Arya / No One / and the Water Motif in Braavos

[evita mgfs]

What is going one with Arya and all the water references in her POV’s in Braavos?

Arya expels all vestiges of her life, her clothing from Westeros, she tosses in the water at the docks, her boots, attire, etc, and all her gifts she received as Salty: her silver Fork ( so much like Poseidon’s trident in miniature, or Meera’s fighting spear, or Finnick’s trident in the Hunger Games), her floppy hat, her fingerless gloves, etc.

The water may represent amniotic fluid since Arya strips naked in the fog penetrating the area of Braavos, concealing herself – but she is like a babe, naked and reborn if you will, turning away her Arya side to be symbolically reborn as a servant of Him of Many Faces.

Arya hides Needle so that she has concrete proof of who she is when she needs to remember. It is not just a sword to Arya – it is woven with her memories:

“Needle was Robb and Bran and Rickon, her mother andher father, even Sansa. Needle was Winterfell . . . Needle was the summer, snows, Old Nan’s stories, the heart tree with its red leaves and scary face, the warm earthy smell of the glass gardens, the sound of the north wind rattling the shutters of her room. Needle was Jon Snow’s smile. He used to mess up my hair and call me ‘little sister’” (AFfC 455)

Braavos is a city full of whispers, masks, and WATER.

Arya even serves water, not wine, to the minions of Him of Many Faces.

There is the pool in the HoB&W as well, a poisoned pool.

And more?

Help me follow this water motif, and speculate what it means, if anything, in regards to Arya of House Stark, or NO ONE, the servant of Him of Many Faces.

[Fwaatcha]

Needle also has certain blacksmith's mark, Mickon was it? Castle forged steel, this is her only way to prove she is Arya Stark ,with the years that are passing and the years to come , who will recognize her?Her own mother wouldnt recognize her, especially since she is a FM, but that half-sword half-rapier half-dagger piece of metal is her only "physical" way to prove she was ever Arya Stark

[evita mgfs]

Needle also has certain blacksmith's mark, Mickon was it? Castle forged steel, this is her only way to prove she is Arya Stark ,with the years that are passing and the years to come , who will recognize her?Her own mother wouldnt recognize her, especially since she is a FM, but that half-sword half-rapier half-dagger piece of metal is her only "physical" way to prove she was ever Arya Stark

:agree: I agree. Here are some of my thoughts on Arya and Needle:

She defies the Faceless Men represented by the kindly man, remembering that Poliver stole her Needle, and she was with the Hound when she reclaimed it.

Moreover, Arya believes that “The gods wanted me to have it” (456) Arya thinks that her father’s gods have assisted her in reuniting with Needle: “ . . .her father’s gods, the old gods of the north” (456) Then she affirms that Him of Many Faces can have all her other possessions but “he can’t have this [Needle]” (456).

Then, after she hides Needle, she speaks to it as if they can communicate with one another: “No one will know where you are but me” (456).

Someday in the future Arya as “NO ONE” will seek out Needle so that she can remember what she once knew now lost in the dark heart of a servant of Him of Many Faces.

She hides Needle under a stone, then counts the steps on her ascent so that she will know where to find it one day.

“One day she might have need of it. ‘One day,’ she whispered to herself” (456).

Yes, she will need Needle to reclaim her Starkness. With Mikken’s mark, Needle may serve as proof to her claim on WF as a daughter of House Stark in the event Bran, Rickon, Sansa, or Jon Snow cannot claim it; moreover, in the event she is in disguise or her face is permanently disfigured, Needle can serve as the device of a recognition scene.

But I see Needle as a vehicle to allow Arya to recognize Arya of House Stark again, and as a means to allow Jon Snow to recognize his sister through his gift of Needle in a conflict or event to come that sets them squarely in front of each other – and proof is needed for verification.

“Stick them with the pointy end!” :fencing:

[selmyisgod]

Yeah I think that her hiding Needle will lead to her becoming Arya Stark not noone, otherwise why would George have put it in???...unless only to have an absolutly heart crushing, soul-destroying scene where Arya, now as noone thinks she remembers hiding something under that stone until she nearly turns it to find Needle, only to pull away at the last second and continue on with her life as nobody ;(

[ARYa_Nym]

I'll repost the relevant quotes I put in the other thread to help. Good note on Salty and the fork btw. :)

This mermaid story is like the one of the identity stories Arya made up about her past.

