A few thoughts on Edmure Tully

[Arkantos]

Yes, you can blame Robb for that and should. He and the Blackfish knew that Edmure was hungry for glory, but they still left him vague orders with a lot of room for interpretation. Edmure didn't actually disobey anything - he held Riverrun, and also bloodied Tywin's nose. He was not told "stay in Riverrun and let Tywin pass." He was told "hold Riverrun." Which he did.

Holding means to stay in that position and defend it, need I bring out my bridge analogy again? Hold means don't run off and do something else. When they say hold your horses, they don't mean move them somewhere.

Also, why should Edmure be able to put together Robb and the BF's plan, assuming they weren't lying about it (a theory many have)? Robb facing Tywin Lannister on his home turf, outnumbered at least 4 to 1, does not seem like a winning strategy to me. Yes, Robb had won upset victories before, but with suprise. He would not have been able to surprise Tywin in the Westerlands, no way. Riding around plundering and taking castles was a better strategy than facing Tywin head-on. Edmure did the logical thing and protected his King, who was in enemy territory, from a much larger force.

Well, Catelyn put together that if Tywin was defeated he could head straight to KL, after looking at the map once, which isn't good for Robb as it could and did mean the defeat of the Baratheons.

Edmure should've also been able to put together that Robb was staying in the west for a long time and thus had a plan to fight Tywin, why else would he spend so long there?

Edmure should've known that Robb wasn't the type to plunder for the sake of it, he didn't relish harming the smallfolk due to what their leaders did. It's not like Tywin could've caught them anyway, they were almost entirely mounted, did he think Robb would get caught with his pants down?

Another thing, Robb would've had the element of surprise in a way, as they found the perfect place to fight Tywin, no matter how well you know your own land it doesn't mean that it can't be used against you. The logical thing for Edmure to do would be to sit and think, not do the first thing that comes into your head.

And which do you think played a bigger role in losing the war: Edmure's victory over Tywin or Robb's release of Theon Greyjoy and betrayal of House Frey?

If Tywin had been defeated or held up in the west then Stannis will have most likely sat the Iron Throne and then the Freys wouldn't have had enough backing to go through with the RW and the Ironborn would've been soundly dealt with. Anyway, who could've expected Balon to be such a complete idiot to only hold a grudge against one of the many regions that was involved in putting down his previous rebellion?

Glad you can put it so well, I don't have the patience to deal with this kind of thing. He obviously doesn't want to see it any other way and will probably not even read your post. It's true though, Edmure's fuckup, if it even was one, pales in comparison to letting Theon go and marrying Jeyne, but he won't care.

Then again, he may not even see said post. This discussion wasn't about whether Robb made bigger mistakes, twas about Edmure making a very big one.

[Edmure Floppy-Fish Tully]

I will make a lengthier post on Ser Edmure Tully tomorrow. In the meantime:

(to the OP)

1. He is not stupid

2. His fish is not always floppy (just that one time :drunk: )

[Edmure Floppy-Fish Tully]

And I also think Edmure would be a good lord. Granted. he's not really a talented commander, but does that really matter when you have vassals like Jason Mallister and Karyl Vance? If Edmure was on his own during the Battle of the Fords, I don't think things would have turned out the way they did. I think they were the ones responsible for the victory, Edmure himself would never hold out against The Mountain and Tywin.

...

The plan for the battle was Edmure's, you know... Mallister and Vance only followed the orders they were given.

...

So yeah, Edmure's plan, Edmure's victory.

[voodooqueen126]

You cannot doubt Edmure's short-sightedness. But looking at what kind of things being shrewd makes you do (Tywin, Stannis) I think Westeros needs someone who thinks with his heart and not his head. Logic in Westeros always seems to dictate that screwing the smallfolk is the way to go.

Robb of course (and Ned, tbh) also cared about their people, but aside from them, I think you'd be surprised to find that not many other lords particularly care. The crushing majority of them always put their House, their honor, and their reputation before their people.

Well Westeros needs people who are driven by their morals and then act rationally to pursue those aims.

But in terms of a peace time ruler, Edmure would be good, since a kind leader who cares for his small folk would be quite a lot better for the economy then someone like Tywin, who hires psychopaths and starts wars over miniscule slights.

Belgium it shall be noted has a very similar geographical position to the Riverlands, and isn't it a rather wealthy nation?

[Ramsay Gimp]

Holding means to stay in that position and defend it, need I bring out my bridge analogy again? Hold means don't run off and do something else. When they say hold your horses, they don't mean move them somewhere.

Says who? The fact that most people on this board think Robb was more at fault than Edmure shows that "hold" isn't as simple as you'd like it to be. And you haven't given a good reason why Robb couldn't have just told Edmure the plan. No matter who was at fault, simply telling him beforehand would have solved the problem before it arose. And "Edmure should have used his telepathy to deduce this complicated plan" isn't good enough.

But you refuse to acknowledge any of Robb's grievous mistakes/errors, and would like to pin it all on Edmure, so I don't see any point in arguing with you.

