Little Wing Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Sorry for interrupting and, probably, for asking a stupid question, but where exactly (a quote from book, please, or page) is it said that Bael is a descendent of the NK? I am asking because I do not recall it at all. The whole Bael story seems to be a fairy tale - a parallel about what happened to Lyanna told to (presumably) her son (Jon).Um, we are speculating, that is all. I was wondering about the origin of the Stark/Sidhe connection and asked if it had anything to do with Bael and the rest you can read on this thread. Again, speculating, not claiming. I've come across wilder speculations on Heresy :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gala Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 I see, I've read the thread, but I asked because it was said "for all we know", which is not exactly a speculation, as least it doesn't seem like one. I am also interested in the connection subject. I personally think Starks "tamed" or "betrayed" the winter, they somehow have a control for WW invasions or appearances. It is seem that Stark family is connected to that. Their history would probably appear to be very nasty, really nasty.Edited to add: Although, they are still my favourite House, them and Davos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Wing Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Well, "for all we know" simply means - "anything is possible - we don't know yet for sure", but we can speculate, that's the fun part!There's much and more to be said on the subject of the Starks and Others connection, bit I'm sure Black Crow will explain it much better than I can, and I don't want to confuse you with my vagueness :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Efilnikufesin Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Ah but if you want a really disturbing alternative. Setanta[Jon] was the illegitimate son of Lugh and Conchobar's[Ned's] wayward sister Deichtine [Lyanna]. Now this particular Lugh was known as Lugh of the long (or strong) arm, but there was of course another Lugh, encountered in the Mabinogion; Lugh of the Silver Hand [Jamie Lannister]. Now that would upset things a bit if it turned out Jon's father wasn't Rhaegar Targaryen but Jamie Lannister...Not sure if it is different in the Mabinogion, but usually I have seen it as Nuada of the Silver Hand, a king figure who had his hand taken fighting the champion of the FirBolg, losing his hand in the process. Due to losing his hand he was no longer allowed to rule the Tuatha De Daan because no one with a deformity was allowed to rule them. He was made a silver hand, and years later was grown a new hand and eventually restored to King, after Lugh I believe. (Just some off the top of my head stuff, might be off on a point or two, Sorry if I interupted the current topic, only got as far as BC's post) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7V3N Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Didn't Robert smash his head in with his hammer?I thought it was only Rhaegar's chest that was smashed in, hence the rubies scattering from the breast plate (complete with a pair of nipples I would hope)I think Tyryan has got it. I think it is specifically said at one point, though I would not be able to tell you where. But regardless, I think GRRM has said himself that Rhaegar is dead. Plus, bringing Rhaegar back would really anger me since so much of the story is propelled (or strategically stalled) by his death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 Not sure if it is different in the Mabinogion, but usually I have seen it as Nuada of the Silver Hand, a king figure who had his hand taken fighting the champion of the FirBolg, losing his hand in the process. Due to losing his hand he was no longer allowed to rule the Tuatha De Daan because no one with a deformity was allowed to rule them. He was made a silver hand, and years later was grown a new hand and eventually restored to King, after Lugh I believe. (Just some off the top of my head stuff, might be off on a point or two, Sorry if I interupted the current topic, only got as far as BC's post)Lugh and Nuadda are one and the same; just different spelling depending on whether the source is Irish (Lug/Lugh) or Welsh (Nuadda). There is a further distinction in that Lug, the secret father of Setanta , is known as Lug of the long or strong arm - it varies, but essentially means mighty, as in capable of dealing mighty blows - while the one in the Mabinogion is of the silver hand. I suspect that if we were able to trace the stories back far enough they might still be one and the same but in the present context I don't really think it matters.ETA: mixed them up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 Sorry for interrupting and, probably, for asking a stupid question, but where exactly (a quote from book, please, or page) is it said that Bael is a descendent of the NK? I am asking because I do not recall it at all. The whole Bael story seems to be a fairy tale - a parallel about what happened to Lyanna told to (presumably) her son (Jon).It's neither in the books nor in the heresies. The story of Bael is told by Ygritte, but its a very thinly disguised rehash of the Tam Lin story, about how the Lord's virgin daughter plucks a rose and becomes pregnant by the Queen of Faerie's servant, thus providing the old lord with the male heir he needs to keep the line going.Given that Faerie connection my original suggestion was that the