A popular Greek legend turns Alexander the Great's sister, Thessalonike, into a mermaid after she died.^[7] As a mermaid, she lived in the Aegean and when she encountered a ship she asked its sailors only one question: "Is King Alexander alive?" ( to which the correct answer was: "He lives and reigns and conquers the world" . This answer pleased her so she calmed the waters and wished the ship farewell. Any other answer would spur her into a rage. She would raise a terrible storm, dooming the ship and every sailor on board.^[8][9]

A mermaid asks a question and must get the correct answer and if she doesn't said person will die.

This reminds me of Arya's warning to Sam and of her made up story about her father being killed for giving the wrong answer.

"My father was the oarmaster on Nymeria. A bravo killed him for saying that my mother was more beautiful than the Nightingale. Not one of those camel cunts you met, a real bravo. Someday I’ll slit his throat."

Another lesser similarity I see is with the Slavic myth of the Rusalka.

In Slavic mythology, a rusalka (plural: rusalki or rusalky) is a female ghost, water nymph, succubus, or mermaid-like demon that dwelt in a waterway...

The ghostly version is the soul of a young woman who had died in or near a river or a lake and came back to haunt that waterway. This undead rusalka is not invariably malevolent, and will be allowed to die in peace if her death is avenged.

The human form sounds like Arya.

The rusalka are slim with long, loose hair, blazing eyes and magnificent breasts. Their hair may be light brown, blond or green. They can assume the form of a fish or have legs like a human. In the latter form, they haunt the forests, dance with the moon and swing from the branches of trees.

According to most traditions, the rusalki were fish-women, who lived at the bottom of rivers. In the middle of the night, they would walk out to the bank and dance in meadows. If they saw handsome men, they would fascinate them with songs and dancing, mesmerize them, then lead them away to the river floor to their death.

The parallel stops with the singing. Arya can't be like a siren either because of that.

Arya has a lot of similarities with the goddess of the moon and underworld, Diana. In the Underworld it's separated by rivers.

The Underworld was separated from the worlds of the living by five rivers, namely Acheron (river of woe), Cocytus (river of lamentation), Phlehethon (river of fire), Lethe (river of forgetfulness), and Styx (river of hate). The latter was famous because Zeus forced gods to drink the entire river Styx if they had forsaken an oath. The water was said to be so foul that the god in question would lose his or her voice for nine years

Arya is often drawn to water in the story as noted by the OP.

Jon said that she swam like a fish.

She looked back over a shoulder, and saw Sandor Clegane struggling with his frightened horse…She would never have a better chance to get away from him. I might drown, though. Jon used to say that she swam like a fish, but even a fish might have trouble in this river.

Arya's favorite place in Braavos is the harbor and she liked the sailors. Speaking of which in many tales sailors are drawn to mermaids.

"...the Ragman’s Harbor, a poorer, rougher, dirtier port than the Purple. Cat liked it best of any place in Braavos. She liked the noise and the strange smells, and seeing what ships had come in on the evening tide and what ships had departed.She liked the sailors too;"

She learned about dragons from sailor's tales.

Sometimes she brought back sailor’s tales, of strange and wondrous happenings from the wide wet world beyond the isles of Braavos, wars and rains of toads and dragons hatching.

In ACoK she wanted to see seamonsters from Old Nan's stories.

Sea nymphs were believed to be amiable to sailors.

In Greek mythology, the Nereids are sea nymphs (female spirits of sea waters), the fifty daughters of Nereus and Doris, sisters to Nerites. They were distinct from the mermaid-like Sirens. They often accompany Poseidon and can be friendly and helpful to sailors fighting perilous storms.

THE NEREIDES (or Nereids) were fifty Haliad Nymphs or goddesses of the sea. They were the patrons of sailors and fishermen, who came to the aid of men in distress, and goddesses who had in their care the sea's rich bounty.

In AGoT she wanted to swim in Blackwater Rush.

