Not worth it

[DragonSpawn]

Whatever

[Lost Umber]

Umm.. no. Just no.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

I find the 'reborn in the wrong part of the world'-idea an extremely appealing way to complement and bind the two characters. It also scores high on the symmetry and symbolism scales and from what we've seen from GRRM, these seem to be quite dear to him.

Of course it's still far out there, and I fear you'll get a storm of immediate dismissals just cause your first word was 'gender-swapping' ;-)

But you put in a lot of evidence to at least move that scenario firmly into the realm of possibility.

[MrsManderly]

Whoa. This is a bit out there, but you certainly did your homework!

I'm generally not a fan of the "swap" techniques - be they baby swaps, body swaps or otherwise - since they are too "deux and machina" for my taste and very cliched. Everything from soaps to preidctable Hollywood flics has used the swap technique way too many times. And we've seen it in ASOIAF just enough times also I reckon - any more baby swaps or Mel's glamours would I think go too far.

That said, this would be so out there that it would differ from the run of the mill and might just work...

[Lost Umber]

:D Thanks for that insightful comment :D

Is that "no" - because you're like me and don't want it to be true?

Or "no" because it's not possible? - which it is... all the ingrdients are there...

Or "no" - because it's not something GRRM would do? - which it is... given the Varamyr pro-logue...

You put a lot of effort into it to construct the background for the theory but i don't see enough basis, or link to ASOIAF to justify the prediction of Jon becoming Dany and vice versa. You started with the quote of " the moon was a black hole in the sky" in a Bran chapter and then proceeded to form tenuous links through celtic, druidic, and norse mythology to predict that there might be an upcoming gender swap between two main characters largely on the basis that GRRM has an interest in history and mythology. One of said characters was stabbed to unconciousness, the other one being in a "spot of trouble" thousands of miles away but with a reasonably fierce dragon beside her. The two have zero knowledge of each other and the thought of somehow soul shifting into the others body is getting into a "throw the book in the wastebin" territory.

I get your argument but I don't buy it and I don't think GRRM would do it. (I certainly hope not). I think he's trying to write a great believable fantasy story.

Of course it is possible in that within a fictional fantasy world, the writer can 'create' anything but I think this one is too far out there.

Sorry for my first flippant response... I think as we all wait impatiently for TWOW it's tough not to overthink the books and part of the fun of the forum is trying to guess what might happen. But some of the theories are so far out there that I can't take them even half seriously. This would be one.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

What he said... :agree: lol.

Sorry I'm not drawing a clear parallel between their situations. That's not to say TWoW wouldn't further set up a body switch via battle of mereen or dosh kaleen if Dany is taken there...

In any case I think there is some valuable info in your OP, especially the blood sacrifice of the king which seems to be important in ASoIaF. It possibly hints at Varys having royal blood as I can't imagine just any orphan kids balls will conjure a talking face... I really wanna know what that face said lol.

[JJtheCrow]

Anything is possible but this certainly isn't probable. Talk about a plot twist coming straight out of left field. I agree with the poster above, I would have to give up on the series if this happened.

[The Dragon has three heads]

^re read his conversation with illyrio. They are in it for the long game.

On topic, some tenuous links as stated, but George has used history as a template before re the RW, so its possible some mythology as religion and how that affected say Nordic/saxon/Celtic daily life could be used as inspiration...I think that was diplomatic enough.

[Alarum]

While the ultimate theory seems simply too complex for the general audience to grasp, I think the analysis raises a couple interesting questions. First, what is the ultimate significance of the anthill/wall scene? In my first read I completely breezed through the section as I'm sure most readers have but upon further speculation there are simply too many curious details and suggestions for the scene to be purely anecdotal. While there's definitely a peyote-in-the-desert kind of vibe going on in the chapter, I think it's unwise to just chalk up Dany's visions to mere hallucinations/projections brought on by malnourishment & likely infectious disease. There's substance to these visions and I believe GRRM included this as a necessary spiritual rite for Dany to achieve some manner of transcendence.

The anthill doesn't necessarily have to be the Fist. Other viable candidates could be the Heart of Winter (my vote), Bran & BR's cave, the Wall itself, Craster's place, the graves in the Frostfangs, Hardhome, Nightfort, etc. but I find it interesting that the ants are red/fire ants, described as being more meddlesome than the black ants. This could be alluding to the NW sharing the Wall with the Rahloo-worshipping Queens Men or it could be characterizing the WW's as having some red aspect to them (otherwise, why not just make the ants white? It is a fantasy world.). There's a chance that this could be alluding to some connection between the origin of R'hllor and WW/Long Night, as some have proposed.

