Arya's Destiny?

[Quiet Isle]

I stand corrected. That was NOT said in the HBO series, and I had obviously missed that difference in the books. i bend the knee, ser. and NOW i have to really think about that in that light.

[R'hllor's Bastard]

Somebody has to have a happy ending! It should be Arya.

At a certain point, having your favorite characters meet the most horrible unlucky fates imaginable becomes just as cheesy and unrealistic as having the hero always win.

Im DONE with ASOIAF if I read the chapter where Arya dies!!

[Quiet Isle]

ok,,,,, but Ned's been wrong before and he hasn't seen women come into their power. .... i do NOT think Arya will be Queen. I think she would find that laughable. I do think Sansa will. but god how i love arya.

[ARYa_Nym]

Oh, and the Ghost of High Heart's lines to Arya haven't really been discussed yet.

"I see you," she whispered. "I see you, wolf child. Blood child. I thought it was the lord who smelled of death . . . " She began to sob, her little body shaking. "You are cruel to come to my hill, cruel. I gorged on grief at Summerhall, I need none of yours. Begone from here, dark heart. Begone!"

She calls her dark heart and blood child. Now Arya continuing to kill after that and joining the FM could cover that but it could also mean that she's going to do something that will make her even more grey.

Somebody has to have a happy ending! It should be Arya.

At a certain point, having your favorite characters meet the most horrible unlucky fates imaginable becomes just as cheesy and unrealistic as having the hero always win.

Im DONE with ASOIAF if I read the chapter where Arya dies!!

I think if it does happen he's going to do it near the end of ADoS because the line is interpreted to be just before spring. I think Arya as a Frodo like figure where she leaves her home and previous identity behind could be a way to get around this ending and still have a bittersweet ending for her. Queen Nymeria didn't leave her pack behind but she left her home so I see this as a possibility.

Although some may prefer that she comes back to being Arya. She helps the Starks regain their power and gets her revenge only to die alone while they live on. It could be bittersweet because the second life is considered the sweetest if we assume that Nymeria is still alive at that point. Arya is able to hunt and avenge herself for so long until her presence is faded from Nymeria and she gets the true death.

[evita mgfs]

Oh, and the Ghost of High Heart's lines to Arya haven't really been discussed yet.

She calls her dark heart and blood child. Now Arya continuing to kill after that and joining the FM could cover that but it could also mean that she's going to do something that will make her even more grey.

I think if it does happen he's going to do it near the end of ADoS because the line is interpreted to be just before spring. I think Arya as a Frodo like figure where she leaves her home and previous identity behind could be a way to get around this ending and still have a bittersweet ending for her. Queen Nymeria didn't leave her pack behind but she left her home so I see this as a possibility.

Although some may prefer that she comes back to being Arya. She helps the Starks regain their power and gets her revenge only to die alone while they live on. It could be bittersweet because the second life is considered the sweetest if we assume that Nymeria is still alive at that point. Arya is able to hunt and avenge herself for so long until her presence is faded from Nymeria and she gets the true death.

If Arya must die, I take heart in the fact that she will live on as Nymeria, if her direwolf outlives her, as V6S takes One Eye as his final life, and as I believe the old Stark Kings of Winter and Lords of yon also warged their wolves for a final life.

Then when Arya's Nym dies, Arya will become part of the roots of trees, and she will be with Bran and her family forever and ever!

[ARYa_Nym]

If Arya must die, I take heart in the fact that she will live on as Nymeria, if her direwolf outlives her, as V6S takes One Eye as his final life, and as I believe the old Stark Kings of Winter and Lords of yon also warged their wolves for a final life.

Then when Arya's Nym dies, Arya will become part of the roots of trees, and she will be with Bran and her family forever and ever!

Personally, I don't like those theories because most of them have Arya/Nymeria becoming one of the remaining Starks' pet. More specifically Sansa.

ETA: I think it's dehumanizing. She's not a dog. Why should her purpose in the story be to how useful she is to one of the other major characters? She's not supporting or a side kick.