"Sometimes she thought about swimming the river, but the Blackwater Rush was wide and deep, and everyone agreed that its currents were wicked and treacherous. She had no coin to pay a ferryman or take passage on a ship."

Before that, after she got out of the tunnels she undressed and went swimming in the river. She bathed in the moonlight.

"She found herself standing at the mouth of a sewer where it emptied into the river. She stank so badly that she stripped right there, dropping her soiled clothing on the riverbank as she dove into the deep black waters. She swam until she felt clean, and crawled out shivering. Some riders went past along the river road as Arya was washing her clothes, but if they saw the scrawny naked girl scrubbing her rags in the moonlight, they took no notice. "

In ACoK she feels at peace in a scene of nature.

"The river was a blue-green ribbon shining in the morning sun. Reeds grew thick in the shallows along the banks, and Arya saw a water snake skimming across the surface, ripples spreading out behind it as it went. Overhead a hawk flew in lazy circles. It seemed a peaceful place..."

She wanted to catch fish and in AGoT wanted to find Rhaegar's rubies in the Trident.

Arya wanted to swim all the way to WF once.

"The green water was warm as tears, but there was no salt in it. It tasted of summer and mud and growing things. Arya plunged her face down into it to wash off the dust and dirt and sweat of the day. When she leaned back the trickles ran down the back of her neck and under her collar. They felt good. She wished she could take off her clothes and swim, gliding through the warm water like an skinny pink otter. Maybe she could swim all the way to Winterfell. "

I mentioned that Arya could be like the water nymph Daphne who was turned into a tree when trying to flee from Apollo pursuing her. Arya was also called a maiden of the tree in a song. She dances amongst the trees and called herself an oak tree. In the No Featherbed for Me song she is the forest lass with a gown of leaves and grass in her hair so she could be like Daphne.

EDIT: Oh, and I forgot to mention Arya discussing the courtesan the Merling Queen.

"...and the Merling Queen was never seen without her Mermaids, four young maidens in the blush of their first flowering who held her train and did her hair..."

“The Merling Queen has chosen a new Mermaid to take the place of the one that drowned. She is the daughter of a Prestayn serving maid, thirteen and penniless, but lovely.” “So are they all, at the beginning.” Said the priest…”

[BringerOfSnow]

Arya doesn't forget where she comes from, or who she is.

She tells herself she needs to get better at lying to the kindly old man, so that he doesn't know who she is (although he always knows and will always know) and sees the truth behind her lies. He knew who she was before she came to the HoB&W. He's known the entire time. It is safe to believe there are plenty of people in Westeros who will recognize her for who she is (and how she speaks).

Arya is not changing from Arya. She is Arya. She is a wolf. She is changing, but her Starkness will always remain (especially so, so long as she is warging Nymeria from across the Narrow Sea). You all seem to have forgotten Nymeria. There is not a single thought of doubt in mind that Arya will reunite with Nymeria.

Yes I agree with you all that Needle has been incorporated into the story for her to remember where she came from, but nobody, not even a person with the most trauamtic life expriences, forgets where they came from, what they've endured, where they intend to head, or more importantly, who they are.

Think logically people. Needle will not be her "claim" to be Stark. That's just absurd to think.

[evita mgfs]

:dunno: We were addressing a water motif, and since we have all been posting on other threads about Nymeria, for there are several, including one specifically on the Direwolves of House Stark, are comments concerning Nymeria and Arya are all there. You will find that in those posts, we came to a consensus that Arya and water are connected, and we wanted to explore it in this thread.

The point I was bringing up was that Arya tossed all her "attire" into the waters, what she wore from Westeros, and in this the WATER served as amniotic fluid and she is symbolically reborn, IMO, as a servant of Him of Many Faces. She returns to the HoB&W naked as a newborn babe.

Maybe I did not clarify my post. I am not too swift on the uptake at times. :dunce: Sorry. We love Arya and Nym. Visit here:http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/75961-calling-all-direwolf-dog-lovers-in-asoiaf/page__st__20

and here

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/75854-aryas-destiny/page__st__280

[James Arryn]

There was a thread that arrived at a consensus?!?!?!?

Was it locked after 2 replies or similar

[evita mgfs]

There was a thread that arrived at a consensus?!?!?!?

