and impatient with him. I wouldn't say he treated him with respect, but his lie to Genna made him out to have died in a respectable way, which I think is a nice reversal.

[James Arryn]

Not like he was mean or cruel, but he was obviously annoyed and impatient with him. I wouldn't say he treated him with respect, but his lie to Genna made him out to have died in a respectable way, which I think is a nice reversal.

No, my bad. Temporarily confused show with book.

[StuSeaworth]

Slitting Aerys's throat was the most honorable thing someone has done in the series. Sleeping with Cersei was reckless, but not immoral (in my book). Pushing Bran out of the window was necessary to save his own life, so while a very bad thing to do, understandable.

Yes, he is one of the better characters.

He took an oath to protect the king with his life. He took no vow to "do what he thought was best for the realm". Even if the consequences turn our better for westeros you cannot call this action honorable.

[Batman]

No

[CincyBastard]

Jaime is easily one of my favorite characters if not my very favorite character in the series.

[Belandra Waters]

He took an oath to protect the king with his life. He took no vow to "do what he thought was best for the realm". Even if the consequences turn our better for westeros you cannot call this action honorable.

No, far better to behead your own father and allow hundreds of thousands of innocent people to die. To stay true to his vows, I guess Jaime would have to make sure Aerys himself escaped unharmed. Then Jaime Lannister would truly have been "honorable".

[Aquaman]

No

Hey. Batman. I got this. Don't need your help.

But in response to the OP, no.