[Scipio Africanus]

Always got the impression Edmure was looking for glory. His dad was a formidable figure in Westeros politics and a powerful guy. His uncle was a famed soldier. He was getting his thunder stolen by a 15-years-old boy who basically had saved the Riverlands by calling his own bannermen and marching south. While Robb was liberating Riverrun he was already defeated and imprisoned.

Edmure saw an opportunity here he though too good to pass. Just reread the Catelyn POV where he was talking about his plans to attack Tywin. The biggest mistake of course is removing troops from the Twins and basically assigning Bolton an independant command, without any second thoughts to the strategic implications or asking permission from his commanders.

However he fully considered the Freys loyal (and Bolton too) so in his mind there were spare troops just sitting around, and he could deal a blow to Tywin's army. Remember, his lands (which he felt responsible for) were being pillaged and burned and raped for months now. His bannermen were bleeting like sheep and clamouring for revenge.

I fully supposed he felt pressured to do something and those nice troops sitting around at the Twins seemed like a good idea to I) strike back at the Lannisters and II) get some glory for his own.

In retrospect Catelyn was right about feeling it was a bad idea. The Freys and Boltons were not loyal and I fully suppose at this time Tywin began communicating with the Freys (or maybe even before that, right after the battle of the Green Fork) but now that troops were removed from Walder Heffner's pad the Freys could really start plotting.

[Arland]

With regard to "he should have deduced" it idea:

If it was so easy for Edmure to deduce it, it was ten times more easier for an experienced commander like Tywin - so it wasn't really much of a plan.

My guess, it was always a bit of a longshot, though of course battle of the fords didn't help it either. Robb and Blackfish just made much more of it because they were desperate to guilt Edmure into marriage.

[RedBean]

I never got why Robb couldn't simply have told Edmure his plan. It's not like it would have cost him anything to get the future lord of Riverrun into his confidence. If anything, it would have helped strengthen their alliance. But who're we kidding? Since when has Robb ever been able to actually hold on to an alliance? He's a complete moron around his followers.

[Grip]

I have always liked Edmure and never felt that he was at fault for not doing what Robb and the BF intended, since he wasnt told of their plans they can hardly start to point fingers. I supppose it might just have been a way of putting pressure on poor Edmure, that they knew how he would act all along. That way Edmure would feel the need to make up for his mistake, IE by accepting his marriage. Wether that is true or not doesnt change anything really, Edmure remains a likeable character who is in for a rough time. I do hope hovewer that he somehow makes it through.

Edit: Just saw that the marriage idea has already been posted, anyway I think its quite likely Robbs and BF's intention.

[Narwhal Stark]

I'm a Tully and Stark lover, I like every character in both families (except for Lysa), but I feel that neither Robb nor Edmure should should full responsibility for the failed plan... On the one hand Edmure did disobey his order to hold Riverrun (although defending the Ford could be seen as protecting Riverrun) but on the other hand how hard would it have been for Robb to give him a heads up, unless Robb devised this play whilst in the Westerlands and did not want to risk sending a messanger or raven should they fall into the wong hands. Just my thoughts, personally I feel that the Riverlands/North alliance and maybe the Vale will be reborn soon, either Edmure will retake it or a Stark (Bran/Rickon) will inherit it through Catlyn

[LordBloodraven]

I like Edmure alot and I admit I'm sometimes harsh on him. He's a good man, perhaps too good for Westeros and its game of thrones. More than that, I think he wants to be loved and considered by his family (Cat, his father), by his bannermen and his people. That drive leads him to be overgallant at times and make disastrous strategic decisions (splitting his troops to face Jaime, telling his bannermen to go back and defend their lands instead of regrouping them, summonning the garrison at the Twins and Roose Bolton's host without referring it to Robb). Though Robb and the Blackfish fucked up by not telling him their intentions to lure Tywin west, Edmure was overgallant and wanted to "bloody Tywin's nose" and to that endeavour, he remobilized the Riverlords, and achieved only to prevent Tywin from crossing the Red Fork. It was a victory but no gamechanger for the Starks/Tullys. Tywin could never besiege Riverrun with Roose and Robb at his rears.

[Rolex Baratheon]

Edmure isn't a sad guy trying to grab what love he can. His family is a decent one and they do love him. We already know Catelyn loves him dearly as a little brother and his father was proud of him as well. He's an only son, of course he will have a special sort of affection from his parents.

[AvengerofWinterfell]

well the Tully words are "Family, Duty, Honor" so he likely takes his duty to protect his people very seriously.

[Blackfish Tully]

I never got why Robb couldn't simply have told Edmure his plan. It's not like it would have cost him anything to get the future lord of Riverrun into his confidence. If anything, it would have helped strengthen their alliance. But who're we kidding? Since when has Robb ever been able to actually hold on to an alliance? He's a complete moron around his followers.

When Robb left Riverrun there was no plan to tell Edmure about . It wasn't until Robb was in the west and found a good ambush spot that he and The Blackfish came up with the plan to draw Tywin into an ambush . At that point there was no way to safely get the plan to Edmure so they would have to trust that Edmure figured it out and allowed Tywin to pass .