Was it locked after 2 replies or similar

No - none of the threads I mentioned are locked.

Can you link me to it please?

[James Arryn]

No - none of the threads I mentioned are locked.

Can you link me to it please?

No, I was joking about how nothing is ever agreed upon around here.

I seem to be off today. :(

[evita mgfs]

Yes, that went over my head. I have looked at many locked threads, and they are quite scary, too me. :dunce:

[ARYa_Nym]

The point I was bringing up was that Arya tossed all her "attire" into the waters, what she wore from Westeros, and in this the WATER served as amniotic fluid and she is symbolically reborn, IMO, as a servant of Him of Many Faces. She returns to the HoB&W naked as a newborn babe.

That kind of reminds me of a baptism. She goes in one way and the water purifies her and she's supposed to be reborn.

I have more to add to what I said earlier. There is a sea nymph whose name meant Lone Wolf.

OIOLYKA (or Oeolyca) was a Haliad (Marine) Nymph daughter of the hundred-handed giant Briareos, and probably a goddess of storm-generated wave-surges.

Her name means "Lone Wolf," which is perhaps a reference to the jaws of a large breaking wave generated by her parents--the storm-god Briareus and wave-goddess Kymopoleia.

You mentioned Arya's fork as a parallel to Poseiden. I looked up Neptune who is commonly associated with him and found some similarities.

Neptune (Latin: Neptūnus) was the god of the sea in Roman mythology. He is most identifiable as a tall, white-bearded figure carrying a trident, a three pronged fisherman's spear. Fittingly, he is often pictured with fish, as well as with horses, another animal with which he is closely linked since he was also thought to oversee the sport of horse-racing. These horses drew the chariot in which he was said to travel over the sea.

He has the forked weapon and is associated with fish and horses. He was also violent and destructive.

Neptune was commonly characterized in myth as a violent, ill-tempered character. In this way, he represents the tempestuous nature of the ocean waters, and, like the sea, often displays a destructive nature.

The animal that is sacrificed to him is the bull. Arya had a bull around her for a while. She considered killing Gendry once but decided against it.

More Underworld parallels was that the crossing of the River Styx reminds me of when Arya is on the ferry ride with Sandor and Stranger. Those are two figures associated with death.

The ferryman Charon is believed to have transported the souls of the newly dead across this river into the underworld, though in the original Greek and Roman sources, as well as in Dante, it was the river Acheron that Charon plied. Dante put Phlegyas over the Styx and made it the fifth circle of Hell, where the wrathful and sullen are punished by being drowned in the muddy waters for eternity, with the wrathful fighting each other.

Having a coin would grant you passage across in order to be reborn.

In ancient times some believed that placing a coin in the mouth^[2] of the deceased would help pay the toll for the ferry to help cross the Styx river which would lead one to the entrance of the underworld. If some could not pay the fee it was said that they would never be able to cross the river.

In AGoT, Arya thinks about not having a coin to pay.

She had no coin to pay a ferryman or take passage on a ship.

But Jaqen's coin was her grant of passage in order to be reborn.

She took out the coin that Jaqen H’ghar had given her and curled her fingers around it as she lay beneath her cloak. It made her feel strong to hold it, remembering how she’d seen the ghost in Harrenhal. She could kill with a whisper then.

She also said that Nymeria's eyes looked like two gold coins and Red Roggo taught her to cut purses for coins.

She had yellow eyes. When they caught the sunlight, they gleamed like two golden coins.

She searches the dead for coins.

"She swept the temple floors; she served and poured at meals; she sorted piles of dead men’s clothing, emptied their purses, and counted out stacks of queer coins. Every morning she walked beside the kindly man as he made his circuit of the temple to find the dead."

& of course as Cat of the Canals she works for coin.

There's also a parallel to the Roman goddess Venus.

Venus was born out of the sea.

She was also an armed war goddess who ruled over the heavens, and was identified with the brightest star in the sky. To the Phoenician traders, could tame wild animals, and she brought safety and prosperity to sailors. Aphrodite means "foam born".

Venus is sometimes depicted as the goddess of prostitutes and Arya hangs around them while in Braavos.

