Tyryan Lannister Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Sorry for the interruption, but I wanted to know if any explorations were made into whether or not Mance"s true identity is Rhaegar? Your discussion regarding Bael stealing a Stark girl and perhaps a link to Mance, and my first thought was wondering if Rhaegar's rubies were a glamor? Plus all the Targaryen first names spelled with "ae".I have to flat out say no to this. Mance's back story is supported by far to many members of the Watch and such for it to be a fabrication I feel. And especially since Qhorin and Mance were very close friends AND Mance left quite awhile ago, there just isn't enough time between the Trident and Mance leaving (which, for all we know, could have been before the Rebellion even) for Mance and Qhorin to have developed such a strong friendship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Wing Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 He'll, for all we know, Bael is a descendent of the NK and he stole the daughter both to make sure that a Stark continued the line and to bring the original family back in controlNow you're speaking my language! :cheers:But I would rather tend to believe Bael brought the daughter to the Others through Winterfell's crypts and she conceived with an Other... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 I have to flat out say no to this. Mance's back story is supported by far to many members of the Watch and such for it to be a fabrication I feel. And especially since Qhorin and Mance were very close friends AND Mance left quite awhile ago, there just isn't enough time between the Trident and Mance leaving (which, for all we know, could have been before the Rebellion even) for Mance and Qhorin to have developed such a strong friendship.What I am suggesting is the person wearing the armor was not Rhaegar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Summer is Ending Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Has anyone speculated on how the Others are rearing these infants into adult White Walkers? I mentioned in an earlier post the sound of the wind sounding like a babe's wail as the temperature drops and the Others arrive in Chett's POV.I just wondered if they need to find a source for milk - or if the babes suckle blood from a dark source? Does anyone know if the wind is described as sounding like a baby's cry in other chapters.Chet also seemed to have a change in his thought processes as the Other's approach. He actually pictures the whore who spurned him in a sympathetic light. This reminds me of Jon Snow remembering, or dreaming, that Othor resembled his father Ned.An interesting connection.Yet in his nightmare he faced it again … and this time the burning corpse wore Lord Eddard’s features. It was his father’s skin that burst and blackened, his father’s eyes that ran liquid down his cheeks like jellied tears. Jon did not understand why that should be or what it might mean, but it frightened him more than he could say.He could see Bessa’s face floating before him. It wasn’t the knife I wanted to put in you, he wanted to tell her. I picked you flowers, wild roses and tansy and goldencups, it took me all morning. His heart was thumping like a drum, so loud he feared it might wake the camp. Ice caked his beard all around his mouth. Where did that come from, with Bessa? Whenever he’d thought of her before, it had only been to remember the way she’d looked, dying. What was wrong with him? He could hardly breathe.Both are feeling exceptional not just fear but guilt. Feelings beyond understanding.Will and Gared feel it as well in the GoT prologue.Until tonight. Something was different tonight. There was an edge to this darkness that made his hackles rise.Today was the worst of all. A cold wind was blowing out of the north, and it made the trees rustle like living things. All day, Will had felt as though something were watching him, something cold and implacable that loved him not.“There’s something wrong here,” Gared muttered. The young knight gave him a disdainful smile. “Is there?” “Can’t you feel it?” Gared asked. “Listen to the darkness.” Will could feel it. Four years in the Night’s Watch, and he had never been so afraid. What was it?That's interesting given these men are veteran rangers with more than enough time spent beyond the Wall. Nor do they have any thought of the Others as being anything more than legend yet they have the same overwhelming terror. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Wing Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Jon's nightmare is the one that kind of sticks out, at least to me. Chet and the rangers could just be experiencing fear of impending death? :dunno:As for Jon's dream, the fact that it frightened him more than he could say reminds me of Bran's horror during his comatose dream when he looks into the heart of Winter. Interesting... That he saw his father in his dream instead of the wight may point to a Stark/WW connection of old that is trying to surface subconsciously? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyryan Lannister Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 What I am suggesting is the person wearing the armor was not Rhaegar.Ah sorry didn't catch that... but I'm still not buying it. Mance is supposed to have been born at the Wall and raised by the Watch. When he's old enough, he joins the Watch and is stationed at Shadow Tower where he becomes best friends with Qhorin. Given that Mance's age is roughly 45-50 I believe at the beginning of the series, all of this would have happened well before the rebellion. So unless your saying that the Rhaegar before the Trident was a glamour, and that even the Rhaegar who abducted Lyanna... there's just to many holes in the Rhaegar-is-Mance theory vis-a-vis the dates in Mance's backstory (namely that he left the Watch a good number of years ago--at least ten before Game I believe--and that he needed years to develop that strong of a friendship with Qhorin) that I just don't see how Rhaegar could be Mance.Now, "Rhaegar" not being Rhaegar in and of itself I can see, but also don't subscribe to.For Martin (DISCLAIMER: not ALWAYS a reliable source :bang: ) has said that Rhaegar is dead.Also, I feel that Rhaegar kind of needs to be dead: we don't need a nother claimant to the Iron Throne and, if R+L=J, Jon kind of needs Rhaegar to stay dead so that he has no father figure to run to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyryan Lannister Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Jon's nightmare is the one that kind of sticks out, at least to me. Chet and the rangers could just be experiencing fear of impending death? :dunno:As for Jon's dream, the fact that it frightened him more than he could say reminds me of Bran's horror during his comatose dream when he looks into the heart of Winter. Interesting... That he saw his father in his dream instead of the wight may point to a Stark/WW connection of old that is trying to surface subconsciously?The Heart of Winter as that special hell reserved for Starks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Wing Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 The Heart of Winter as that special hell reserved for Starks?Ah, yes - getting back to the Source :PI don't know... you think? Or teasing?Maybe it's Hell for others (no pun) but Heaven for Starks? They just don't know it