A few thoughts on Edmure Tully

[Buried Treasure]

The plan was devised in the Westerlands and when Robb and the Blackfish left, Edmure has sent every one of his bannermen to defend their lands. There was no Riverlord army with him at Riverrun but a simple garrison. It's while Robb was in the West that he mobilized all the riverlords and the Twins garrison under Tallhart to prevent Tywin from crossing. Given the state of the situation, I think it's fair to say that "hold Riverrun" was clear enough since they couldn't face Tywin in an open field. Edmure made assumptions and gave orders without Robb/the Blackfish or any other lord's assent (the Freys have proven loyal enough, Stevron died for Robb so there is no need for Helman Tallhart to be at the Twins being one of them). He didn't have the numbers when Robb left. Now I would really like to know what Sun Tzu thinks of officers mobilizing/demobilizing troops and making wild assumptions without giving any info to their commander.

Like

But, when considering judgment, the language suggests this was a case of Robb's telling him to not disperse, Edmure insisting on doing so, and Robb conceding the point. Again, ultimate responsibility Robb's, but in terms of military judgment would again seem to suggest Robb and Edmure are operating on different levels, and Robb's failure was to come down to Edmure's, for whatever reason. Maybe the assumption that Edmure's experience (both in terms of age and locale) informed him more than Robb's.

No?

Not quite.

- Edmure requested that the riverlords be released back to defend their own lands. This was not part of a larger strategy but was simply trying to minimise the damage caused by Tywin's marauders.

- Robb's advisor's (Cat and Brynden) disapproved of Robb allowing Edmure to allow this for strategic reasons; without the riverlords adding their numbers to Robb's army success against Tywin would be harder.

- Robb was already developing his plan to take a small, mobile army into the West instead of facing Tywin at Harrenhal. It was around this time* that Robb said with an enigmatic smile something like 'who says I intend to march against Tywin?' His plan in going West was to avoid further pitched battles on riverlands territory and the riverlords defending their own castles / lands better served his strategic vision than them being gathered at Riverrun in an army that he was not intending to use.

*(Actually I think Robb dropped the line about not facing Tywin a chapter later, just before Cat left for Renly. But that line does inform us that Robb developed the germ of the plan about going West on his own and did immediately inform his closest advisors, which means we are not directly informed of when he first came up with the idea. My actual reasoning was the opposite way round to what I said in the previous paragraph, it does not make sense to me that Robb would have ignored the Blackfish's advice w.r.t the riverlords unless he was already planning to go West before we were reintroduced to him at the start of CoK).

[James Arryn]

Interesting, Hard to know when exactly he first began to think along those lines. With apologies to the OP for the diversion, it's also a puzzle how he ever even conceieved of the plan at all. It's not the kind of oblique campaigning we see much of in the books; off the top of my head the Mountain's RL campaign is the only one I can think of, and even that has a slightly less specific objective.

We see from Jon that Ned served as the strategic model for his kids, and yet as solid a commander as he seems, this leap of genius isn't evident in any of his campaigns that we hear of. I've always tried to figure out Robb's inspiration, but haven't yet. I know people think the BF is likely the genesis of his somewhat more reckless/audacious style, but that just seems to be a guess based on his unconventional personality.

[Barty]

But the plan relied on him letting Tywin cross his lands untouched. I could be wrong, but I believe the fords are part of House Tully's personal territory, not just part of the wider Riverlands. Not many lords would let the enemy prance by, ravaging as they went, if they saw an opportunity to stop them. The river crossing was just such an opportunity, and Edmure had every right to take initiative given how open-ended his orders were. He held Riverrun (I really can't stress that enough) and defended his lands.

Hold Riverrun describes a result, not a process. Stay in Riverrun is a different order

held Riverrun against who?? Nobody was attacking Riverrun.

Tywin had no interest in attacking Riverrun and Edmure knew this so the only logical answer is that Edmure was out looking for Glory when he attacked Tywin.

His motivation was not to protect Robb's back, his motivation was not to protect the smallfolk(who were already safe in Riverrun),his motivation was not to follow Robb's command - his motivation was(in his own words) making his father proud or in other words seeking glory.

[Barty]

Now coming back to topic - all I have to say for Edmure is that he was a decent man and would have been a very popular lord for peacetime. But he was also a bit of a trusting fool and would have been taken advantage of even in peace time.

But now all I have to feel for him is pity - his home, his sister, his father, his King - all taken away from him at a relatively young age. I hope he has a big role to play in future books and can redeem his image among the fan base.

[Frey Pie]

Interesting, Hard to know when exactly he first began to think along those lines. With apologies to the OP for the diversion, it's also a puzzle how he ever even conceieved of the plan at all. It's not the kind of oblique campaigning we see much of in the books; off the top of my head the Mountain's RL campaign is the only one I can think of, and even that has a slightly less specific objective.

We see from Jon that Ned served as the strategic model for his kids, and yet as solid a commander as he seems, this leap of genius isn't evident in any of his campaigns that we hear of. I've always tried to figure out Robb's inspiration, but haven't yet. I know people think the BF is likely the genesis of his somewhat more reckless/audacious style, but that just seems to be a guess based on his unconventional personality.

Well Robb has a good mind up on him. His objective is a free kingdom, recognised. His only way to do this is to see another man sitting on the Iron Throne. Tywin is the big obstacle infront of him. Hes in the riverlands but close enough to defend KL if an army moves towards it. So how to get him out? Attack his image, hence his homeland. Simple enough really. Draw him away from KL, and Tywins lost the war and is now just another rebel lord, unless he kneels to Stannis or Renly, the latter one may have heard him out, Stannis never would

[Cravensbayne]

Nice take on Edmure. I always thought he was the idiot little brother in the Tully family. I overlooked the fact that as a Lord, he actually cared about the small folk. I find that very honorable. The thing about him wanting glory is not that uncommon amongst nobles. What young Lord doesn't want glory? Plus if your uncle was a total badass and your sisters married total badasses (was Hoster a badass?), you would probably strive for badassness yourself.

[The Fallen]

` Loras is always looking for glory. And I believe Hoster was definitely a badass.