"She can give military victory, sexual success, good fortune and prosperity. In one context, she is a goddess of prostitutes..."

She has a bright star in the sky and is good with sailors. Arianne mentioned Queen Nymeria's bright star.

"Do you see the white one, Quentyn? That is Nymeria’s star, burning bright, and that milky band behind her, those are ten thousand ships. She burned as bright as any man, and so shall I. You will not rob me of my birthright!"

[evita mgfs]

That kind of reminds me of a baptism. She goes in one way and the water purifies her and she's supposed to be reborn.

I have more to add to what I said earlier. There is a sea nymph whose name meant Lone Wolf.

You mentioned Arya's fork as a parallel to Poseiden. I looked up Neptune who is commonly associated with him and found some similarities.

He has the forked weapon and is associated with fish and horses. He was also violent and destructive.

The animal that is sacrificed to him is the bull. Arya had a bull around her for a while. She considered killing Gendry once but decided against it.

More Underworld parallels was that the crossing of the River Styx reminds me of when Arya is on the ferry ride with Sandor and Stranger. Those are two figures associated with death.

Having a coin would grant you passage across in order to be reborn.

In AGoT, Arya thinks about not having a coin to pay.

But Jaqen's coin was her grant of passage in order to be reborn.

snip

Venus is sometimes depicted as the goddess of prostitutes and Arya hangs around them while in Braavos.

She has a bright star in the sky and is good with sailors. Arianne mentioned Queen Nymeria's bright star.

Thank you for the awesome post. I taught Homer's Iliad and Odyssey for 27 years, so I am good with the Greek myth.

The River Styx, which Charon leads the dead across, is a river full of magic, for Achilles' mother wants her son to be immortal, so she dips him in the river, holding him by the heel. But Thetis is a goddess [mortals could not skip down to Hades and dip their children in the river], the silver footed Thetis is her stock epithet, and she is a sea nymph or known as the goddess of the water, one of 50 nereids who were daughters of Proteus, who is a shape-shifter who sleeps with the seals.

In the Odyssey, Telemachus visits Sparta to meet Menelaus and Helen. They take one look at him and his feet and say, "You are the son of great Odysseus". This reminds me of the recognition scenes (Greek anagnorosis) with Jon Snow and Qhorin, Mance, Craster, and who else recognizes him as Stark on one look?

Well, Proteus is described. Menelaus must hold down the "old man of the sea" for he has knowledge to break the calm his ships are in, but he must hold him down as he turns into a pig, a flame, a waterfall, a tiger, etc. Protean means changeable - so now I am leading toward Arya being associated with Nyriads and Proteus, for she is going to change her face - and she wargs as well - just as Proteus changes his "faces" or outward appearance.

But like so many stories, the gods give with one hand and take away with the other. Achilles is immortal but for his heel, which is how his mother held him (which reminds me of old school birthing, where the doctor holds the infant by the heel upside down immediately after birth and smacks his behind to make him cry).

I am trying to come up with a thesis to pull these together - for there is definitely something here with the water.

I also like the baptism idea - and I will have to find instances of Arya in the rain. I have started skimming my notes in her POV's, but honestly, I will start reading, then go on to Jon and get all these ideas about Mormont, and then all these bells and whistles go off about parallels with Arya.

Arya serves. She serves Him of Many Faces and the order of FM

Jon serves. He swears and oath to serve with the NW.

Bran serves. He serves BR and the old gods as well as CoF and the realms of men and women.

Sansa serves. She takes care of the little lord Arryn like a mother would, which in a way helps both Lady Lysa and LF, so she serves them as well.

Robb served. As King of the North, he served as the leader of the realm and his army.

I went back and noted the items Arya tosses, and I tried to make connectins with each one. Maybe you can help. She had donned the clothes she'd worn from Westeros.

[bTW, I prefer water representing Arya's indoctrination into the order of FM - like you said, a baptism]

fingerless gloves

floppy hat

dagger

her pouch and coins

her boots

sword belt

cloak

tunic

breeches

small clothes

all of it.

She hides Needle under a stone.

