Jon Snow's Death?

[Aegon Spengler]

Assuming Jon is dead, the consensus of how he gets out of this is either he wargs into Ghost or Mel uses her magic to revive him. But I've been thinking how cool it would be if BOTH of these things happen. Jon wargs into Ghost, then Mel resurrects his body, but there's no Jon Snow in there anymore, so he's some gruesome Other-like character. George has said that Jon's story will get "much darker." And there's tons of foreshadowing that Jon will live inside Ghost, at least for a time. What do you guys think?

[Lord Ravenstark]

Assuming Jon is dead, the consensus of how he gets out of this is either he wargs into Ghost or Mel uses her magic to revive him. But I've been thinking how cool it would be if BOTH of these things happen. Jon wargs into Ghost, then Mel resurrects his body, but there's no Jon Snow in there anymore, so he's some gruesome Other-like character. George has said that Jon's story will get "much darker." And there's tons of foreshadowing that Jon will live inside Ghost, at least for a time. What do you guys think?

Maybe he can just stay dead for a while and then back... the thing about an assassination and then a instant resuscitation would be.. a bit unpleasant.

[Stannis Lives]

Targs aren't immune to fire.

Some are. I think Dany coming out of a burning pyre of flames proves that. As does Dany flying on the back of drogo on fire but only getting blisters. Quentyn is certainly not immune to fire and that's why they say, he's not a dragon.

[WildBlood]

Some are. I think Dany coming out of a burning pyre of flames proves that. As does Dany flying on the back of drogo on fire but only getting blisters. Quentyn is certainly not immune to fire and that's why they say, he's not a dragon.

None are.. Martin confirmed this in an SSM. Dany walking out of the pyre was some MMD magic at work. Or so the theory goes. Either way that was a one time thing. Proven by the fact that Dany does get burned in the fire pit in ADWD. Sure she likes things hotter than the norm but not immunity.

[Stannis Lives]

None are.. Martin confirmed this in an SSM. Dany walking out of the pyre was some MMD magic at work. Or so the theory goes. Either way that was a one time thing. Proven by the fact that Dany does get burned in the fire pit in ADWD. Sure she likes things hotter than the norm but not immunity.

I'm not sure where i stated in the original post that all targs are immune to fire. I said I bet a Targ could blow the horn. She doesn't need to be immune. She needs to have a certain "magical property" or whatever you want to call it in order to blow the horn and she has it. She walked out of a burning pyre and anyone else on that dragon would have burned to death. All POV's have commented on it.

[WildBlood]

look at the post directly above mine. that is what i responded to.

"targs arent immune to fire"

you said: some are.

[Stannis Lives]

look at the post directly above mine. that is what i responded to.

"targs arent immune to fire"

you said: some are.

I was being sarcastic as Dany walked out of a flaming pyre

[Oblivian]

Jon will be saved by Bloodraven be same way Bran was. When Bran fell from the tower, everyone was surprised he'd survived. Even in ACoK as Bran's leaving the ruined castle he sees fallen gargoyles from the same tower, shattered on the ground, and remarks how he doesn't know how he could have survived that fall. Clearly, the Three Eyed Crow has some power to keep people from imminent death. He did for Bran, and will do it for Jon. He'll survive his injuries with just a few scars.

[Sword of the Mid-Afternoon]

Personally, the thing the that piques my interest is that GRRM says "He never felt the fourth knife...only the cold". The way I see this is because Jon never felt felt the fourth knife because it didnt stab him. Someone/thing/angry giant stepped in and intervened. Also interesting is that Mel leaves the Shieldhall before Jon finishes his speech so maybe she has something to do with it.

[Stannis Lives]

Jon will be saved by Bloodraven be same way Bran was. When Bran fell from the tower, everyone was surprised he'd survived. Even in ACoK as Bran's leaving the ruined castle he sees fallen gargoyles from the same tower, shattered on the ground, and remarks how he doesn't know how he could have survived that fall. Clearly, the Three Eyed Crow has some power to keep people from imminent death. He did for Bran, and will do it for Jon. He'll survive his injuries with just a few scars.

I completely agree with you. I've said it all along. Either Bran or Bloodraven will protect his consciousness. Not so sure about his body though. They may bring him into the trees or put him into Ghost temporarily. Or maybe they take him out of ghost. His dream of a tall warrior with blue eyes and cold skin with a flaming sword is way too coincidental. It would be bad ass to see Jon's consciousness in the body of an Other, leading the wildlings and Others against the boltons and lannisters carrying Lightbringer which he will find in the catacombs of Winterfell. It's time for the good guys to win one. Coldhands already proves that Bloodraven has the power to save consciousness from become a Wight. Coldhands is obviously a tool of Bloodraven. Maybe Jon will become Coldhands.

