Jamie Lannister- Most honest and honorable character?

[JaegrM]

So let me get this straight-

The life of a near stranger she's grown attached to outweighs his and 4 other's lives?

[Greywater Reed]

So let me get this straight-

The life of a near stranger she's grown attached to outweighs his and 4 other's lives?

Yes. Simply because she has no reason to. Like I said, that's the very definition of selfless.

Also, it's not a numbers game ;)

[Lord Joker Of FunLand]

His affair with Cersei....

Incesteous.... and technically treason against Robert....

But on the other hand, he's been 100% faithful to Cersei, he's known no other women.

Didn't he have sex with Pia? (not sure of the name...but near riverrun, the girl who got her teeth knocked out by the Mountain)

[JaegrM]

Didn't he have sex with Pia? (not sure of the name...but near riverrun, the girl who got her teeth knocked out by the Mountain)

No he turned her down, even though he was turned on, because he was being loyal

[Lord Joker Of FunLand]

No he turned her down, even though he was turned on, because he was being loyal

Fair enough.

As for the original question...no, he's not. He threw a kid out a tower lol Even if it was to protect his secrets (which is still his fault), it's not honorable at all.

Doing something terrile, to prevent your terrible secrets from coming out...is not honorable, no matter how much you want us to believe it is.

Sleeping with your sister, who's married to the king...is not honorable.

I like Jaime, one of my favorite characters...but i won't pretend that he's the most honorable person in Westeros.

[JaegrM]

Fair enough.

As for the original question...no, he's not. He threw a kid out a tower lol Even if it was to protect his secrets (which is still his fault), it's not honorable at all.

Doing something terrile, to prevent your terrible secrets from coming out...is not honorable, no matter how much you want us to believe it is.

Sleeping with your sister, who's married to the king...is not honorable.

I like Jaime, one of my favorite characters...but i won't pretend that he's the most honorable person in Westeros.

Again-

Why do people look at him throwing Bran from the tower as Jamie protecting his secrets?

That was more or less a secondary benefeit that he accrued.

He was protecting the lives of his family and himself more than his secrets.

He (possibly/probably) was protecting the realm from a war.

[Lord Joker Of FunLand]

Again-

Why do people look at him throwing Bran from the tower as Jamie protecting his secrets?

That was more or less a secondary benefeit that he accrued.

He was protecting the lives of his family and himself more than his secrets.

He (possibly/probably) was protecting the realm from a war.

He didn't care about joff dying, it wasn't because of his kids that he did it.

It was to keep his secret.

Sorry but if you do something horrible, and try and kill someone so people don't find out...does not make you honorable at all.

[Belandra Waters]

You're not honorable because you admit the shit you've done, you're honorable because you don't do it. If you swore a vow to guard the king, you don't kill him, period.

Not even if the king that you've sworn to protect has just ordered you to bring your father's head to him? And you know that he's ordered the burning of the city which will likely mean the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, including innocent women and children? You still "don't kill him, period"?

[JaegrM]

He didn't care about joff dying, it wasn't because of his kids that he did it.

It was to keep his secret.

Sorry but if you do something horrible, and try and kill someone so people don't find out...does not make you honorable at all.

He looks at Cersei with loathing before he does it, then says "The things I do for love."

That makes it quite clear imo that he did not do it for himself- If not to prevent war, or his kid's deaths he at the very very least did it for Cersei rather than himself.

[Lord Joker Of FunLand]

He looks at Cersei with loathing before he does it, then says "The things I do for love."

That makes it quite clear imo that he did not do it for himself- If not to prevent war, or his kid's deaths he at the very very least did it for Cersei rather than himself.

So? If he wasn't fucking his sister in the first place (something dishonorable in westeros), he wouldn't have had to do it.

Again, doing something terrible to cover up something you did, is not honorable.

[MagnusPrime]

first off no jaime is not the most honorable and honest man in Westeros. Secondly your arguments while sound are not going to absolve Jaime of the guilt which he has accrued over the years for the deeds he has committed.

Bran was not deserving of death for discovering two adults screwing in his home! Also jaime was only looking out for him and cersie at that point. The children would only be harmed if someone broaches the topic of them being jaime's. Also he is in Ne's house and ned would not permit Robert to murder innocent children within Winterfell no matter how great his rage

The kingslaying will always be an issue because jaime could have simply immobilized Aerys. He had already killed Aerys's main co-conspirator in the plot and Aerys was going to die by the blade known as Ice once Ned Arrived.

[DaveSumm]

The recent GRRM Q&A is quite relevant to this, he spells out exactly what would have happened to Jaime if he hadn't pushed Bran out the window. Had Bran told someone, and the news got back to Robert, and the discovery made that the children weren't Robert's, they could easily have been put to death as incestual abominations. So if you pose it as a black and white question of 'this guys kid versus three of yours', it becomes a little more grey.

I actually think the real tragedy of Jaime is he could have been the most honourable man in Westeros, if only he hadn't got involved with Cersei. The pair of them are convinced that they are exactly the same, when in reality they have to make vast compromises to meet in the middle and maintain that fantasy. It's one of the best arcs in the series, Jaime and Cersei's arc in A Feast for Crows: we learn what happens when they're not around one another. Cersei, without Jaime's rational side to harness her, becomes a paranoid wreck. Jaime slowly rediscovers his honourable side, he saves Brienne (constantly playing down the act in his head and pretending he wouldn't care if she died) and strives to keep his promise to Catelyn (again, pretending it wouldn't matter if he took up arms against Stark or Tully, but nonetheless going out of his way not to do so).