episode occurred in order to strengthen a possible connection between the Starks and the Others/Sidhe, but on looking more closely at Bael (the real one) it now seems more likely that he, and now Mance/Bael (Mannanan the harper) are tied up somehow with the Red Lot, which would also explain why he and Mel appear to be reluctant allies in whatever's really happening or needs to happen at Winterfell.The suggestion which has been made (not by me, but I like it) is that the Nights King's seed are the Boltons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Plus, bringing Rhaegar back would really anger me since so much of the story is propelled (or strategically stalled) by his death.Well, we can't risk that, can we? lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 on this point with mance his new cloak that he is defensive about (inc. time as rattleshirt) it is black and red the colours of the dragon, just something to think about.It is, but not I think in the way you're suggesting.Leaving aside any questions as to Mance's birth - he wasn't born on the Wall but was the only survivor of a Wildling raiding party taken and raised by the Watch - its worth bearing in mind the connection we think existed or may once have existed between the Nights Watch and the guards of the Red Temples, the original watchers on the walls. The oath, as we've noted, appears to be heavily based on prayers to R'hllor, yet the present Watch have all too obviously long forgotten this connection along with everything else.Mance, I suggest, hasn't and the significance of the red silk, whether taught him before he was first captured (remember its assumed he was a Wildling born but he could have been a captive or a guest) or taught or reminded to him by the woods witch, may be that when wearing the red silk he may have been consciously displaying his allegiance to the Red God and gave up on the Watch because they were backsliders and weren't fundamentalist enough.He's obviously a little more circumspect now, but he's the one who brought the Wildlings together, and according to Osha originally intended to use them to fight the Others, before pragmatism set in and he led them south to the Wall instead, perhaps still in search of the Horn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alienarea Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 - we don't have seen large numbers of White Walkers- human wargs don't die when the human body dies but can live on in the animal they warg- the Others aren't dead- there aren't a lot Starks around ever- the Night King gave his seed to a female Other=> the Starks are descendants of the Night King and the female Other. The warging ability is inherited from the female side. When the human body of a Stark with warging abilities dies, the Stark becomes a White Walker (they are not dead). White Walkers roam around when it is cold. The Others retreated after the Long Night as long as there is a Stark in Winterfell. Currently, there isn't a Stark in Winterfell. Winter is coming.To end the coming long night, a Stark must return to Winterfell and rule. Rickon. Or Bran. Or Benjen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iceborn Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 It is, but not I think in the way you're suggesting.Leaving aside any questions as to Mance's birth - he wasn't born on the Wall but was the only survivor of a Wildling raiding party taken and raised by the Watch - its worth bearing in mind the connection we think existed or may once have existed between the Nights Watch and the guards of the Red Temples, the original watchers on the walls. The oath, as we've noted, appears to be heavily based on prayers to R'hllor, yet the present Watch have all too obviously long forgotten this connection along with everything else.Mance, I suggest, hasn't and the significance of the red silk, whether taught him before he was first captured (remember its assumed he was a Wildling born but he could have been a captive or a guest) or taught or reminded to him by the woods witch, may be that when wearing the red silk he may have been consciously displaying his allegiance to the Red God and gave up on the Watch because they were backsliders and weren't fundamentalist enough.He's obviously a little more circumspect now, but he's the one who brought the Wildlings together, and according to Osha originally intended to use them to fight the Others, before pragmatism set in and he led them south to the Wall instead, perhaps still in search of the Horn. I was under the impression that mance supported the old gods, but like Qhorin used the sorcery of fire. I don't think the wildlings would accept him, there is a line where it is said "no man can fight the dead, no-one knows that better than Mance" This may be illusion to his fight against the other, or the silk might be a red (sorry) herring laid by GRRM. But the watch are like r'hllor with the burning of the dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTR-90 Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 I hope we find out in the last two books that there are absolutely no blood connections between the Starks and the others. I really like the starks, and don't want them to be half WW. Plus I have a serious question if the WW are so freaking cold, how did the NK have sex with one fo them, wouldn't his member be frozen off by just touching a female WW. I am being totally serious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 I was under the impression that mance supported the