yet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Summer is Ending Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Jon's nightmare is the one that kind of sticks out, at least to me. Chet and the rangers could just be experiencing fear of impending death? :dunno:As for Jon's dream, the fact that it frightened him more than he could say reminds me of Bran's horror during his comatose dream when he looks into the heart of Winter. Interesting... That he saw his father in his dream instead of the wight may point to a Stark/WW connection of old that is trying to surface subconsciously?Jon sticks out, but as the one most likely to only be having a purely fear based reaction. Chett's only fear is waiting there for the wildlings and we know what he was planning to do. Will and Gared are veteran rangers that have been in those woods too many times to let their imaginations run wild. And neither group has a reason to fear impending death at the time they have those feelings of fear unless you're trying to suggest some sort of prophetic fear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Wing Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Um, I may have been a bit vague, sorry about that. I'll try and explain how I see it - with Chet, I thought, he's feeling remorse in his last moments kind of thing. Remorse and guilt as he's about to die.The passage with the rangers has no looking back on one's life with fear or remorse sort of moment, they just feel apprehension at the winds and the cold and Will states that he is feeling watched, so I guess it's normal to feel fear. It's prophetic in a primal fear sort of way, when you feel something's wrong, but don't have a ready explanation as to why you feel that or what may be causing it, you just feel something's off. Instinct/intuition is what I mean here I guess. But it is sort of nature's way of making us all a bit prophetic at times.So, that's the difference I see, but that's just my opinion - there is the closeness of Others that connects these situations...Edit: Grammar and content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iceborn Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 in the GoT proluge the fear of the rangers is played upon hevily, as if the oaths or experience make them more sensitive, the Stark WW connection is interesting, but correct me if I'm wrong but this is the first time Jon has "killed" so he might be feeling guilty for burning someone "alive" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Wing Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 in the GoT proluge the fear of the rangers is played upon hevily, as if the oaths or experience make them more sensitive, the Stark WW connection is interesting, but correct me if I'm wrong but this is the first time Jon has "killed" so he might be feeling guilty for burning someone "alive"What's interesting is that Ned's face is there instead of the wight... does the guilt have something to do with Ned? Maybe he fears of letting Ned down? And the immense fear he feels in the nightmare could be an after-shock of sorts that one can have after traumatic events.But I have a feeling dreams in this series are more supernatural than that :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7V3N Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 What I am suggesting is the person wearing the armor was not Rhaegar.I think considering he was the leadership of the Targs, someone would have pulled off the helmet.Bran Vras has a very intriguing topic of how gems and silk may have magical properties. It starts somewhat broad then becomes more focused on glamours:http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/63948-rhaegar-targaryen-early-passion-for-the-lord-of-light-foul-play-at-harrenhal-the-spearwife-princess/page__st__160 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyryan Lannister Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Ah, yes - getting back to the Source :PI don't know... you think? Or teasing?A little of both Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iceborn Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 I think considering he was the leadership of the Targs, someone would have pulled off the helmet.Bran Vras has a very intriguing topic of how gems and silk may have magical properties. It starts somewhat broad then becomes more focused on glamours:http://asoiaf.wester...s/page__st__160on this point with mance his new cloak that he is defensive about (inc. time as rattleshirt) it is black and red the colours of the dragon, just something to think about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 I think considering he was the leadership of the Targs, someone would have pulled off the helmet.Bran Vras has a very intriguing topic of how gems and silk may have magical properties. It starts somewhat broad then becomes more focused on glamours:http://asoiaf.wester...s/page__st__160I think considering he was the leadership of the Targs, someone would have pulled off the helmet.Bran Vras has a very intriguing topic of how gems and silk may have magical properties. It starts somewhat broad then becomes more focused on glamours:http://asoiaf.wester...s/page__st__160Didn't Robert smash his head in with his hammer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 on this point with mance his new cloak that he is defensive about (inc. time as rattleshirt) it is black and red the colours of the dragon, just something to think about.Don't get me wrong. I'm not convinced of anything. I just want to examine any evidence...and there's some irony there being King-Beyond-the-Wall and his Bael-like behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Wing Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 A little of bothHar!Well, be careful, these days it seems I weave whatever is thrown in my general direction into an insane theory :drunk: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyryan Lannister Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Didn't Robert smash his head in with his hammer?I thought it was only Rhaegar's chest that was smashed in, hence the rubies scattering from the breast plate (complete with a pair of nipples I would hope) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gala Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 He'll, for all we know, Bael is a descendent of the NK and he stole the daughter both to make sure that a Stark continued the line and to bring the original family back in controlSorry for interrupting and, probably, for asking a stupid question, but where exactly (a quote from book, please, or page) is it said that Bael is a descendent of the NK? I am asking because I do not recall it at all. The whole Bael story seems to be a fairy tale - a parallel about what happened to Lyanna told to (presumably) her son (Jon).and to convince him that he has the wildling blood in him, no more, no less. THe other thing the NK's story is quite interesting and the building of the Wall, and before that. I think Starks are "linked" to WW in more ancient way, assuming they do link with them at all. I think they were not called KIng of Winter for nothing, but much earlier than that stupid story about Bael, which tells us of wildings' coolness and boldness (and is a parallel to the Rhaegar/Lyanna story). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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