A few thoughts on Edmure Tully

[Helgar]

That guy seldom gets his own threads in this forum, because he is just one of those characters that are neither major, nor really unique. He does not have any extraordinary qualities and in many ways he can be considered to be a rather lesser man, compared to Tywin, Stannis and Robb. We know that he whores and wenches, much like Robert. We know that he is one of those young knights who dream of glory, pretty much like Ser Loras, only without the skill in arms. We know he is not particularly clever, to put it gently. We know that his fish is floppy. The general consensus about Edmure is pretty low; an empty-headed fool, kind-hearted yet not particularly worth much. However, from some passages that I've collected from the books it seems that he possesses a very uncommon trait, especially for such a highborn lord and especially in a society like Westeros...

This quote is from an Eddard chapter in AGoT.

"Ser Edmure has sent men to every village and holdfast within a day's ride of the border," Ser Karyl explained. "The next raider will not have such an easy time of it."

And that may be precisely what Lord Tywin wants, Ned thoughts to himself, to bleed off strength from Riverrun, goad the boy into scattering his swords. His wife's brother was young, and more gallant than wise. He would try to hold every inch of his soil, to defend every man, woman and child who named him lord, and Tywin Lannister was shrewd enough to know that.

Edmure may not be unique in his gallantry - most young knights are more gallant than wise, and older men know this very well - but this passage tells us something else. In a world full of lords like Roose Bolton and Walder Frey on one hand, and Robb Stark, Tywin Lannister and Stannis Baratheon on the other, it seems that the fate of the smallfolk always comes second to something. Sometimes it is your family being wronged, sometimes it is the right to rule, sometimes it is preserving the prestige of your House, and sometimes it is greed and ambition. Edmure Tully seems to put the fate of the smallfolk above everything, and defends his people with a fierce protectiveness way past the point of wisdom. Which other lords can boast of such a thing? Robb is honorable, but he waged war on the Lannisters to avenge what they had done to his father. Stannis is just, but he puts his right to rule above the well-being of the people he hopes to rule. Tywin Lannister is a shrewd commander, but it seems that shrewd commanders cannot afford to care about whether the smallfolk suffer. All the while Edmure is shedding the defenses of Riverrun to protect a few peasants and sheepherders!

This quote is from a Catelyn chapter in ACoK.

Catelyn jerked her reins hard to avoid him, glancing about in dismay. Hundreds of smallfolk had been admitted to the castle, and allowed to erect crude shelters against the walls. Their children were everywhere underfoot, and the yard teemed with their cows, sheep, and chickens. "Who are all these folk?"

"My people," Edmure answered. "They were afraid."

This tells us the same thing as the first quote. Both Ned and Cat don't seem to hold Edmure in very high regard. He is clearly a fool at war situations, and thinks with his heart rather than his head. This is a very strange and humane approach by a lord to his subjects, even though it's clearly folly. Both passages tell us the same thing: Edmure is not made to be a strategist. But is that really such a bad thing?

I dunno, it just seems queer to me that so often we talk about how this lord or that lord are "making the smallfolk suffer" with the war they are waging, as though protecting the smallfolk is an act of supreme virtue, but the one guy who does everything he can to protect the smallfolk (besides Beric) is held in such low regard. Edmure may not be brilliant like many other characters in the series, and he may not even be particularly quick even by normal standards, but does wit and intellect matter so much? In times of peace, Edmure could be one of the characters best suited for restoring the balance that the War of the Five Kings has dismantled, with someone like the Blackfish on his side to counsel him. We have more than enough cunning in Westeros, but what about spirit? How many characters would risk so much in such a dire situation to keep their people safe? We could say that he is not one of the most outstanding characters in the series, but I think his sweet (and strategically devastating) care for his people is one of the most outstanding traits that a character can have in such a self-serving world.

Just a few thoughts on Edmure Tully.

[Arkantos]

Robb was protecting his smallfolk too, notice how no small folk in the North were harassed?

A lot of the lords think of their smallfolk, and a lot of them realise that taking the fighting away from their homes is the best thing they can try to do.

Edmure was thinking too much in the short term, he wasn't alone in wanting to protect his people, he was just the only one stupid enough to sabotage the war effort to do so.

[Helgar]

Robb was protecting his smallfolk too, notice how no small folk in the North were harassed?

A lot of the lords think of their smallfolk, and a lot of them realise that taking the fighting away from their homes is the best thing they can try to do.

Edmure was thinking too much in the short term, he wasn't alone in wanting to protect his people, he was just the only one stupid enough to sabotage the war effort to do so.

You cannot doubt Edmure's short-sightedness. But looking at what kind of things being shrewd makes you do (Tywin, Stannis) I think Westeros needs someone who thinks with his heart and not his head. Logic in Westeros always seems to dictate that screwing the smallfolk is the way to go.