old gods, but like Qhorin used the sorcery of fire. I don't think the wildlings would accept him, there is a line where it is said "no man can fight the dead, no-one knows that better than Mance" This may be illusion to his fight against the other, or the silk might be a red (sorry) herring laid by GRRM. But the watch are like r'hllor with the burning of the dead.Living north of the Wall he's hardly going to preach heresy. There's no mention of the Watch burning their dead before this all kicked off and indeed Mormont, who is or rather was a follower of the Old Gods himself, said they wondered why the Wildlings burned their dead which clearly suggests it was unknown amongst the Watch. Ygritte on the other hand is very insistent on the need to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 I hope we find out in the last two books that there are absolutely no blood connections between the Starks and the others. I really like the starks, and don't want them to be half WW.Plus I have a serious question if the WW are so freaking cold, how did the NK have sex with one fo them, wouldn't his member be frozen off by just touching a female WW. I am being totally serious.Its not an unknown question, but all we have to go on is the assertion that he gave her his seed, thus implying there was at least one child of the union. As I've said before the Queen of Faerie taking a human consort or servant is pretty much a staple of folklore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTR-90 Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Its not an unknown question, but all we have to go on is the assertion that he gave her his seed, thus implying there was at least one child of the union. As I've said before the Queen of Faerie taking a human consort or servant is pretty much a staple of folklore.There is that. Also what are your views about the connections between the Children of the forest and the White Walkers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 Ultimately, of course, there is magic involved in the Nights King business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 There is that. Also what are your views about the connections between the Children of the forest and the White Walkers.Well we now have confirmation thanks to GRRM that there is one.At the very least both are connected in that they are both Faerie races, or certainly appear to be. Cold aside if you look at Professor Crow's piece at the beginning of this thread (26) you'll find that cold aside there appear to be striking similarities between the white walkers and the wood dancers' stealth armour. There is a respectable school of thought that they are one and the same, although I'm inclined to think not, but that they are very closely related and that the Others/Sidhe are the cousins in the cold of the warriors in the woods, and that as such both appear "insubstantial" in the realms of men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 - we don't have seen large numbers of White Walkers- human wargs don't die when the human body dies but can live on in the animal they warg- the Others aren't dead- there aren't a lot Starks around ever- the Night King gave his seed to a female Other=> the Starks are descendants of the Night King and the female Other. The warging ability is inherited from the female side. When the human body of a Stark with warging abilities dies, the Stark becomes a White Walker (they are not dead). White Walkers roam around when it is cold. The Others retreated after the Long Night as long as there is a Stark in Winterfell. Currently, there isn't a Stark in Winterfell. Winter is coming.To end the coming long night, a Stark must return to Winterfell and rule. Rickon. Or Bran. Or Benjen?To support your proposed theory that since Starks warg and wargs don't have to die, perhaps that is why Jon dreamt of Ned "burning"...perhaps he was melting like a White Walker would? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7V3N Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 To support your proposed theory that since Starks warg and wargs don't have to die, perhaps that is why Jon dreamt of Ned "burning"...perhaps he was melting like a White Walker would?My thoughts would be that it only applies to Stark wargs. Perhaps that is part of why Sansa, though accepting of the old gods, has always been more fond of the Seven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Efilnikufesin Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Lugh and Nuadda are one and the same; just different spelling depending on whether the source is Irish (Lug/Lugh) or Welsh (Nuadda). There is a further distinction in that Lug, the secret father of Setanta , is known as Lug of the long or strong arm - it varies, but essentially means mighty, as in capable of dealing mighty blows - while the one in the Mabinogion is of the silver hand. I suspect that if we were able to trace the stories back far enough they might still be one and the same but in the present context I don't really think it matters.ETA: mixed them up...Not so sure, Nuada was a champion of the first battle Magh Turedh, whereas Lugh a champion of the second, being born from what I can see after the First battle being the grandson of Balor the evil eye, very similar in origins to Bael's son and Oedipus' (as well similar to Balor the Blessed's story.) I could be wrong on interpretaion though, so many intermingled stories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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