More Middle East Fun

[Robin Of House Hill]

There are elements on both sides that realize they would be unnecessary if there was peace. Hamas decides to fire off their pretty ineffective rockets, knowing that Israel will retaliate with greater force, killing men, women and children, giving Hamas a propaganda victory and greater support amongst Arabs.

[Samalander]

First off, I'm sick and tires of hearing that all the poor Palestinians ever wanted is their "freedom" from Israeli "oppression". Prior to 1967 they were "free" of us. That didn't stop them from killing Jews with relish.

1) and i heard briefly something about shooting off rounds in Syria. .

2) but as long as Israel remains in the middel east this bullshit is only going to continue to see more innocent deaths.

1) They fired into Israel. That hadn't happened in decades. We can't let that just pass.

2) So...we should just pack up and leave?

1) Samalandar, Yoadm, your minimization of the civilian casualties in Gaza -- which are far far far greater than Israeli casualties (both civilian and soldier combined -- are fucking disgusting.

2) Samalander posted that it's more Hamas' responsibility for civilian deaths, not the people dropping the bombs on them. I'm beginning to think that the "Hamas deliberetly puts its rocket launchers in civilian areas to demonize Israel when they get attacked" is a disgusting myth.

3) Why? One of the motives for Hamas to keep electing is their loss of support in Palestine but, after the recent onslaught in Gaza started, their popularity has particularly gone up. People who actively hold their civilians hostage by endangering them aren't likely to gain much popularity. This is all moot anyway as you're using it as a way to justify Israel's slaughter of them.

4) Furthermore, you're extending this logic to attacks on things like media stations, which also killed civilians, including children,

5) how do you possibly begin to justify that?

6) Israeli/western media tends not to cover the Palestinian side of the conflict accurately.

1) The fact that one side has more civilian casualties than the other is not a good indicator...of anything.

Maybe a better indicator would the ratio between civilian casualities and combatants. Hamas, thus far, in this round of violence has killed 100% civilians. I guarentee out ratio is better than that.

2) The IDF has special "soft" bombs that they drop on roofs to make noise and little damage, to tell people to leave before the big bombs come. What other army in the world would even bother?!

3) Hamas doesn't "keep getting elected". They got elected once and set up a theocracy.

4) Who the fu#% thinks enemy radio stations are immune in a time of frigg$%& war?!?!

5) see 4. We do give warning in advance in such cases. That said, all civilian casualties are regrettable (do I need to start cutting/pasting that line, or will you take my word for it this time?)

6) They do not cover it extensively, that is true. Still, more reliable than Hamas propaganda.

[Robin Of House Hill]

First off, I'm sick and tires of hearing that all the poor Palestinians ever wanted is their "freedom" from Israeli "oppression". Prior to 1967 they were "free" of us. That didn't stop them from killing Jews with relish.

Prior to the mass immigration of Jews into Palestine, leading to the formation of Israel in 1948., they were "free" of you. After that, not so much.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Lorien,

Given what happened to Jews in Europe I can't imagine why they may have wanted to emigrate to some other local where they would have the right to create a Government and defend themselves.

[mormont]

Then If I said so, I apologize, although I seem to lack permission to access your link.

Oops. Fixed that. :)

Although I see that you keep bringing up the NI comparison. In NI, the IRA was bypassed, was it not?

Er... no. That's sort of the whole point. (Do you perhaps mean that negotiations between the IRA and Unionists were initially conducted through the Irish and UK governments? Otherwise I can make no sense of this statement.)

Here, we are speaking about direct negotiations with Hamas, the governing, elected body.

Not necessarily. There are numerous bodies able and willing to play the facilitating role: the UN, EU, US, Russia, or some combination of these, for a start.

That's the rub, it is a unique situation. Nations did not negotiate with groups sworn to their destruction.

No. But people negotiated with people who'd been doing their very best to kill them, eradicate them, even. And that's the important bit here.

[Samalander]

Prior to the mass immigration of Jews into Palestine, leading to the formation of Israel in 1948., they were "free" of you. After that, not so much.

You really want to go there? Again?

Fine.