Robb of course (and Ned, tbh) also cared about their people, but aside from them, I think you'd be surprised to find that not many other lords particularly care. The crushing majority of them always put their House, their honor, and their reputation before their people.

[Jolene Brown]

I think Edmure is very realistic, much like Cat, and therefore in a lot of ways harder to like. I actually think that may be a Tully thing - they are probably the most realistic of the important families, in all their strengths and weaknesses, in the whole series. All the rest - Lannisters, Starks, Martells, Tyrells, Targaryans, Baratheons - are larger than life (the Arryns are pretty much non-entities so I leave them out), but the Tullys are just sort of normal, painfully human people. Even Lysa, while totally pathetic, is just an example of a type of woman who unfortunately does exist - who will put that one guy above everything else, her family, her children, her dignity, everything. The Blackfish is probably the best of them, but he is also pretty human, a bit petulant and reactionary at times (I think his disdain for Jon was quite real), somewhat rash, but also very loyal and caring for his family.

[James Arryn]

One of the more realistic characters in the series. A moral mortal in a land of monoliths.

[Arkantos]

You cannot doubt Edmure's short-sightedness. But looking at what kind of things being shrewd makes you do (Tywin, Stannis) I think Westeros needs someone who thinks with his heart and not his head. Logic in Westeros always seems to dictate that screwing the smallfolk is the way to go.

To be fair, Tywin probably sees his smallfolk as money makers whereas Stannis really wants to protect his people. It's not like Stannis is thinking with his head all the time, he listens to Melisandre without daring to doubt because of what it might mean for his people, that's pretty much thinking with his heart.

Robb of course (and Ned, tbh) also cared about their people, but aside from them, I think you'd be surprised to find that not many other lords particularly care. The crushing majority of them always put their House, their honor, and their reputation before their people.

Well, a lot of the Tully bannermen wanted to go back to their homes and defend their smallfolk, so I don't think the majority necessarily put their house first. Anyway, the honour/reputation of a house reflects a lot on the peasants, if your liege lord acts honourably then enemies are less likely to slaughter the smallfolk in revenge for some bad deed. It's also in their best interests for their lord to remain in power, as they're usually trained to rule their specific bit of land, so of course the lords wants to protect their house, they think they're the best for the job.

[The Blade of Winterfell]

I've never held edmure in poor regard to be honest. He is a kind man to the commoners, the lord that his people would love. Also, he isn't a complete idiot in war, his strategy at the battle of the fords was sound, even if the battle wasn't supposed to happen

[Beeromir]

I've always liked Edmure too. I believe that a lot of the reason Edmure isn't held in high regard is simply the perspective he was written in, and Catelyn is judgemental to say the least. I also blame Robb for this, too. It didn't seem fair to me that he was forced into an arranged marriage to fix the mistake of a king that wasn't willing to honor his arranged marriage.

[Jolene Brown]

I also blame Robb for this, too. It didn't seem fair to me that he was forced into an arranged marriage to fix the mistake of a king that wasn't willing to honor his arranged marriage.

When you put it like that... it does seem totally ludicrous doesn't it?

[The Unburnt Hound]

He may have not been the smartest, but he did care about his people which is admirable.

[Stark Avengers]

Good post topic......

I think a lot of the dislike comes from his decision to defend the Riverun area and stop Tywin Lannister which was to ultimately throw a spanner in Robb's plans. Personally I always felt that Robb should have told Edmure what their tactics were.

I do hope the story goes to Casterly Rock anyway....so perhaps we'll see Edmure again

Shame he married a Frey

[Aquaman]

Family. Duty. Honor. The Tully words.

Being a tactician is not neccessary to be a great lord. Edmure would have made a great lord.

He is much like Eddard, but unlike Eddard, Edmure is the Lord Paramount of a region that is inherently indefensible. Attempting to defend every portion of the Riverlands is honorable and admirable, but the more beneficial and practical method would have to gather his forces and defend key locations.

[The Lord's Kiss]

Robb was protecting his smallfolk too, notice how no small folk in the North were harassed?

A lot of the lords think of their smallfolk, and a lot of them realise that taking the fighting away from their homes is the best thing they can try to do.

Edmure was thinking too much in the short term, he wasn't alone in wanting to protect his people, he was just the only one stupid enough to sabotage the war effort to do so.

Edmure's lands were literally the middle of a war zone, the Riverlands has no natural defenses so Edmure had to use his men. Robb had Moat Cailin and the Neck to prevent anybody from getting through to harass them.

Except those pesky Iron Islanders who proceeded to take the entire North from him and harass hundreds of small folk. Ruining Robb's war effort and costing him his life :(

[Pod The Impaler]

Edmure is a bit like Renly, in that he probably makes a good peacetime lord, but is not cold-blooded enough to be great at making war. He clearly wants to prove he's no craven, but when he does so, it seems to backfire on him.

