Heresy 26

[Black Crow]

I wonder why Sam and Grenn didn't take the Other's sword. It was torn out of his hands so unless it was mentally linked to him in someway it doesn't seem it would have melted. Grenn had the presence of mind to grab the dagger from the Other puddle and you'd think taking the very strange sword of your enemy would be a really good idea.

The fact they didn't demonstrates it wasn't there. Back in the prologue to AGoT, Will recognised the sword wasn't metal and in discussion with the artist Tommy Patterson GRRM did confirm it was ice - and will therefore have melted - which is why its difficult not to wonder about the original sword called Ice.

[Tyryan Lannister]

I wonder why Sam and Grenn didn't take the Other's sword. It was torn out of his hands so unless it was mentally linked to him in someway it doesn't seem it would have melted. Grenn had the presence of mind to grab the dagger from the Other puddle and you'd think taking the very strange sword of your enemy would be a really good idea.

From the way that GRRM describes the swords, it seems that they are made of a similar substance to what the Others are made of, and if the Others are indeed some sort of frozen coalesced mist and the swords are as well, then I don't find it such a stretch to see the sword requiring the Other in order to be intact.

But yeah, outside of something like this/like what you mentioned, no idea what would have happened to it or anything.

Maybe Grenn did try to find it but couldn't and Sam didn't notice that he was looking for it?

[Profion]

I´ve always wondered that Ice would be a cool name for a sword made of never melting Ice, and would tie the Starks to the Others. Perhaps The Kings of Winter did have a Sword of never melting Ice that was lost/taken when they become Kings of the North (and lost the "winte" power) and they´ve gained/made one sword of Valirian Steel (a token of power of the Red lot perhaps?) and called it Ice like the legends of the sword of The House Stark.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

It didn't occur to me until I read Black Crows recap cap, but many times we've talked about the white mist and how it may be one form that others take. It seems odd to me that the Other that confronted Grenn and Sam was riding a horse. Why ride a horse when you can ride the wind as a mist? Perhaps the change isn't voluntary. White mist during the day, physical entity at night? I wonder if that Other is truly dead as well. He definitely leaves a puddle but also a white mist.

[FittleLinger]

It didn't occur to me until I read Black Crows recap cap, but many times we've talked about the white mist and how it may be one form that others take. It seems odd to me that the Other that confronted Grenn and Sam was riding a horse. Why ride a horse when you can ride the wind as a mist? Perhaps the change isn't voluntary. White mist during the day, physical entity at night? I wonder if that Other is truly dead as well. He definitely leaves a puddle but also a white mist.

Yes, this was something that occurred to me as well - that the other may not be really dead, or that others can't really die in that sense. And we know how Sam always says he is no Slayer when the other guys joke around - well, maybe he really is not.

[Little Wing]

I feel so dumb for what I'm about to ask, but I need a bit of clarification: Bael takes a Stark daughter away and when he delivers her back with the baby, it's a Sidhe/human baby. So, did Bael give the Stark daughter to an Other or is he himself one? I'm assuming the former. Interesting if Rhaegar recreated the Beal story with Lyanna, he might have known about the story seeing as how he liked to read and was a singer. Did he know about the Others-Stark connection as well? :o

[FittleLinger]

I feel so dumb for what I'm about to ask, but I need a bit of clarification: Bael takes a Stark daughter away and when he delivers her back with the baby, it's a Sidhe/human baby. So, did Bael give the Stark daughter to an Other or is he himself one? I'm assuming the former. Interesting if Rhaegar recreated the Beal story with Lyanna, he might have known about the story seeing as how he liked to read and was a singer. Did he know about the Others-Stark connection as well? :o

Where are you getting that the baby was an "Other" baby? Nothing such is mentioned in the legend, and the baby becomes the new Lord Stark, so I think it would be mentioned that the baby/new Lord Stark was somehow odd/inhuman?