- Palestine is a made up word by some Roman emperor who wanted to sever the ties of the Jews to the region.

- When was it decided that the land between the Jordan and the sea is Arab land? Please, give me a date.

- Where was that decision codified? Please, point me to that place.

- We were willing to accept the UN plan for partition. They decided it was a better idea to try and kill all of us. They failed.

I am truly sorry and ashamed for our disgusting habit of clinging to life.

- There were Jews in Palestine way before 1948. Not that many, but they were there.

[Robin Of House Hill]

Lorien,

Given what happened to Jews in Europe I can't imagine why they may have wanted to emigrate to some other local where they would have the right to create a Government and defend themselves.

As sometimes happens in such situations, the oppressed became the oppressors. There is no simple solution to the problem and so many years of bloodshed that any solution short of one side annihilating the other, will probably fail.

You really want to go there? Again?

Fine.

- Palestine is a made up word by some Roman emperor who wanted to sever the ties of the Jews to the region.

- When was it decided that the land between the Jordan and the sea is Arab land? Please, give me a date.

- Where was that decision codified? Please, point me to that place.

- We were willing to accept the UN plan for partition. They decided it was a better idea to try and kill all of us. They failed.

I am truly sorry and ashamed for our disgusting habit of clinging to life.

- There were Jews in Palestine way before 1948. Not that many, but they were there.

I am not claiming that Palestine was ever designated an Arab land. What I am claiming is that you imported one hell of a lot of people who had never lived there, displaced the indigenous population and then, "accepted", that load of UN bollocks to steal part of it. Did you not expect that those you stole it from, would object?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Lorien,

The UN partition in 1948 gave majority jewish areas to jews and majority Arab areas to Arabs. The Arabs then attacked the majority Jewish areas.

[Samalander]

I am not claiming that Palestine was ever designated an Arab land. What I am claiming is that you imported one hell of a lot of people who had never lived there, displaced the indigenous population and then, "accepted", that load of UN bollocks to steal part of it. Did you not expect that those you stole it from, would object?

Stealing implies ownership! Sure, a lot of individuals lost land and property. What of it? The Arab countries kicked out all the Jews that had lived there. They also lost land and property. It is a whole different thing to imply a country had been stolen. For that, one has to show some kind of right to the country in the first place. Given that history has recorded our previous ownership and sovereignty in the region, we are just reclaiming what is rightfully ours. I do not accept the "indigenous" claim. Yes, they lived there for a while. Does that make them "indigenous"? Wouldn't the very definition of Arab mean they are indigenous to the Saudi Arabia region? By the way, who can tell me how the region was called before that Roman emperor stepped in? It was Judea! As in, Jew! So who is the real indigenous people here, I ask you?

[Robin Of House Hill]

Ser Scot,

True, but if enough dead people get to vote in Chicago, they can become the majority, as well. Let's look at the demographics of the area from the 16th century on. I even selected a source that couldn't be accused of being pro-Arab.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Lorien,

What was the basis to deny Jews the right to emigrate to Palestine, if they so desired?

[Robin Of House Hill]

Stealing implies ownership! Sure, a lot of individuals lost land and property. What of it? The Arab countries kicked out all the Jews that had lived there. They also lost land and property. It is a whole different thing to imply a country had been stolen. For that, one has to show some kind of right to the country in the first place. Given that history has recorded our previous ownership and sovereignty in the region, we are just reclaiming what is rightfully ours. I do not accept the "indigenous" claim. Yes, they lived there for a while. Does that make them "indigenous"? Wouldn't the very definition of Arab mean they are indigenous to the Saudi Arabia region? By the way, who can tell me how the region was called before that Roman emperor stepped in? It was Judea! As in, Jew! So who is the real indigenous people here, I ask you?

Reclaiming what was rightfully yours? Whose was it before you got there, the first time?

[Robin Of House Hill]

Lorien,

What was the basis to deny Jews the right to emigrate to Palestine, if they so desired?

What legally recognized authority authorized it? A lot of people come into this country without authorization. That doesn't give them the right to be here.

[Maltaran]

What legally recognized authority authorized it?