[Barty]

I never got why Robb couldn't simply have told Edmure his plan. It's not like it would have cost him anything to get the future lord of Riverrun into his confidence. If anything, it would have helped strengthen their alliance. But who're we kidding? Since when has Robb ever been able to actually hold on to an alliance? He's a complete moron around his followers.

Robb could have simply made up the plan in the westlands - there is nothing to suggest that he did not initially go there just to destroy the Lannister army at oxcross and pay back the Lannisters in their own coin. If that is true then he can't tell Edmure because sending a raven with such details is pretty stupid.

Another reason could be that Edmure was never in Robb's inner circle of generals and advisers (the ones who come up with the plans) - he had men like the GreatJon, BlackFish, Rickard Karstark, Meage Mormont etc - all well experienced men(and women) who know what they are doing - Edmure has not earned his place in Robb's inner circle - he is overeager and has very little brain for strategy (his record at that point was losing the golden tooth, loosing the battle of Riverrun and getting himself captured)

[Dark Heart]

Too many good points to quote them all.

So, in short;

- I think that he's a good man trying his best,

- That his care (while not wise in wartime) for his people is uncommon and admirable,

- That he wasn't to blame for not knowing things Robb hadn't told him,

- That his willingness to "take one for the team" and take a Frey wife shows how devoted he is to his family and war effort (especially if you compare if with Robb) ,

- A lot of people would blame their wives for (much smaller then RW) things their family did.

But he genuinely care for her and the child they made. Even if that that child ends up being his death,

- His wife cares for him. Their circumstances are far from normal but, in a world that unhappy and cold couples are the norm, it's telling that she finds something about him to like.

[Barty]

With regard to "he should have deduced" it idea:

If it was so easy for Edmure to deduce it, it was ten times more easier for an experienced commander like Tywin - so it wasn't really much of a plan.

My guess, it was always a bit of a longshot, though of course battle of the fords didn't help it either. Robb and Blackfish just made much more of it because they were desperate to guilt Edmure into marriage.

It was easy to deduce it because Edmure knew via Catelyn that Stannis was heading for KL and Tywin had no idea(he received word much later). Without Stannis attacking KL - Tywin has no option but to go back to the westlands(see Robb having to go back North) even if he thinks it's a trap - if you leave your bannermen's lands(and your lands for that matter) to be ravaged and burned and not lift a finger to save them then they lose all respect for you and will be more eager to desert - also it is extremely bad for your reputation - look at what the ironborn did to Robb's reputation(the king who lost the north).

Robb was forced to leave the riverlands when it was being threatened by the Lannisters and Tyrells to go back to the North right through Moat Cailin,the trap which Balon had set for Robb and the trap which Robb very well knew about but still had no choice but to spring it. Clearly showing that a good general cannot leave his own lands to his enemies even if he knows his enemies have laid a trap for him there.

[Axrendale]

When Robb left Riverrun there was no plan to tell Edmure about . It wasn't until Robb was in the west and found a good ambush spot that he and The Blackfish came up with the plan to draw Tywin into an ambush . At that point there was no way to safely get the plan to Edmure so they would have to trust that Edmure figured it out and allowed Tywin to pass .

There was nothing about an ambush in any of Robb and the Blackfish's plans. After Tywin returned to the Westerlands, what they were planning to do was play for time by leading him on a "merry chase" up and down the coastline, before moving to the Goldroad to take up a defensive position at the location that Bryden's scouts had located (where the ground was said to be "in their favor"). The basic thrust of their strategy was to avoid open battle and prevent Tywin from being able to return to King's Landing in time to save it from Stannis's impending assault, after which they hoped to bring him to the negotiating table and forge a peace acknowledging the Kingdom of the North.

[LordBloodraven]

Edmure isn't a sad guy trying to grab what love he can. His family is a decent one and they do love him. We already know Catelyn loves him dearly as a little brother and his father was proud of him as well. He's an only son, of course he will have a special sort of affection from his parents.

There's a quote in Cat's chapter where Edmure says that he would have loved Hoster to be proud of him (not because he's his only son. Edmure is definitely loved by his family. But there are many hints in the books that shows that he wanted to be more than that, to prove his capacities to all of them.

[Jaime's Wench]

There's a quote in Cat's chapter where Edmure says that he would have loved Hoster to be proud of him (not because he's his only son. Edmure is definitely loved by his family. But there are many hints in the books that shows that he wanted to be more than that, to prove his capacities to all of them.

He may yet get his chance ;-)

I really like Edmure (I've said this before, but I'll say it again...) I think he's more real than some of the other sons of Great Houses. He doesn't go to stupid measures for personal glory, but that doesn't mean he desires it any less. He isn't the most epic fighter, the envy of everyone, the knight that all will sing about... but isn't that more true to life? Most of the knights in Westeros will be like him... or dead.

He also got a bad turn during the war. He was given epic responsibility when it came to Riverrun, but none of the credit or recognition that his uncle or nephew received. I really loved him at the end of AFFC - he made the right decision to accept Jaime's offer - and had the gall to say exactly how much he hated him.