Or maybe you're mixing this legend up with the Night's King, who presumably married an Other? Or maybe in the couple of Heresy pages I missed you somehow made a case of Bael's baby being an Other for some reason?

[Black Crow]

Bael playing swopsie with the baby is something which hadn't occurred to me. I certainly think that the first priority was to ensure the continuation of the Stark line in Winterfell, and that this resulted in a strain of Sidhe blood being introduced or perhaps re-introduced remembering the Night King's child, but whether this was through a half Sidhe baby or a full Sidhe changeling I don't know. Either way I think this is where the warging comes from (along with the descendants of all those other terrible half human children) and why Bolton skinned the boy after he had grown up to be Stark of Winterfell.

There is another twist to the Rhaegar/Lyanna connection though which I'll present once I've had a chance to write it up, but if you're intrigued try googling Lug and Deichtine

[Little Wing]

This is from Black Crow's introduction in this thread:

If the Others are indeed an icy version of the Sidhe – and all of the evidence points very firmly to such a conclusion, then we also see the Stark connection, for GRRM took some pains to tell us the tale of Bael the Bard and the winter rose – the same rose seen growing from the Wall and telling us that Jon Snow has Sidhe blood in his veins.

So, I just need some clarification on that...

[FittleLinger]

I feel so dumb for what I'm about to ask, but I need a bit of clarification: Bael takes a Stark daughter away and when he delivers her back with the baby, it's a Sidhe/human baby. So, did Bael give the Stark daughter to an Other or is he himself one? I'm assuming the former. Interesting if Rhaegar recreated the Beal story with Lyanna, he might have known about the story seeing as how he liked to read and was a singer. Did he know about the Others-Stark connection as well? :o

Bael playing swopsie with the baby is something which hadn't occurred to me. I certainly think that the first priority was to ensure the continuation of the Stark line in Winterfell, and that this resulted in a strain of Sidhe blood being introduced or perhaps re-introduced remembering the Night King's child, but whether this was through a half Sidhe baby or a full Sidhe changeling I don't know. Either way I think this is where the warging comes from (along with the descendants of all those other terrible half human children) and why Bolton skinned the boy after he had grown up to be Stark of Winterfell.

There is another twist to the Rhaegar/Lyanna connection though which I'll present once I've had a chance to write it up, but if you're intrigued try googling Lug and Deichtine

Can you please explain where are you getting that Bael's baby introduced or reintroduced Others blood in the Stark bloodline?

[Little Wing]

Bael playing swopsie with the baby is something which hadn't occurred to me. I certainly think that the first priority was to ensure the continuation of the Stark line in Winterfell, and that this resulted in a strain of Sidhe blood being introduced or perhaps re-introduced remembering the Night King's child, but whether this was through a half Sidhe baby or a full Sidhe changeling I don't know. Either way I think this is where the warging comes from (along with the descendants of all those other terrible half human children) and why Bolton skinned the boy after he had grown up to be Stark of Winterfell.

There is another twist to the Rhaegar/Lyanna connection though which I'll present once I've had a chance to write it up, but if you're intrigued try googling Lug and Deichtine

Will do, thanks for the links and the analysis from the beginning of this thread, I forget details, so it was helpful.

[FittleLinger]

This is from Black Crow's introduction in this thread:

If the Others are indeed an icy version of the Sidhe – and all of the evidence points very firmly to such a conclusion, then we also see the Stark connection, for GRRM took some pains to tell us the tale of Bael the Bard and the winter rose – the same rose seen growing from the Wall and telling us that Jon Snow has Sidhe blood in his veins.

So, I just need some clarification on that...

Oh OK, then I need clarification on that too, we're on the same page. How are we assuming that the blue winter rose means Others' blood? We have no evidence of Jon in particular having anything to do with Others at this point, neither do we have any evidence of Bael's baby having Other blood. What we do have is that winter rose, in both cases of Bael and Lyanna, symbolizes Stark maidens / She Wolves of Winterfell.