I don't really blame him for his mistake in the opening of the war, because he really did not know it was the opening of a war - raiders without banners were pillaging the Riverlands, and until he got smashed by Jaime Lannister's larger host, did he even know it was a full scale war? He sent someone to ask the Lannisters intentions, and that was the answer.

As well, his forward defense of Riverrun was admirable, but out of sync with the grand strategy, though as some point out, he did not know what that strategy was.

Keep in mind though, the others children of Hoster Tully have no right to really criticize.

Lysa was a clingy basket case, who got herself wrapped up in something terrible, based on a lie.

And Catelyn ... well, she is not the most coldly logical person either. After all, she freed the Kingslayer, out of grief and desperation, which helped torpedo Robbs war effort some more.

So by comparison, Edmure still comes off rather well. He hasn't poisoned his spouse then hidden up in the mountains. He hasn't gone mad and released an enemy who injured one close family member, crippled another, and vowed to kill yet another if ever given a chance to.

Maybe Tullys are just too emotional.

[The Lord's Kiss]

This is an excellent post. Edmure is my favorite Tully and gets too much hate around here for mistakes that Robb made. Also, the Blackfish kicked all those small folk out in preparation for siege and he is universally beloved.

I thank God Jaime would not honor his aunt's request to have his head off.. Once Riverrun is restored to him and he is the Lord Paramount of the Trident under a better king, he will have learned from the few mistakes he has made and will make the Tully's a Great House once again.

Edmure has always been one of my favorites, I could never figure out why. Probably because he was always getting shit on by everyone else, also the fact that it's easier to relate to this more realistic person when everyone else is so extraordinary.

My personal favorite. "'Fish swim. Even black ones.' Edmure smiled."

[The Storm Queen]

I think Edmure is very realistic, much like Cat, and therefore in a lot of ways harder to like. I actually think that may be a Tully thing - they are probably the most realistic of the important families, in all their strengths and weaknesses, in the whole series. All the rest - Lannisters, Starks, Martells, Tyrells, Targaryans, Baratheons - are larger than life (the Arryns are pretty much non-entities so I leave them out), but the Tullys are just sort of normal, painfully human people. Even Lysa, while totally pathetic, is just an example of a type of woman who unfortunately does exist - who will put that one guy above everything else, her family, her children, her dignity, everything. The Blackfish is probably the best of them, but he is also pretty human, a bit petulant and reactionary at times (I think his disdain for Jon was quite real), somewhat rash, but also very loyal and caring for his family.

And this why I love them all so much: TULLY GO!!!! *

[Jaime's Wench]

I am glad you started this thread because I really like Edmure. There's more to him than people give him credit for. We first meet him when he's having to be the lord of Riverrun in everything but title, whilst his father lays on his deathbed. Catelyn is catty about that, which I am sure is meant to put us off him, but really what choice did he have? Like Robb, he was stepping up and filling that place because his father couldn't.

I agree about the Tullys being more 'real' than other houses, and of the three siblings, Edmure is the one who seems to have the most level head on his shoulders. He accepted that he had to marry whichever Frey girl he was given because of his nephew's mistake and acted with duty and care for his people while he held Riverrun. And let's be honest, he's had a pretty horrific time since the Red Wedding.

I really want him to become a key player in the next two books. He's in Casterly Rock, which *has to* come under attack soon, although I fear it'll be the ironborn who set their sights on it first. It will be interesting to see what he does at this point, as he so clearly hates the Lannisters.

[Tony Soprano]

Edmure is a really good guy, and he's not given enough credit as he deserves. I think most of that is attributed to the way Robb and The Blackfish treated him after the Battle of the Fords. If Robb and the Blackfish had bothered to tell them their plan of forcing Tywin to go west, Edmure would have allowed it to happen.

And I also think Edmure would be a good lord. Granted. he's not really a talented commander, but does that really matter when you have vassals like Jason Mallister and Karyl Vance? If Edmure was on his own during the Battle of the Fords, I don't think things would have turned out the way they did. I think they were the ones responsible for the victory, Edmure himself would never hold out against The Mountain and Tywin.

Most importantly, he cares for his people. What he did at the Battle of the Fords, he did it for what remained of the smallfolk in the Riverlands. He didn't want The Mountain to kill his people and burn his fields again.

:cheers:

Cheers to Edmure. He'll be a great lord when the Lannisters are dealt with.

[lilenadheas]

I've always liked Edmure too. I believe that a lot of the reason Edmure isn't held in high regard is simply the perspective he was written in, and Catelyn is judgemental to say the least. I also blame Robb for this, too. It didn't seem fair to me that he was forced into an arranged marriage to fix the mistake of a king that wasn't willing to honor his arranged marriage.

To be fair, Robb didn't actually force him into it, he said he wouldn't "command him in this", although he then proceeded to guilt him into it without actually giving the command, backed by Cat and Blackfish. Pretty shitty thing to do, but necessary I guess.

poor Edmure

[Frey Pie]

What could be more honourable then protecting your smallfolk? Always been a fan