[Lord Ravenstark]

Jon will be saved by Bloodraven be same way Bran was. When Bran fell from the tower, everyone was surprised he'd survived. Even in ACoK as Bran's leaving the ruined castle he sees fallen gargoyles from the same tower, shattered on the ground, and remarks how he doesn't know how he could have survived that fall. Clearly, the Three Eyed Crow has some power to keep people from imminent death. He did for Bran, and will do it for Jon. He'll survive his injuries with just a few scars.

I think that if Jon will be saved, it would be by Bran not Bloodraven.

[Blackfish Greyjoy]

I won't believe he is dead until I read a Pov saying so... It seems kinda similar to when the hound hits Arya on the back of her head with the flat of his axe, it was written to make it look like she died from a axe to the head (I thought she had died) obviously GRRM wants us to think he is dead.

[Buckthorn]

The way I see it, Jon will end up with more scars before the book series ends.

[Cold Hands Luke]

Jon had it coming. He has already seen mutiny. He has made many decisions that he knows many of his brothers dont like AND he knows many feel he is a turncloak. He should've known announcing his march to Ramsey would not go well, dumbass IMO.

[Addam of Hull]

Jon had it coming. He has already seen mutiny. He has made many decisions that he knows many of his brothers dont like AND he knows many feel he is a turncloak. He should've known announcing his march to Ramsey would not go well, dumbass IMO.

If by "many of his brothers" you mean, "four or five prancing jackanapes that refuse to adapt to changing circumstances", you might be partially right.

[Cold Hands Luke]

If by "many of his brothers" you mean, "four or five prancing jackanapes that refuse to adapt to changing circumstances", you might be partially right.

Those are just the ones close to him that have challenged his views on the wildlings. We have no idea how the crows east and west feel. I feel if we are aware of a few, there surely must be many more.

[Addam of Hull]

Those are just the ones close to him that have challenged his views on the wildlings. We have no idea how the crows east and west feel. I feel if we are aware of a few, there surely must be many more.

But aside from those specific few, we never really get a feeling of resentment from any of the other brothers. Jon actually stops to chat with numerous men of the Watch during his chapters; I think we'd know if Bowen's sentiments were widespread. IIRC, the only time we really get a statement from Jon on how the Watch feels about his policies is early on, when Bowen and the Stewards urge him to seal the gates. The Stewards are for it and the Rangers against it. We do get some hearsay from Bowen about how "the men" think he's a traitor and a warg, but Bowen isn't objective, so we can't really say how many people agree with him. I don't necessarily believe that Jon is popular with everyone but Bowen and his cohorts, but I also don't think that he was widely despised - certainly, I don't think a sizable enough of a population disagreed with him that he should have considered different policies. At any given time, here in the states at least, nearly half the people here aren't pleased with a decision being made by the President or Congress, but that doesn't inherently make it the wrong decision.

[Cold Hands Luke]

But aside from those specific few, we never really get a feeling of resentment from any of the other brothers. Jon actually stops to chat with numerous men of the Watch during his chapters; I think we'd know if Bowen's sentiments were widespread. IIRC, the only time we really get a statement from Jon on how the Watch feels about his policies is early on, when Bowen and the Stewards urge him to seal the gates. The Stewards are for it and the Rangers against it. We do get some hearsay from Bowen about how "the men" think he's a traitor and a warg, but Bowen isn't objective, so we can't really say how many people agree with him. I don't necessarily believe that Jon is popular with everyone but Bowen and his cohorts, but I also don't think that he was widely despised - certainly, I don't think a sizable enough of a population disagreed with him that he should have considered different policies. At any given time, here in the states at least, nearly half the people here aren't pleased with a decision being made by the President or Congress, but that doesn't inherently make it the wrong decision.

I'm not suggesting he had a large number against. My point is he should've known announcing he is riding south to attend personal matters and one could definitely argue mingling with the realm would not go over well at anytime, but when you take all other negativity in account, he should definitely known

[Ser Davos' finger bones]

Some of this I gleaned from reading the posts in this forum and some of these conclusions are my own. Here it goes:

I don't believe Jon's story is finished yet. GRRM has spent a lot of time and effort to develop his character over five books. To kill him now seemingly for shock value seems like a middle finger to the readers more worthy of an adolescent than the calculated machinations of someone who has been a professional writer since 1971. Another reason I don't believe Jon is finished: we aren't given enough information in the chapter in which Jon's stabbing takes place. If Jon's chapter had ended with "...and he fell dead in the snow" I would just accept that and move on, but it didn't.