Is it just singers and greenseers that become part of the trees or wargs in general? I got the impression that only Bran can but I could be wrong there. I've also entertained the possibility that GRRM might kill off magic in the end. Restoring the balance could mean that but this is just a theory.

[Grail King]

..that Sansa will be Queen of the North

. . . and that FM Arya will kill her.

I don't think she'd do her killing in her own face, I just think she'd get close as Arya, pass her hand over her face the way Jaqen did and turn into someone else, then turn back into Arya, making the "perpetrator" literally disappear.

This is a very elaborate crackpot, as you can see.

So you want Arya to be a Kin Slayer?

None of these kids did anything to warrant what they ended up with, I like Sansa more than Arya because I see her as more realistic, but I like all the Starks as a whole period!

As part of this post I see all the Starks as a Lone Wolf not just any one of them, I think Neds line of the lone wolf dies and the pack survives is more stating that together the Starks will survive, but if they go their separate ways for their own desire for power or revenge the house will perish.

GRRM said ALL the Starks will be important, I take this to mean for the survival of the land ( though most of Westeros doesn't deserve saving ) and house Stark so I see this hating of one sister or another ( not saying you are hating ) is really counter to what will be needed for this house to survive .

Each one of these kids are undergoing a specialized form of education , a future Nostradamus in Bran, a possible bad-ass warrior in Rickon ( of course we don't know much of his education ), a possible leader in Jon Snow, Spy-assassin in Arya, and a politician - diplomat with Sansa, the two sisters together would bring something House Stark has been lacking along with Bran's God like abilities; this house is well respected and feared in the North, so maybe it's time for the South to learn why also.

In the end the bittersweet may be that Rickon or another stark is North and the rest go their separate ways as home is a sad memory for them.

Also each one is A Stark to the bone, some outwardly show it others more internal but all of them think of home and family, I wouldn't want to be on the bad side of any of these Starks.

[the titan of westeros]

Somewhere in GOT jon tells her that "the longer she hides the sterner the penance. You'll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers. Foreshadowing i think so. Sadly i think she may well die before winter is through.

[Grail King]

Oh, and the Ghost of High Heart's lines to Arya haven't really been discussed yet.

She calls her dark heart and blood child. Now Arya continuing to kill after that and joining the FM could cover that but it could also mean that she's going to do something that will make her even more grey.

I think if it does happen he's going to do it near the end of ADoS because the line is interpreted to be just before spring. I think Arya as a Frodo like figure where she leaves her home and previous identity behind could be a way to get around this ending and still have a bittersweet ending for her. Queen Nymeria didn't leave her pack behind but she left her home so I see this as a possibility.

Although some may prefer that she comes back to being Arya. She helps the Starks regain their power and gets her revenge only to die alone while they live on. It could be bittersweet because the second life is considered the sweetest if we assume that Nymeria is still alive at that point. Arya is able to hunt and avenge herself for so long until her presence is faded from Nymeria and she gets the true death.

My little crack pot:

I always thought one more Stark may die ( Arya, Jon or Bran ) and they live on in their wolf but the wolf ends up by Sansa's side in the end.

[ARYa_Nym]

Somewhere in GOT jon tells her that the longer she hides the more sewing she'll have to do and come the spring thaw they'll find her body frozen with a needle between her fingers. Foreshadowing i think so. Sadly i think she may well die before winter is through.

That line is the worst along with her telling Elmar I hope your princess dies when she was really referring to herself. Syrio calling her dead girl. The Ghost saying that she smells of death. Ned giving Arya specifically the speech and Arya calling herself a lone wolf. Comparison to Lyanna who died young.

I still hold out that the death could be metaphorical though whether she's dead inside or her identity as Arya is dead.

My little crack pot:

I always thought one more Stark may die ( Arya, Jon or Bran ) and they live on in their wolf but the wolf ends up by Sansa's side in the end.