Or it could be suggesting something else entirely but the point is there is something to that scene that I believe few have really delved into.

Something else your post recalls is the refrain, "Words are wind." While the phrase is obviously and frequently used to disparage comments as being flimsy in comparison with actions, if you are a supporter of the notion that the wind itself plays a prominent role in the story then the cliche may actually contain something more indicative than just that. Considering the prevalence of holy vows throughout the books and their society, there is undoubtedly a theological connection with one's words (other similar phrases: "before the old gods and the new"/"before gods and men"/Jacquen's multi-god oath/the Reeds' nature-based oath/etc.), harkening Osha's explanation to Bran of the gods answering his prayers via the wind. In short, yes, words are wind. And if there is actual divinity in wind then there is reciprocal divinity in words.

[Lost Umber]

The anthill doesn't necessarily have to be the Fist. Other viable candidates could be the Heart of Winter (my vote), Bran & BR's cave, the Wall itself, Craster's place, the graves in the Frostfangs, Hardhome, Nightfort, etc. but I find it interesting that the ants are red/fire ants, described as being more meddlesome than the black ants. This could be alluding to the NW sharing the Wall with the Rahloo-worshipping Queens Men or it could be characterizing the WW's as having some red aspect to them (otherwise, why not just make the ants white? It is a fantasy world.). There's a chance that this could be alluding to some connection between the origin of R'hllor and WW/Long Night, as some have proposed.

This really is making mountains out of mole hills.... ant hills.

[Rolex Baratheon]

I seriously dont want this to be true and I doubt it will, because I do not think this series is that symbolic.

[Alarum]

This really is making mountains out of mole hills.... ant hills.

Har!

[sourleaf]

Well, while this is interesting, when you started I really thought that you were going to say the Children of the Forest and the Others were the different "genders" and that the current rise of the Others is a swing toward their side of the cycle.

[Alarum]

• Druidic magic was very ritualistic and heavily steeped in ceremony. Rituals were performed at specific ceremonies, especially those having to do with the lunar and solar cycles. The changing of the seasons was an especially important ritual period for the druids, as was the middle point of each season. For a society heavily based on agriculture and hunting, their magic was geared towards the planting, harvest, and hunting cycles, seen in the festivals of Imbolc (Disting), Lammas (Loaf-Fest), Yule (Jul), Eostre (Ostara), Samhain (Winternights), Beltane (Walpurgis), Mabon, and Midsummer (Litha). Minor rituals were held at the new and full moons, and at important events during the year (birthing and death rituals, etc.) The new and full moon rituals occurred roughly every 14 days. The new moon ritual was considered the "inbreath" cycle of nature, when the energies flowed back into the Earth. The full moon ritual worked with the "outbreath" cycle, when the energies flowed from the earth back to the spirit. The two-week period of time involved for each cycle was called a "fortnight," (14 nights), and to this day, this is still a time reference used by the British.
  

Also, and this may be entirely superfluous, but could the name Nightfort be a simple inversion of "fortnight," alluding to the lunar cycle and the seeming depiction of the "kitchen" serving as some sort of lunar altar?

Literal skeptics, please move along ... nothing to see here.

[Ser Lepus]

Yes, I also think Daenerys would've had a happier life if Vyseris had abandoned the idea of reclaiming the Iron Throne and arranged her marriage with the nice son of some rich merchant prince.

Ned and Robb, on the other hand, both had little options but to rebel against the Iron Throne.

[andrew_]

Yes, I also think Daenerys would've had a happier life if Vyseris had abandoned the idea of reclaiming the Iron Throne and arranged her marriage with the nice son of some rich merchant prince.

Ned and Robb, on the other hand, both had little options but to rebel against the Iron Throne.

Actually they did have an option, this whole war started because Robert was jelous that Lyanna wanted to be with Rhaegar. She went willinglly with him and Robert and Ned like to believe she was "kidnapped".

Oh and coz Aegon was f'ed in the head

[Efilnikufesin]

Know I saw some of what you seem to have originally posted in Heresy, stick to your guns man, regardless of flack. I get plenty myself for some of my ideas, curious to see what your thought was.

[Hoid]

Know I saw some of what you seem to have originally posted in Heresy, stick to your guns man, regardless of flack. I get plenty myself for some of my ideas, curious to see what your thought was.

I'm with this guy.