So no, he isn't the most honourable man. If only he'd been born with another sister, things could have been so different.

[JaegrM]

It seems that I'm unable to sway anyone's opinions on the matter of Jaime's honor.

But can we at least agree that he is the most honest and loyal of characters?

[MagnusPrime]

I can give him loyalty but not honest. That one goes to Davos!

[devilrob6]

Pushing Bran was maybe understandable in Jaime's situation, to save the lives of Cersei, himself and their kids. But that doesn't make it honourable.

[Ser_Patreck]

So let me get this straight-

The life of a near stranger she's grown attached to outweighs his and 4 other's lives?

The problem with this argument is that

1 - Jaime wasn't thinking about his children then. He didn't even think of them as "his children". He was thinking about him and Cersei.

2 - It was Jaime himself that created the danger in the first place. First, by screwing his sister and knocking her up. Second, by screwing his sister in a public space where someone could easily spot them and cause a ruckus.

When you commit a crime to cover up another crime you're being more immoral, not the reverse.

Not even if the king that you've sworn to protect has just ordered you to bring your father's head to him? And you know that he's ordered the burning of the city which will likely mean the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, including innocent women and children? You still "don't kill him, period"?

How about "knocking him down, holing him up somewhere and ordering the city to surrender":

He probably didn't have the authority to order a surrender, tru. But he didn't HAVE to kill Aerys.

It seems that I'm unable to sway anyone's opinions on the matter of Jaime's honor.

But can we at least agree that he is the most honest and loyal of characters?

No.

There are ones more honest and more loyal than him.

Jon Connington, for example.

[Michael Snow]

Jaime isn't as bad as he initially seems, and is definitely improving and evolving as a human being as the story progresses. That's about as close as any reasonable person can get to agreeing with you, OP.

[Belandra Waters]

I don't think we could name anyone the "most honorable" character. I'm quite sure that Jaime is not it.

Having said that, I think Jaime is a man of honor.

To be a knight in Westerosi society and particularly one in the Kingsguard, means vowing to obey a certain set of rules. There is no room for personal decision-making, and if your vows ever conflict with your own personal code of conduct, the vows win out every time. A Kingsguard is judged on his honor by how well he follows the code. It's how they can stand by and watch atrocities being performed on innocent people and do nothing because the first rule of thumb is to protect the king not to judge him.

When Jaime is ordered by the king to deliver his father's head to him, and learns that Aerys plans to burn the city, in all likelihood killing hundreds of thousands of people, he reaches his breaking point. He kills the king. For what he considers "his finest act", he is villified, even by his honorable Brothers.

Ned's honor, while still shaped by his culture, relies more on his personal integriy, rather than on a specific set of rules. His decisions seem to always be based on what the greater good is, even if the decision to be made is personally repugnant to him. He allows room for honorable lies and realizes that sometimes, in life, the lesser of two evils is the only choice that's available.

Jaime's most despicable act was shoving Bran out the window. His first duty is to his king, and by extension, the royal family. If his queen and her children are placed in danger, and they certainly would have been had Bran told what he saw, Jaime's vow is to protect them. There is, no doubt, some selfishness in his attempted murder of Bran, but Ned himself reflects on this during his talk with Cersei. He wonders to himself what he would do, if it came to a choice between an unknown child and one of his own children.

The knightly vows, and those of the Kingsguard, are designed to instruct how an honorable knight behaves in service to the king and the realm. What it does, in reality, is make honorable men behave most dishonorably and forces them to break most of the vows they swear to uphold.

For honor, at its very core, is more about upholding the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law.

[Budj]

His relationship with Cersei has put him in some very difficult situations that pretty much forced him to act dishonorably. The first step to him becoming the man he wants to be was severing the tie with Cersei.

I would say the biggest turning point for him was losing his sword hand. The second step was stopping his "shoot first and figure it out later" attitude and start using / following his head. To me he was always a conflicted person because of that struggle. His sword hand / prowess with a sword had become a crutch forcing an instinctual reaction to a situation which usually ended terribly. That manner of being would have worked out great if he was fighting the "moustache twirling" villains of the Age of Heroes, but not in the situations his actions had put him in. When both of those things were severed he had the ability to find himself.

No, it doesn't make up for what he did, but is it better to make him suffer? Or let him live out a self-imposed penance focusing on cleaning up his act and trying to be one of the knight's the realm needs at this time?

BTW - I don't believe he was really going to launch the baby from a trebuchet...but it was very smart to use his reputation to scare Riverrun into it. Bloodraven would have been proud of that move as another person that had to turn his horribly negative public perception (unjust opinions I might add) to his advantage in dealing with opponents.

To answer the OP - Jaime post-crippling is a contender with the best of them, but since we can't slice it up that way I have to ultimately say he is not the most honest / honorable character. If he manages to keep up his new track record in really difficult situations for the remainder of his living presence in the series then maybe that might change things.

[Currawong]

Not even if the king that you've sworn to protect has just ordered you to bring your father's head to him? And you know that he's ordered the burning of the city which will likely mean the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, including innocent women and children? You still "don't kill him, period"?

Exactly. And this becomes even more interesting when you read Ser Barristan Selmy's thoughts in ADWD, where he reflects on whether he is partly to blame for the final mad part of Aerys's reign, because as a sworn KG knight, he went in and rescued Aerys at Duskendale. He muses about whether he was right to have done so, and what might have happened if he hadn't done this, with Rhaegar taking over as king.