The sins of the father -- Tywin edition

[nara]

Tywin Lannister has committed some horrific acts:

1. Humiliation of father’s mistress
   
   
2. Slaughter of Reynes and Tarbecks
   
   
3. Sacking of KL
   
   
4. Murder of Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon
   
   
5. Gang rape of Tysha
   
   
6. Red Wedding (assuming he had some influence there)
   

We’ve already seen in the case of #1 , #3, and #6, the terrible acts he committed have been revisited on his own family (Cersei’s Walk of Shame, the attack by Stannis, and the Purple Wedding). I realized with horror that this might mean that the rest of his sins will also be revisited on the Lannisters. I really don’t want to think of what this means for Cersei and the kids.

I’m turning to the forum to help me understand the likelihood of these things happening again. I’m really hoping that GRRM would not be that cruel, but some of you know his writing better than I do…

NOTE: I respectfully request that posters refrain from commenting about whether anyone “deserves” to have this happen to them or expressing joy if it does. That’s not the point of this post.

ETA: To clarify, I've accepted that they are likely to die--it's the brutality of the rapes and murders to which I'm referring.

[The Titan's Legitimate Son]

Well Maggy's prophecy would deal with Point 4 quite well, what with Cersei, Tommen and Myrcella (and Joffrey already) likely to die.

Point 2 would be a result of both the above, the death of Tywin and Kevan and the reformation of Jaime tearing House Lannister apart (Devan sounds like an alright bloke though so I hope he is caught up in this).

I think Tysha's gang rape arc has ultimately been dealt with, with his death at the hands of Tyrion, who ripped him a new arsehole.

[Beets]

It is my personal crack-theory that House Lannister will die out, with the last of its members lying in a pool of their own blood, howling "CURSE THE TASTE OF MY OWN MEDICINE!" :devil: It would be very fitting (poor Reynes, poor Tarbecks) and they'd probably have to add another verse to the Reynes of Castamere or change it to the Lannisters of Casterly Rock. Even if that's not as catchy.

As for the rest of them... I'm really not sure. I'm certain the Reynes of Castamere will continue to be a plot point, and I'd really like to see it used in this scenario.

[nara]

Well Maggy's prophecy would deal with Point 4 quite well, what with Cersei, Tommen and Myrcella (and Joffrey already) likely to die.

I agree with you that the prediction addresses #2. It's really the brutality of Elia and the kids' deaths that has me concerned.

[Ragnorak]

Between Dany and Aegon (and maybe even Stannis) I think the chances of KL getting sacked are probably very high.

[Winter's Knight]

You forgot that Tywin's hired thugs cost Jaime his right hand.

[Fire Eater]

I agree with you that the prediction addresses #2. It's really the brutality of Elia and the kids' deaths that has me concerned.

Cersei did endure marital rape from Robert. Just add her death and the deaths of her children before her and you got the scenario.

Tywin pillages the riverlands and takes Harrenhal and Darry with an attack on a camp where Edmure was raising an army.

This is repaid when Robb's forces invade and pillage the Westerlands; capturing several of the Lannisters' gold mines, taking Ashemark and the Crag and Lady Mormont driving thousands of captured cattle to the riverlands and they destroy the camp where the Lannisters were raising another army.

[KittyKilldare]

Tywin Lannister has committed some horrific acts:

1. Humiliation of father’s mistress
   
   
2. Slaughter of Reynes and Tarbecks
   
   
3. Sacking of KL
   
   
4. Murder of Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon
   
   
5. Gang rape of Tysha
   
   
6. Red Wedding (assuming he had some influence there)
   

We’ve already seen in the case of #1 , #3, and #6, the terrible acts he committed have been revisited on his own family (Cersei’s Walk of Shame, the attack by Stannis, and the Purple Wedding). I realized with horror that this might mean that the rest of his sins will also be revisited on the Lannisters. I really don’t want to think of what this means for Cersei and the kids.

I’m turning to the forum to help me understand the likelihood of these things happening again. I’m really hoping that GRRM would not be that cruel, but some of you know his writing better than I do…

NOTE: I respectfully request that posters refrain from commenting about whether anyone “deserves” to have this happen to them or expressing joy if it does. That’s not the point of this post.

ETA: To clarify, I've accepted that they are likely to die--it's the brutality of the rapes and murders to which I'm referring.