I don't think that Nymeria is returning home due to comparisons to Queen Nymeria who never returned home. I could be wrong though but the parallels are strong.

Besides there was already a line about getting Sansa a dog and there are more direwolves in Westeros if she wants one.

Since Arya is one of his favorites I'm skeptical that he would have her ending the series as someone's pet.

[Zupoleon]

Also each one is A Stark to the bone, some outwardly show it others more internal but all of them think of home and family, I wouldn't want to be on the bad side of any of these Starks.

Especially Rickon ;)

I agree with one of the posters above that having Arya (or any Stark for that matter) live through Nym as Sansa's pet would be very demeaning.

Each one of these kids are undergoing a specialized form of education , a future Nostradamus in Bran, a possible bad-ass warrior in Rickon ( of course we don't know much of his education ), a possible leader in Jon Snow, Spy-assassin in Arya, and a politician - diplomat with Sansa, the two sisters together would bring something House Stark has been lacking along with Bran's God like abilities; this house is well respected and feared in the North, so maybe it's time for the South to learn why also.

These kids are being groomed for special / important things; whether any of them die before their time is yet to be seen, but to have any of them living on as a direwolf pet would make their life experiences kind of pointless...

[Florina Laufeyson]

By George (heh), I think you've got it!

I wrote this upthread:

That prediction seems to relate so well to Arya's abandonment of the FM: she knows that there will be consequences to being absent without leave, the question is, will she girl up and face them once she's done doing what she has to do, or will she hide until she has to face the ultimate consequence?

I love it! (pats Florina and herself on the back).

Yeah i dont think they will say "oh now you can leave." No. She knows too much. Its hard to say what she will do here.

*Pats Sand Snake*

Certainly Jaqen had more than your average prisoner-of-the-black-cells interest in her. Of course, Arya's act of running back into a fire to help the chained prisoners was spectacularly brave. (Perhaps I think that because I'm spectacularly afraid of fire.) Whatever . . . Jaquen knew, somehow, that she was Arya of House Stark, yet he still gave her the iron coin and, more importantly, he allowed her to see him change faces. How often do you think a FM lets an outsider see him perform his magic? I suspect he knew she'd be hooked.

It's my crackpot theory that Jaquen wanted to recruit her because she's Arya of House Stark, not in spite of it. It seems to me that having an FM who can infiltrate the highest circle of Westerosi aristocracy might be damn handy. A mole in skirts, or whatever Arya will be wearing eventually.

We can only hope. :rolleyes:

I dunno. I think Jaqen took interest in Arya because she was obviously already hiding her true identity and showed a lot of courage in the face of adversity. How he knew about her real identity is unclear. Perhaps he heard things in the Cells or some junk. His changing his face in front of her and giving her the coin and teaching her the words, meant to me that he saw her as a potential candidate for the Faceless Men order.

I agree with one of the posters above that having Arya (or any Stark for that matter) live through Nym as Sansa's pet would be very demeaning.

Not only demeaning but really cheesy and ridiculous. :dunno:

[evita mgfs]

Personally, I don't like those theories because most of them have Arya/Nymeria becoming one of the remaining Starks' pet. More specifically Sansa.

ETA: I think it's dehumanizing. She's not a dog. Why should her purpose in the story be to how useful she is to one of the other major characters? She's not supporting or a side kick.

Is it just singers and greenseers that become part of the trees or wargs in general? I got the impression that only Bran can but I could be wrong there. I've also entertained the possibility that GRRM might kill off magic in the end. Restoring the balance could mean that but this is just a theory.