Looking at her clothing, and being of the theare, this looks like a costumer's list for an actor's character in a play, including the relevant props associated with that character. These are charts kept by those working on a production, and even a movie. You may have seen the costume designs for the up coming Les Miserables movie and the DiCaprio The Great Gatsby movie, both coming out Christmas day.

Anyways, each character has charts kept by the costumer, stage manager, properties manager, director, and others running a production from behind the scenes. It lists what an actor will wear - with his measurements and such.

Well, these are all part of Arya's former "costumes" she wore as Wease, Salty, Nym, Ary, Arya Horse Face, and more.

She is NOT throwing away her STARKNESS to become an agent of the FM and Him of Many Faces - she is throwing away all the other identities she has assumed in her young life.

So I have had a big epiphany here. Needle is the one prop she valued above all because it represents the good memories of Winterfell, Jon, and her family.

So it helps to write it out - it amazes me what comes when I am writing. Sometimes it is good, sometimes it is terrible.

Now, she throws these into the canal, disgarding them - so is their significance beyond this important? No, other than she uses the canal water to, in a sense, purify herself for the new role she is about to take, as Arya of House Stark pretending to be a NO ONE so that she can be part of a pack with the FM and Him of Many Faces.

Other thoughts - I do not think there is enough yet to prove Arya will be a power as strong as, or near as strong as, Bran. I think she will use water as a device in other instances. Did she not toss Dareon of the NW in the drink as well? She uses the water to disguise her crimes, especially the one she does on her own because Dareon is sweet of voice but he has a dark heart.

Now - there are boots floating around - Dareon's, Slynt's boots, Arya's boots are in the drink, others? I do not know if the boots mean anything other than Mel says she can work a glamor with boots. Arya does not need boots for that. She is beyond Mel's power and moving closer to Bran's.

I am sure your next post will give me even more ideas.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Nymeria has many connections with water, too. The original Queen Nymeria ruled over people living on the banks and islands in the Rhoyne River, which sounds like a cross between the Nile and the Amazon. After her husband was defeated in Rhoyne's war with the Valerians, Nymeria lead 10,000 ships across the sea to Dorne, where she ordered the ships burned so that there could be no return (hmmm, no return). Thereafter many Rhoynish were assimilated into Dornish culture, but others chose to follow Rhoynish ways. These people live on houseboats on the Greenblood River, and call themselves "Orphans" of the Greenblood.

The direwolf Nymeria and her pack live along the Trident. Significantly Nymeria pulled Catelyn from the Trident and saved her body from the other wolves, allowing Cat to be revived. There has to be some crossing the Styx, rebirth symbolism there.

[Dark Heart]

I like this thread and line of thinking.

To me Arya is "like water" in many ways.

- She wants to be free, unrestrained and runs wherever she pleases,

- She is changeable as water (change "shapes" (Arry, Nen...) to avoid being found) but fundamentally still the same,

- She is capable of accepting new things she learns and adapting her world view,

- Like water she finds even the smallest cracks and the ways to escapes.

- Twice she escapes death / prison by going down and toward water (KL and fire after saving prisoners from the cage),

- There are many (already listed) examples of Arya and water too.

And this is pure speculation but I think she's (and Jon) connected with belief in Drowned God.

What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger"

Jon "dies" but (Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy and let the man be born) will rises "harder and stronger".

Arya may have already (metaphorically) "died. And it's sure that she is already "harder and stronger".

But it may also be that the "cold cup" (cup is another water symbol) holds some kind of poison that will make her die and "rises again, harder and stronger".

I like this theory because if it was true it would ensure Arya and Jon will live at the end.

Both will be "dead" and thus they "may never die".

And I think it's possible Arya will warg a sea animal.

The Farwynds there were even queerer than the rest. Some said they were skinchangers, unholy creatures who could take on the forms of sea lions, walrus, even spotted whales, the wolves of the wild sea.

Wolves are very much a Stark symbol in the books. And if there are skinchangers that warg sea animals why wouldn't Arya or Bran be able to do it?

Bran is away from the sea but Arya is not.