I believe it was the British mandate, after the Balfour Declaration.

[Arthmail]

Arthmail,

So, it's cool to plant a kaytusha battery next to a block of resiential housing because they can't protect the battery, that they aren't aiming at military targets in the first place, any other way? that's a mighty long leash you're giving to Hamas.

No. But does it make it any cooler to kill civilians? I mean, what is your scale or right and wrong here

You really want to go there? Again?

Fine.

- Palestine is a made up word by some Roman emperor who wanted to sever the ties of the Jews to the region.

- When was it decided that the land between the Jordan and the sea is Arab land? Please, give me a date.

- Where was that decision codified? Please, point me to that place.

- We were willing to accept the UN plan for partition. They decided it was a better idea to try and kill all of us. They failed.

I am truly sorry and ashamed for our disgusting habit of clinging to life.

- There were Jews in Palestine way before 1948. Not that many, but they were there.

1)Go look at Wiki quickly for the first one. During the time of Ramses the fucking III there is mention of a people in the area called the Pallistu. It wasn't a word made up by some Roman emperor. And even if it was, that doesn't really change the current situation.

2/3)When was it decided that it was Israeli land? Oh, thats right, 1948. Previous to that it had been held by the British, before that the Ottoman Turks, who held it from 1516. So when was there last a Jewish state there? I mean, Muslims controlled it for 1300 years. I sort of wish my family could go home and reclaim their rights to lands given to them after 1300 years.

4)This is simplistic, but it fits into your world view, so whatever. But please, put the violin away.

5)Sure there were Jews way before 1948. There were also Scotsman in Ireland. Perhaps we should have simply taken that over.

Here's the thing. I don't deny the right of Israel to exist. I don't deny its right to defend itself. But I, personally, will never support the killing of civilians no matter what the situation is. It's a simple moral choice. You can hand wring about this or that, and boo-hoo, don't we have the right to exist as well, but its a dodge. The key point is that women and children are dying, and if Israel wants to stop having to put up with these attacks, hard liners like Netenyahu and others need to be put into the military graveyard, along with Hamas, and rational people need to come to the table. Because honestly, no one is going away on either side. And nothing is helped by the equivalency game. Two wrongs do not make a right. I know its far more complicated than that, but its a simple truth.

Edit: Ser Scott: How do you manage your catholic/christian beliefs with the killing of innocents? On either side. You defend Israel more than Palestein, and both sides have casualties, but there is little comparison in the actual numbers.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Lorien,

So, Jews should be ejected from Palestine as "illegal immigrants"? What happens to the non-moveable property they've built? What about Jews who's families were in Palestine well before 1948? Where do these people go after they are deported in the millions?

[Saci Targaryen]

http://latuffcartoons.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/netanyahu-profiting-politically-from-the-gaza-dead.gif

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Arthmail,

Killing innocents is wrong. Standing by and allowing innocents to die by inaction is wrong. Its a thorny problem. I don't have a simple answer. I'd love it if beligerants would agree to place and weapons that will not threaten civilians, but that's a pipedream.

[Samalander]

Reclaiming what was rightfully yours? Whose was it before you got there, the first time?

Those guys are not around to assert their claim.

What legally recognized authority authorized it? A lot of people come into this country without authorization. That doesn't give them the right to be here.

Oh yeah, and who authorized the Arabs to move in?

Anyway, the facts show it was first the Ottaman Empire, a subject which is better broached with Datepalm and Yoadm rather than me, and after that the British Mandate, which did do a lot in their power to keep Jews from entering (and considering where those Jews were coming from, was not very nice of them).

Go look at Wiki quickly for the first one. During the time of Ramses the fucking III there is mention of a people in the area called the Pallistu. It wasn't a word made up by some Roman emperor. And even if it was, that doesn't really change the current situation.

I am not an ignoramus.The Pallistu have nothing and absolutely no connection to today's "Palestinians".

They were already extinct when the Roman emperor found that reference, bastardized it and renamed the whole region.

[Saci Targaryen]

Yo, you guys are going way back in history. Under that logic, the U.S should return Manhattan to the Iroquois.