Well, I confess, I have been dabbling over in the Heresy threads, :blushing: and I had been muddling through the theory, mine so this is just IMO, and remember, I am LAME at seeing the BIG PICTURE of things, so I presented an idea about the spirits of the ravens connecting with the weirwoods - and where the spirits of the dead Starks are "hiding", stored, (I have no good verb here), so I was told that the Stark spirits were in the roots of trees, in the weirwoods, not in the ravens that Bran rides. :dunce:

But it is a muddle. If the "bones remember", I am reasoning that for the Stark Kings of Winter and Lords of WF in the crypts to rise, their spirits need to be returned to their bones. IMO, I thought the ravens were at WF to do just this with the Bolton clan violating the Laws of Hospitality [with a nod to Homer's great epics Iliad and Odyssey.) During the mummer's farce of a wedding in front of the very heart tree where Ned cleaned Ice, Ramsay marries Jeyne Poole, an obvious imposter pretending to be Arya of House Stark - and who gives her away is the ward who was a turncloak adoptive brother and son, betraying the wolves who fostered him. This is what Bran sees when he looks through the weirwood's face with a smile, the murder of ravens flocked to the weirwood limbs quorking at the abomination they must bear witness to.

Now, if that does not anger the old gods and send Bran on a vengeance to awake the dead, I do not know what else will, and I am being sarcastic.

So I thought Bran would send the ravens to the crypts, which Howland Reed, IMO, may have instructed Lady Dustin to have the crypt opened, for the Reeds are closer to the earth, the water, the trees, and they remember what the FM knew now long forgotten in WF. Lady Dustin lives closer to the Neck, so in my crackpot universe, I thought he could have communicated to Lady D. That was my theory.

But, I was then told no - that the spirits of the Starks are in the heart tree of Winterfell, [and IMO, where "Winter" ilterally and figurately FELL"] .

They went on to explain that what will awaken the Stark spirits is king's blood, specifically the blood sacrifice of one Theon Greyjoy in front of the heart tree, where his blood will feed the roots of trees all through the weirnet, and give it great power to return the spirits to the bones and remains in the crypts of WF. IMO, it is the violation of the laws of hospitality that breaks the ward that keeps the souls contained. IMO, the ward must break before the spirits can return, and these laws may be part of the pact made by the FM.

Now, do you want to hear my theory that HR is sitting on his own ww throne in the waters Watching as well. That is why we have not seen him for years and years.

I do not think I suggested that Arya will become a pet. I meant that she will live out her days warged as Nymeria, the wolf queen leading her pack if she dies, that is, with Needle in her hand. I was trying to make Kara feel better - for she does not like to hear about Arya dying with Needle in her hand. And it is not my favorite thought, either. :dunno:

I am not a Sansa hater either. I do not think Arya as Nym would ever allow herself to be tamed again. She is not a leash dog. She is a direwolf - and all the direwolves really need to have some freedom to hunt and be wolves, not chained within castle walls. So the idea of Arya as pet wolf to master Sansa seems not a very nice closure for Arya's arc at all.

I also think, at times, and it is just IMO, that Martin devises a way as an author to separate Arya and Sansa from their wolves. They were going to KL, and direwolves would not be a good thing there, and they would have gotten into much trouble. Imagine Nym watching Syrio and Arya water dancing? (My dogs, even though gentle with a soft bite, will even step between my husband and me when he kisses me - and they grab his hand in their teeth but they do not press down. I have goldens though, not a wolf).

And just for kicks and giggles, I like to imagine what Nym would have done with Ser Ilyn Payne when he lopped Ned's head off? Look at how Summer takes on Bran's anger when Jojen pesters Bran about his wolf dreams? Summer chases Meera and Jojen up a tree, and even Shaggydog joins in, picking up on Summer/Bran's anger. Bran has to call Hodor to chase off the direwolves so the Reeds can get down.

If Nym was with Arya and they watched what happened, how would Nym have reacted?

So, in my thinking, and it is totally my weird thinking when I look at Martin as the author making plot decisions regarding his arcs, he needed to separate the girls from their wolves for plot reasons AS WELL AS very literary and very symbolic reasons. :dunno:

[ARYa_Nym]

<snip>

Oh, I didn't think that you were implying that. It's just a theory that is periodically mentioned.

Yes I agree. Both Arya and Nymeria would prefer to be able to run and roam free rather than being domesticated and tamed.That's definitely better for Nymeria since she is at heart a wild animal and not a domesticated dog.