Your list of Tywins sins got me to thinking...about number 4.

As it stands, Aegon, who I do personally believe a legitimate Targaryaen, survives the sack of Kings Landing. We have also seen prophecies in the series not be fulfilled due to other interference (Drogo's son being the stallion who mounts the world) Could this leave an opening for one of Cersei's children to survive? Perhaps Doran will pull the switcharoo, since he already knows the Martell party will be amushed on their way to Kings Landing. We already know she has a cousin for a handmaid Tyrion specifically picked out because of the resemblance....and, if she is bandaged as I assume Mrycella would have to be with her face being so wounded, who would know the difference? (Think similar to the cask Tyrion wore on his) Noone, until the bandages are removed, and from what we saw when Tyrion was wounded, they wanted to leave the cast on as long as possible to prevent scarring. If Myrcella is going to have a hideous scar from the attack, they are probably doing everything they can to minimize how hideous it is....after all, she is a princess....

[Jaime's Wench]

*puts fingers in ears* Lalalalalalalalalala

Don't want to hear about how Tywin's wretchedness could have even more rammifications for my poor Jaime and his two poor remaining children...

But unfortunately, you are probably right..

[Pellaeon]

I don't think so, Tywin wasn't only horrible, there was a time when he bring 20 years of prosper to Westeros or his time as loving husband, if his bad actions fall on his children his good have to

[CJ McLannister]

Tywin certainly has enough blood on his hands, but I think the thing that caused him the most pain was Jaime's rejection of becoming his successor. He knows that everything he built will be destroyed by his children. His death at the hands of one of them is just a step along that path.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Yes, Tywins actions are going to be repaid. Let's recap who is out to get them:

1. Aegon, JonCon and the Golden Company. At least JonCon goes for complete extermination.

2. Dany. Dragons, Fire and Blood.

3. Dorne. Wants Fire and Blood. A bit of rape and murder, a bit of extermination.

4. The BWB. They want justice and revenge. With the shit that Tywin did, that's going to be a lot of bloodshed. Maybe they would spare some children thrice removed, but only maybe.

5. Stannis. Treason, rebellion and a whole bunch of other crimes. Everybody involved will lose his head or burn and the children will be disinherited and maybe sent to the Wall or the Silent Sisters. At least.

6. The North. Manderley fed the Freys to their relatives. Pretty example for the vengeance they will claim.

7. The Riverlands. Like the North, but they suffered worse and are going to be even more pissed.

8. The Vale. Fed up with Lannister shit, also emotionally close to the North and the Riverlands.

9. The Faith. They are already whipping up a crusade against Freys and Lannisters. Just add a little bit of heresy and they'll conduct some autodafés in Casterly Rock.

10. The Tyrells. Okay, they may be the only ones that would be satisfied with the odd murder. And it was Cersei that pissed them off, not Tywin.

11. The Ironborn. They are only in for the plunder.

So, half the world is out to get nasty with the Lannisters. We should get a betting pool running who destroys the Rock.

[nara]

Yes, Tywins actions are going to be repaid. Let's recap who is out to get them:

1. Aegon, JonCon and the Golden Company. At least JonCon goes for complete extermination.

2. Dany. Dragons, Fire and Blood.

3. Dorne. Wants Fire and Blood. A bit of rape and murder, a bit of extermination.

4. The BWB. They want justice and revenge. With the shit that Tywin did, that's going to be a lot of bloodshed. Maybe they would spare some children thrice removed, but only maybe.

5. Stannis. Treason, rebellion and a whole bunch of other crimes. Everybody involved will lose his head or burn and the children will be disinherited and maybe sent to the Wall or the Silent Sisters. At least.

6. The North. Manderley fed the Freys to their relatives. Pretty example for the vengeance they will claim.

7. The Riverlands. Like the North, but they suffered worse and are going to be even more pissed.

8. The Vale. Fed up with Lannister shit, also emotionally close to the North and the Riverlands.

9. The Faith. They are already whipping up a crusade against Freys and Lannisters. Just add a little bit of heresy and they'll conduct some autodafés in Casterly Rock.

10. The Tyrells. Okay, they may be the only ones that would be satisfied with the odd murder. And it was Cersei that pissed them off, not Tywin.