[evita mgfs]

Nymeria has many connections with water, too. The original Queen Nymeria ruled over people living on the banks and islands in the Rhoyne River, which sounds like a cross between the Nile and the Amazon. After her husband was defeated in Rhoyne's war with the Valerians, Nymeria lead 10,000 ships across the sea to Dorne, where she ordered the ships burned so that there could be no return (hmmm, no return). Thereafter many Rhoynish were assimilated into Dornish culture, but others chose to follow Rhoynish ways. These people live on houseboats on the Greenblood River, and call themselves "Orphans" of the Greenblood.

The direwolf Nymeria and her pack live along the Trident. Significantly Nymeria pulled Catelyn from the Trident and saved her body from the other wolves, allowing Cat to be revived. There has to be some crossing the Styx, rebirth symbolism there.

to dear Sand Snake: Thank your for your awesome ideas. :bowdown: :cheers:

I am doing a reread, and that is why my posts have been far and few between. I needed to gather evidence for my theory, and now I need to type it all up! Ugh! I have 20 handwritten pages thus far in notes and quotes just from TCoK’s Arya’s first 4-5 POV’s.

Regarding Yoren and Arry and company on their way to the Wall, they observe the flight of the people from King’s Landing. Martin describes this flight in water terms, and Arry, or Lumpyhead, observes it:

“The good part was, with so little traffic there’d be no one to point the finger and say which way they’d gone. The human flood that had flowed down the kingsroad was only a trickle here” (136).

In the above, they are trying to reach the Trident and are nearing the Gods Eye, which is associated with another water entity, Howland Reed. The Gods Eye is also associated with the CofF, the pact of the First Men, the wood dancers (Arya is the “water dancer”), and the greenseers. [Mormont tells Jon Snow in GoT, “All I know is that the blood of the First Men flows in the veins of Starks. The First Men built the Wall, and it’s said they remember things otherwise forgotten” (784).

Mormont could have said these words to Arya as well. She will be able to remember what the First Men KNEW now forgotten in Winterfell! IMO. This, and other examples we have found, connect her to a godhood that Martin is fleshing out in his novels ASoIaF.

There’s my rough, still working-thesis. Add to it if you wish.

Note Martin’s description in ACoK:

“The river was a blue-green ribbon shining in the morning sun. Reeds grew thick in the shallows along the banks, and Arya saw a water snake skimming across the surface, ripples spreading out behind it” (210).

“It seemed a peaceful place . . . until Koss spotted the dead man, “There, in the reeds.” He pointed, and Arya saw it. The body of a soldier, shapeless and swollen, His sodden green cloak had hung up on a rotted log, and a school of tiny silver fishes were nibbling at his face. “I told you there was bodies,” Lommy announced, “I could taste it in the water.”

When Yoren saw the corpse, he spat. “Dobber, see if he’s got anything worth taking . . .”

Yoren spurs his gelding on and “rode out into the river, but the horse struggled in the soft mud and beyond the reeds the water deepened. Yoren rode back angry, his horse covered in brown slime up to his knees.”We won’t be crossing here . . . look for a ford” (210).

The Reeds are closer to the earth, stone, mud, and water, so the ironic reference of “reeds” in these few lines from Arya’s POV may be intentional. Perhaps the Reeds are creating muddier conditions to prevent a mass crossing of the Trident?

Also, this is another example of a corpse being pulled from the river. Arry is not the “actor” in this sense; she is the “observer.” Later, she will as Nym pull her own mother from the Trident [as you pointed out in your post] , who probably looks as gruesome as the corpse they spy in the reeds of the Trident.

So – now on to the next one. I hope you can add to my developing thesis as well. You are so spot-on with your interps – AND YOU WORD THINGS SO CLEARLY. I wish I could write as well as you with supreme illustrations of syntax and diction. It is evident you are a learned scholar, probably a graduate of Harvard or Oxford. I just don’t know. Whether my critique means anything, my credentials are in secondary English, and I do have a few degrees, but I am sure you have far more than I. :dunno:

[evita mgfs]

I like this thread and line of thinking.

To me Arya is "like water" in many ways.

- She wants to be free, unrestrained and runs wherever she pleases,

- She is changeable as water (change "shapes" (Arry, Nen...) to avoid being found) but fundamentally still the same,

- She is capable of accepting new things she learns and adapting her world view,

- Like water she finds even the smallest cracks and the ways to escapes.