[Black Crow]

Where are you getting that the baby was an "Other" baby? Nothing such is mentioned in the legend, and the baby becomes the new Lord Stark, so I think it would be mentioned that the baby/new Lord Stark was somehow odd/inhuman?

Its a suggestion based on the fact that although Ygritte knows of him as a Wildling, there's a suspicion he's not, especially given the disappearing into the sidhe hill below Winterfell. As I've just noted Bolton's behaviour in flaying him also sounds as though there was something odd going on.

Here's the Tam Lin story alluded to:

The woods of Carterhaugh [in the Scottish borders] are guarded by Tam Lin, who demands payment of all maidens who pass through, of their virginity. A maiden named Janet travels to Carterhaugh and picks a rose, causing Tam Lin to appear. He questions her presence, to which she relies that Carterhaugh belongs to her father. Nevertheless the inevitable happens and she returns home pregnant, much to the concern of the household. She states that her lover is elfin, and then returns to Carterhaugh, once again encountering Tam Lin. He reveals he is not elfin, but a mortal captured by the queen of Faerie, and that he may be sacrificied to hell as part of the faerie tithe. He then details how she can save him, if she will undergo a trial on Halloween night. She must pull him from his horse as the Sidhe go trooping over Carter Bar, and hold onto him as he is transformed into various beasts, and when he regains his own naked shape she must cover him with her green mantle and he will be free. This she succeeds in doing to the annoyance of the Queen of Faerie, but as they have played it by the rules they are free to depart.

The ballad itself can be found at:

http://tam-lin.org/front.html

There are obvious differences, but its equally obvious where GRRM's story of Bael comes from and you'll also note the skinchanging.

[In5anity]

First of all, thanks for all the theory in the heresy threads. At first I wanted to read them all before posting here the first time, but the time it took me to get through the first one was enough for 2 new heresy threads, so I fear I had to skip a bit. :D So sorry, if this has already been mentioned and it doesn't really fit into the mythology discussion but I feel this is the right thread for it since it deals with the potential dark secret on the stark dynasty:

Has anyone else wondered about the Bolton sigil and the whole flaying thing? Did Martin really just want us to see, that they're cruel evil bastards or is there more behind this whole flaying thing. I mean, the Boltons are the old enemy of the Starks and we assume this whole skinchaning thing is connected to some dark secret. Isn't it an interesting coincidence (or perhaps no coincidence at all) that the skinchangers enemies pull the skin of their victims and say "a flayed enemy holds no secrets"? Could there be more behind it than a simple method of torturing enemies? Could the Boltons know (or have known) about the Stark secret and use (or have used) the flaying as a symbol of their fight against the skinchangers like "You can't change your skin anymore if it hangs in my basement"?! Perhaps if there is some dark secret, we really will know about it but through the wildlings, the CotF, the three eyed crow but through the Boltons.

Well, if this has already been mentioned and/or discussed, sorry for the interuption ;)

[evita mgfs]

Part of your story reminds me very much of Menelaus on his journey home from Troy, where he had to hold down the Old Man of the Sea, Proteus, who could change his form from a Lion, a Tower of Flame, a waterfall, a pig, a leopard, and leafy tree. Menelaus must sleep with the seals, use something in his nose to quit the foul smell, and sneak up on Proteus while he sleeps.

Proteus then advises him on what he must do to appease the gods who have becalmed the waters, keeping him from returning to Sparta. Proteus also tells his his brother Agamemnon is dead, which he did not know.

In Ireland, they talked a lot of Silkies, so I love the seal stories now.