11. The Ironborn. They are only in for the plunder.

So, half the world is out to get nasty with the Lannisters. We should get a betting pool running who destroys the Rock.

yikes, that's a long list. However Manderly doesn't hold a grudge against Lannisters--right? Tywin kept his promise to return his son. Or did I miss some facetiousness there?

[Lady Wylla Manderly]

yikes, that's a long list. However Manderly doesn't hold a grudge against Lannisters--right? Tywin kept his promise to return his son. Or did I miss some facetiousness there?

A Dance with Dragons? Frey pies? Ser Davos' visit? I don't want to get into the detail incase you missed that part and would like to read it again =)

But yes, it doesn't look very good for the Lannister's. I have a wonderful image in my head where decades from now, people of Westeros sing about "Lions of Casterly" with the Rains of Castamere melody.

[nara]

A Dance with Dragons? Frey pies? Ser Davos' visit? I don't want to get into the detail incase you missed that part and would like to read it again =)

I was referring to this part of ADWD:

Ser Hosteen turned on the fat man. "...Where are my kin, Manderly? Tell me that. Your guests, who brought your son back to you." "His bones, you mean." Manderly speared a chunk of ham with his dagger. "I recall them well. Rhaegar of th round shoulders, with his glib tongue. Bold Ser Jared, so swift to draw his steel. Symond the spymaster, always clinking coins. They brought home Wendel's bones. It was Tywin Lannister who returned Wylis to me, safe and whole, as he had promised. A man of his word, Lord Tywin, Seven save his soul."

From this passage I got the impression that, although he fully supports the North and will fight the Lannisters, he does not seek vengeance. I don't think there are Lannister pies in our future.

[SeanF]

Manderly has no personal grievance against the Lannisters. He's getting medieval on the Freys though.

[SeanF]

Clearly, it doesn't look good for Tywin's descendants (apart from Tyrion) but there are hundreds of Lannisters. I doubt if all of them will get wiped out.

And if Dany wins, and if Tyrion is one of her advisers, he'll get Casterly Rock, regardless of what the Martells and others want.

[nara]

Your list of Tywins sins got me to thinking...about number 4.

As it stands, Aegon, who I do personally believe a legitimate Targaryaen, survives the sack of Kings Landing. We have also seen prophecies in the series not be fulfilled due to other interference (Drogo's son being the stallion who mounts the world) Could this leave an opening for one of Cersei's children to survive? Perhaps Doran will pull the switcharoo, since he already knows the Martell party will be amushed on their way to Kings Landing. We already know she has a cousin for a handmaid Tyrion specifically picked out because of the resemblance....and, if she is bandaged as I assume Mrycella would have to be with her face being so wounded, who would know the difference? (Think similar to the cask Tyrion wore on his) Noone, until the bandages are removed, and from what we saw when Tyrion was wounded, they wanted to leave the cast on as long as possible to prevent scarring. If Myrcella is going to have a hideous scar from the attack, they are probably doing everything they can to minimize how hideous it is....after all, she is a princess....

This would be a sad and interesting parallel to Cat's death while believing her kids to be dead (except Sansa) when in fact, most are alive.

[Lady Wylla Manderly]

I was referring to this part of ADWD:

Ser Hosteen turned on the fat man. "...Where are my kin, Manderly? Tell me that. Your guests, who brought your son back to you." "His bones, you mean." Manderly speared a chunk of ham with his dagger. "I recall them well. Rhaegar of th round shoulders, with his glib tongue. Bold Ser Jared, so swift to draw his steel. Symond the spymaster, always clinking coins. They brought home Wendel's bones. It was Tywin Lannister who returned Wylis to me, safe and whole, as he had promised. A man of his word, Lord Tywin, Seven save his soul."

From this passage I got the impression that, although he fully supports the North and will fight the Lannisters, he does not seek vengeance. I don't think there are Lannister pies in our future.

He was talking to the Frey's, though. The people whom he promised the hands of his granddaughters (and we know how that one worked out. xD) "When treating with liars, even an honest man must lie."

Manderly has no personal grievance against the Lannisters. He's getting medieval on the Freys though.

I don't know, I kind of got the impression that he intends to go medieval on everyone who fought them, but I could be wrong. At any rate, Lannister's have enough enemies without the Manderly's.

[Lion of Judah]

His greatest sin was his outright denial that Tyrion was more like him than any of his other children. It cost him in the end.