- Twice she escapes death / prison by going down and toward water (KL and fire after saving prisoners from the cage),

- There are many (already listed) examples of Arya and water too.

And this is pure speculation but I think she's (and Jon) connected with belief in Drowned God.

Jon "dies" but (Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy and let the man be born) will rises "harder and stronger".

Arya may have already (metaphorically) "died. And it's sure that she is already "harder and stronger".

But it may also be that the "cold cup" (cup is another water symbol) holds some kind of poison that will make her die and "rises again, harder and stronger".

I like this theory because if it was true it would ensure Arya and Jon will live at the end.

Both will be "dead" and thus they "may never die".

And I think it's possible Arya will warg a sea animal.

Wolves are very much a Stark symbol in the books. And if there are skinchangers that warg sea animals why wouldn't Arya or Bran be able to do it?

Bran is away from the sea but Arya is not.

:bowdown: Dear Dark Heart :cheers:

I love all your ideas!

Regarding Arya's fate, Kiss'd by Fire had this awesome post I will share regarding WHOM he named in his will, and I think Kiss'd is always spot on with textual evidence:

i read an awesome post by kiss'd by fire in the Maege Mormont thread concerning Robb's will.

Here is what the upshot of her hypotheses was in her words:

"Robb clearly tells Maege and Galbart that they are to carry letters with false intel. He only talks about they will later on, when he asks them to append their seals to the document. No mention is ever made about who will take the document.

I also find it interesting that when Robb and Catelyn first talk about possible heirs, Robb is certain Arya is dead (first red bolded on the first quote); but later when he asks them to fix their seals, he only mentions Bran, Rickon, and Sansa. I think that to appease Catelyn somewhat he may have named Arya if she is alive, and if she’s not, Jon."

http://asoiaf.wester...nt/page__st__20

Scipio Africanus says "Arya along with Tyrion are the only ones pegged to live at the end of DoS. The rest face the ending of Resevoir Dogs..." http://asoiaf.wester...nt/page__st__40

So, Arya fans, these astute posters whom I trust have reached certain conclusions through analysis and coming to consensus in other threads of many posters.

I thought you might like some of these ideas. :dunce: :dunno:

[Lady Wylla Manderly]

< snip >

Great post, as always! I don't know how you people catch these details. :bowdown:

This is going to sound VERY lame, and I'm sure someone stated above... but if Jon's is the song of ICE and FIRE, then couldn't it be that his siblings/cousins will aid him at some point with EARTH (Bran) and WATER (Arya?) If you don't believe in R+L=J, you could place Jon as ICE and Melisandre as FIRE well enough.

I just think there are just too many elemental divisions for each character to be mere coincidences.

[evita mgfs]

Great post, as always! I don't know how you people catch these details. :bowdown:

This is going to sound VERY lame, and I'm sure someone stated above... but if Jon's is the song of ICE and FIRE, then couldn't it be that his siblings/cousins will aid him at some point with EARTH (Bran) and WATER (Arya?) If you don't believe in R+L=J, you could place Jon as ICE and Melisandre as FIRE well enough.

I just think there are just too many elemental divisions for each character to be mere coincidences.

:bowdown: :cheers: :agree: This is awsome! You are NOT LAME! All your ideas are well thought out, and aren't you someone whose English is not her natural language? I am not sure if it is you who knows three languages, and here you are whipping off things not even in your native tongue. You go girl! Stick them with the pointy end, I say! :fencing:

[Lady Wylla Manderly]

:bowdown: :cheers: :agree: This is awsome! You are NOT LAME! All your ideas are well thought out, and aren't you someone whose English is not her natural language? I am not sure if it is you who knows three languages, and here you are whipping off things not even in your native tongue. You go girl! Stick them with the pointy end, I say! :fencing:

I just really want something to come out of that whole ICE and FIRE, DARKNESS and LIGHT, WATER and EARTH things. If they just turn out to be myths after all, I'm going to be so pissed.

Kind of. I'm English but because of my father's work, we moved around a lot. And yeah I speak three. I'M THE BLOOD OF THE DRAGON. Three languages I must speak, one for gold, one for love, one for blood. .... I'm getting all me again. Stopping right now xD