I imagine that she would now have these feelings even more since Nymeria has been living in the wild and is quite feral. She is in charge. Kind of like an alpha female. She would have to want to change and/or give that up.

I read the heresy threads from time to time. I like some of the ideas.

[The Nite Wolf]

The textual evidence that I found to prove Arya can see through the glamor, or the smoke and mirrors illusion created by the faceless men’s magic, occurs in DwD. “Arya seated herself in a weirwood chair with a face of ebony. Bloody sores held no terror for her now. She had been too long in the House of Black and White to be afraid of a false face” (836).

Also, in DwD, Arya recognize that Cassomo the Conjurer does not perform true magic. Arya sees through his “sleight of hand” trick of swallowing mice and having them come out his ears. She tells him that what he does is not magic – the mice are really running up his sleeve to his ears (725), This suggests that Arya differentiates between sleight of hand as an illusion, or stage trick, and the true magic of face changing, the gift of Him of Many Faces.

Hope this helps. :dunno:

It certainly does, thanks a lot!

I was particularly interested by Arya's ability to identify Cassomo's "magic" as slights of hand. I wonder whether the audience was exceptionally dim-witted or if the tricks were particularly convincing. ;) Though perhaps because they expected to see magic, that is what their eyes saw. Arya, during her training with Syrio, was taught to see beyond the surface of a situation. Either way, very interesting.

And as for the Ghost of High Heart, though the phrase "blood child" is more than likely a reference to the metaphorical blood on her hands, I've also wondered whether she might have been referring to Arya's stint with the FM and the "blood magic" that they employ. Just something that came to me the other day. Any thoughts?

[James Arryn]

. . . and that FM Arya will kill her.

I don't think she'd do her killing in her own face, I just think she'd get close as Arya, pass her hand over her face the way Jaqen did and turn into someone else, then turn back into Arya, making the "perpetrator" literally disappear.

This is a very elaborate crackpot, as you can see.

One thing to love about this place: the phrase 'in her own face' requires no elaboration.

[Grail King]

That line is the worst along with her telling Elmar I hope your princess dies when she was really referring to herself. Syrio calling her dead girl. The Ghost saying that she smells of death. Ned giving Arya specifically the speech and Arya calling herself a lone wolf. Comparison to Lyanna who died young.

I still hold out that the death could be metaphorical though whether she's dead inside or her identity as Arya is dead.

I don't think that Nymeria is returning home due to comparisons to Queen Nymeria who never returned home. I could be wrong though but the parallels are strong.

Besides there was already a line about getting Sansa a dog and there are more direwolves in Westeros if she wants one.

Since Arya is one of his favorites I'm skeptical that he would have her ending the series as someone's pet.

I'm not thinking of Nymeria as someones pet, but as a protector of her family, to Sansa it be remembrance of her little sister, of course I said crackpot I want them all on top of course may not happen.

[David Selig]

Why do people want Sansa to be Queen In the North when Bran and Rickon are still alive and Rickon will hopefully return soon?

Sansa is older than Bran and Rickon and gender discrimination is unfair.

[ARYa_Nym]

I'm not thinking of Nymeria as someones pet, but as a protector of her family, to Sansa it be remembrance of her little sister, of course I said crackpot I want them all on top of course may not happen.

There are bannermen and bodyguards for that.

Why should Nymeria abandon her position as queen of her pack to be subordinate to someone else? She is free now. Why would she want to be a guard dog?

[Lady Wylla Manderly]

Sansa is older than Bran and Rickon and gender discrimination is unfair.

As a woman, I agree. But thinking by modern standarts (or Dornish standarts) is very unrealistic, even for ASOIAF. Northmen are very traditional. They resisted the new religion and some still practice the First Night. What do you Queen-In-The-Northers think is going to happen? They will see Sansa and Rickon, but will be impressed by Sansa so much that they will abandon their 10,000+ years old traditions? That's likely.