Over the course of the books it seems as though GRRM has been walking a fine line with Jon, holding his cards close to the vest. Ygritte's "You know nothing, Jon Snow" is telling. Much about his character remains unspoken or unrevealed, the most prominent being his parentage. A number of readers on this board have commented that Jon's last chapter in Dance seems odd or hastily written. I read it as a writer having to explain something without giving too much away.

How will the aftermath of Jon's stabbing play out? I don't know. I'm just an onion. All that I can do is make your eyes water. But an onion will say this: I doubt Jon will

1) die for good

2) be resurrected by Melisandre

3) become a wight

4) warg into ghost and never come out

5) warg into Ghost and then warg back into his dead body

Why? Because these are (IMHO) the most obvious outcomes to the situation. I could be wrong. And if any of the above theories really do end up on the page they will be well handled.

For the case of Jon not being done for, I give you Jon's dream:

“I’m walking down this long empty hall. My voice echoes all around, but no one answers, so I walk faster, opening doors, shouting names. I don’t even know who I’m looking for. Most nights it’s my father, but sometimes it’s Robb instead, or my little sister Arya, or my uncle.”…“Do you ever find anyone in your dream?” Sam asked “No one. The castle is always empty… Even the ravens are gone from the rookery, and the stables are full of bones. That always scares me. I start to run then, throwing open doors, climbing the tower three steps at a time, screaming for someone, for anyone. And then I find myself in front of the door to the crypts. It’s black inside, and I can see the steps spiraling down. Somehow I know I have to go down there, but I don’t want to. I’m afraid of what might be waiting for me. The old Kings of Winter are down there, sitting on their thrones with stone wolves at their feet and iron swords across their laps, but it’s not them I’m afraid of. I scream that I’m not a Stark, that this isn’t my place, but it’s no good, I have to go anyway, so I start down, feeling the walls as I descend, with no torch to light the way. It gets darker and darker, until I want to scream."

The first time I read this I took it as foreshadowing that Jon would die and his body would be entombed in the crypts at Winterfell. I still do believe that this dream foreshadows a visit to Winterfell and a visit to the crypts specifically. Whether or not Jon is alive when he gets there I cannot say. My current reading of the dream is that he will be the first of the Stark children to return to Winterfell and that it will be a strange and terrible place when he does return. (Side note: I would really like to know what other people think of the stables being full of bones. That is an awfully specific description. Are Winterfell's current occupants going to eat all of the horses?) If Jon is alive when he arrives at Winterfell it seems to me that he is looking for help or guidance and as a last resort turns to the crypts, as if he suspects a horrible truth is there. That is my current interpretation.

Then there is this dream:

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow," an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she’d appeared.

In a literal interpretation of this dream I see it as foreshadowing Jon fighting wights at the Wall. The Eagle recognizes him. It could be Orell. The black ice could be his black clothes, which have accumulated so much ice and snow that they appear to be black ice, or he could be armored in obsidian. What this dream doesn't tell us is whether or not he is fighting wights by himself or if he is part of the watch still, defending the Wall. There is also no mention of the Others.

A less literal interpretation is that Jon will be a great, unstoppable force that slays many wights. If I were to take that interpretation further, I might say that Jon's black ice armor is not armor but dragon scales, the "sword" in his fist is dragon's fire and he is fighting the wights wearing Drogon's skin. (Side prediction: it could be that Jon, Arya and Sansa warg Dany's dragons at the end, echoing Aegon the conquerer's conquest of Westeros alongside his sisters)

Here is something that would be satisfying to see but probably won't happen:

As a way to give closure to Catelyn on the subject of Jon, have her pass her life on to him through the "kiss". Why? She believes all of her true-born children are lost to her, and by the end of the story they may be, if she gives the kiss of life to Jon then she becomes a kind of surrogate mother to him. Of course this depends on whether or not she can feel anything anymore and how she feels if and when she learns the truth of Jon's parentage (assuming R+L=J). And even if she feels nothing but malice for anything and the kiss is done strictly for pragmatic reasons then it would still complete their arc. But that's just my opinion. :dunno:

In conclusion, I'm almost positive that Jon's story is not done. GRRM has been too tight-lipped about Jon for too long and I really get the feeling that he has something yet to say.

Edited for grammar. Also, I can't find a way to fix the quotes. There seem to be a lot of extra characters that don't appear in the edit window.

[silentwanderer]

Assuming Jon is dead, the consensus of how he gets out of this is either he wargs into Ghost or Mel uses her magic to revive him.

I don't see how Mel would be able to, even if she does I'm not sure the wildlings are going to react to an undead as well as they would to a warg's second life.