[FittleLinger]

First of all, thanks for all the theory in the heresy threads. At first I wanted to read them all before posting here the first time, but the time it took me to get through the first one was enough for 2 new heresy threads, so I fear I had to skip a bit. :D So sorry, if this has already been mentioned and it doesn't really fit into the mythology discussion but I feel this is the right thread for it since it deals with the potential dark secret on the stark dynasty:

Has anyone else wondered about the Bolton sigil and the whole flaying thing? Did Martin really just want us to see, that they're cruel evil bastards or is there more behind this whole flaying thing. I mean, the Boltons are the old enemy of the Starks and we assume this whole skinchaning thing is connected to some dark secret. Isn't it an interesting coincidence (or perhaps no coincidence at all) that the skinchangers enemies pull the skin of their victims and say "a flayed enemy holds no secrets"? Could there be more behind it than a simple method of torturing enemies? Could the Boltons know (or have known) about the Stark secret and use (or have used) the flaying as a symbol of their fight against the skinchangers like "You can't change your skin anymore if it hangs in my basement"?! Perhaps if there is some dark secret, we really will know about it but through the wildlings, the CotF, the three eyed crow but through the Boltons.

Well, if this has already been mentioned and/or discussed, sorry for the interuption ;)

Hello and welcome, In5anity.

Yes, it has been discussed, but so have been most of the heresy topics, so it's always worth re-discussing.

Yes, there have been such speculations. And most specifically that the Boltons were "jealous" of their neighbors' the Starks unique skinchanging ability, so they were trying to replicate it by literally "wearing" skin.

[In5anity]

Thanks for the response, FittleLinger. I already thought, that nearly anything had already been discussed, given there are 26 threads, each with 25 and more pages. ;) Gonna follow this thread anyway and perhaps contribute in one or the other way. :)

[Lummel]

First of all, thanks for all the theory in the heresy threads. At first I wanted to read them all before posting here the first time, but the time it took me to get through the first one was enough for 2 new heresy threads, so I fear I had to skip a bit. :D So sorry, if this has already been mentioned and it doesn't really fit into the mythology discussion but I feel this is the right thread for it since it deals with the potential dark secret on the stark dynasty:

Has anyone else wondered about the Bolton sigil and the whole flaying thing? Did Martin really just want us to see, that they're cruel evil bastards or is there more behind this whole flaying thing. I mean, the Boltons are the old enemy of the Starks and we assume this whole skinchaning thing is connected to some dark secret. Isn't it an interesting coincidence (or perhaps no coincidence at all) that the skinchangers enemies pull the skin of their victims and say "a flayed enemy holds no secrets"? Could there be more behind it than a simple method of torturing enemies? Could the Boltons know (or have known) about the Stark secret and use (or have used) the flaying as a symbol of their fight against the skinchangers like "You can't change your skin anymore if it hangs in my basement"?! Perhaps if there is some dark secret, we really will know about it but through the wildlings, the CotF, the three eyed crow but through the Boltons.

Well, if this has already been mentioned and/or discussed, sorry for the interuption ;)

Yes. I can't find the start of it but I think it goes back to Tze in the early heresies. The original idea was I think that the boltons were attempting to imitate the starks by literally changing skins, alternatively they could have started out attempting to punish skinchangers.

There is now a skin changing nexus - the wargs, the boltons and the faceless men. They are all involved in skin changing.

Possibly the idea is also related to 'the bones remember'. We see with the warging and the face changing that memory can be associated with skin changing.

[In5anity]

Wow, I totally forgot about the faceless men. :D The potential connection between the skins in the Boltons basement and the skinchanging of the faceless men seems really appealing to me.

[Little Wing]

Bael playing swopsie with the baby is something which hadn't occurred to me. I certainly think that the first priority was to ensure the continuation of the Stark line in Winterfell, and that this resulted in a strain of Sidhe blood being introduced or perhaps re-introduced remembering the Night King's child, but whether this was through a half Sidhe baby or a full Sidhe changeling I don't know. Either way I think this is where the warging comes from (along with the descendants of all those other terrible half human children) and why Bolton skinned the boy after he had grown up to be Stark of Winterfell.

Do we know of offspring of the Night's King that coupled with a Stark in order to inject the Sidhe blood/genes? They were sacrificed to Others apparently, so maybe one of those wasn't sacrificed? Or Bael is a descendant of Wildling + Sidhe offspring of Night's King?