Melisandre and Gandalf

[SeanF]

Melisandre has been compared to Gandalf, even by GRRM.

While there are some similarities, the differences between the two characters seem far greater to me.

Similarities:-

Both have great magical powers.

Both can be kind and charming.

Both have humanity's best interests at heart.

Both of them serve, and advise ,a prince who they wish to place on what they see as his rightful throne

Both are willing to defer to that prince, and avoid actions that could undermine his standing.

But the differences are enormous in my view.

Melisandre has no doubts about the rightness of her actions. Gandalf shows a far greater degree of humility

Melisandre flaunts her magical power, Gandalf veils his (indeed, is specifically charged by the Valar to do so)

Melisandre dominates her followers. Gandalf specifically avoids coercing people into a particular course of action, but rather seeks to persuade them.

Melisandre is totally ruthless. For her, any means justifies the ends that she's pursuing. She's quite prepared to use black magic to kill people, and burn people alive, to advance Stannis' cause. Gandalf is prepared to kill, if necessary, but only as a last resort.

Melisandre can be kind and generous, but she is far less compassionate than Gandalf. Gandalf pities even Sauron's slaves. Melisandre has no compunction about destroying those she sees as servants of the Great Other.

Melisandre is intolerant of all other religions. There is no evidence that Gandalf ever tries to coerce people into worshipping a particular deity.

Gandalf has sufficient humility to know that it would be disastrous for him to claim the One Ring for his own. Either Sauron would destroy him, or he would destroy Sauron, and then become an even worse tyrant. Melisandre would never had any qualms about claiming the One Ring for herself.

[ab aeterno]

I'll have to agree with you here. I think Gandalf is just to far removed from Melisandre for it to be an effective comparison. For what it's worth, I think that Saruman is a more accurate comparison (without necessarily making any value judgement about Mel.)

[The Dornishman's Wife]

I think the comparison Gandalf / Mel is interesting, because on the very surface they have both assumed similar roles (mage-advisor to the supposedly redeeming hero), but fill them in a totally different way. They have disparate characters which leads them to take an almost opposite approach to their save-the-world quest.

On the other hand, both died but didn't let that stop them. :leaving:

[Thendel]

I'll have to agree with you here. I think Gandalf is just to far removed from Melisandre for it to be an effective comparison. For what it's worth, I think that Saruman is a more accurate comparison (without necessarily making any value judgement about Mel.)

How so? Saruman becomes corrupted by the lure of power, and seeks to set himself above his order and rule over Middle Earth. He uses the power of his voice to dominate the minds of others, not just influence them. Melisandre seems positively pure and humble in comparison to that - their respective choices in life are quite different.

[A wilding]

The Gandalf - Melisandre parallel is clear but that does not mean they are the same. They are both powerful magic users who are trying to save the world, but we are obviously expected to see the large differences in the way they go about it.

It is GRRM subverting a trope once more.

[SeanF]

I'll have to agree with you here. I think Gandalf is just to far removed from Melisandre for it to be an effective comparison. For what it's worth, I think that Saruman is a more accurate comparison (without necessarily making any value judgement about Mel.)

How so? Saruman becomes corrupted by the lure of power, and seeks to set himself above his order and rule over Middle Earth. He uses the power of his voice to dominate the minds of others, not just influence them. Melisandre seems positively pure and humble in comparison to that - their respective choices in life are quite different.

We're encouraged to consider that Saruman's motives for seeking power were initially good ones (indeed, so were Sauron's). They wanted to rule humanity for humanity's own good.

To that extent, the comparison with Melisandre is a fair one. I think that Melisandre has become somewhat corrupted in the pursuit of her noble goals, and would become thoroughly corrupted if she had absolute power.

[SeanF]

The Gandalf - Melisandre parallel is clear but that does not mean they are the same. They are both powerful magic users who are trying to save the world, but we are obviously expected to see the large differences in the way they go about it.

It is GRRM subverting a trope once more.

Only partly subverting it, I think. I think she's what Gandalf would be like if Gandalf lacked humility. OTOH, a complete subversion of the trope would see her emerging aas a character like Bayaz, in the First Law, utterly selfish and cruel.

[Lion of Judah]

Mel is a religious zealot and Gandalf was not, the way they went about their stated goal of combating ultimate evil are drastically different. Gandalf was effective, we have yet to see how effective Mel's methods will be.

[ab aeterno]

How so? Saruman becomes corrupted by the lure of power, and seeks to set himself above his order and rule over Middle Earth. He uses the power of his voice to dominate the minds of others, not just influence them. Melisandre seems positively pure and humble in comparison to that - their respective choices in life are quite different.

We're encouraged to consider that Saruman's motives for seeking power were initially good ones (indeed, so were Sauron's). They wanted to rule humanity for humanity's own good.

To that extent, the comparison with Melisandre is a fair one. I think that Melisandre has become somewhat corrupted in the pursuit of her noble goals, and would become thoroughly corrupted if she had absolute power.

This is what I was referring to. It's not a perfect comparison, but I think it is better than the Gandalf one, personally.

[SeanF]

Mel is a religious zealot and Gandalf was not, the way they went about their stated goal of combating ultimate evil are drastically different. Gandalf was effective, we have yet to see how effective Mel's methods will be.

In fairness, Gandalf's strategy was very nearly disastrous. Sending the Ring into Mordor was a horrible gamble, even if every other alternative was worse. And if Mordor's armies had triumphed in Gondor, and Dale, the subsequent destruction of the One Ring would have been a very pyrrhic victory. Gandalf needed a huge amount of luck (or Divine intervention) to defeat Sauron.

[SeanF]

.

On the other hand, both died but didn't let that stop them. :leaving:

I'm pretty sure that Melisandre has not died, but her magic has made radical physical changes to her.

[Lion of Judah]

In fairness, Gandalf's strategy was very nearly disastrous. Sending the Ring into Mordor was a horrible gamble, even if every other alternative was worse. And if Mordor's armies had triumphed in Gondor, and Dale, the subsequent destruction of the One Ring would have been a very pyrrhic victory. Gandalf needed a huge amount of luck (or Divine intervention) to defeat Sauron.

Yup it was a gutsy decision that happened to work out, but it was potentially disastrous.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

Sending the Ring into Mordor was a horrible gamble, even if every other alternative was worse.

every alternative I'd say... :cool4:

I'm pretty sure that Melisandre has not died, but her magic has made radical physical changes to her.

Yeah, I have to admit I actually think the same, it was just too good a speculation to pass up for a Mel / Gandalf thread.

[SeanF]

It's debateable to what extent Melisandre remains human. She no longer requires food, and is close to not requiring sleep; she's prolonged her life artificially, at the same time as retaining a beautiful, youthful, appearance, and gives birth to shadow babies when she has sex.

[Mikkel]

It's debateable to what extent Melisandre remains human. She no longer requires food, and is close to not requiring sleep; she's prolonged her life artificially, at the same time as retaining a beautiful, youthful, appearance, and gives birth to shadow babies when she has sex.

I believe that the Shadow Babies (as it were), was the goal of the sex, rather than the sex itself being the goal and the Shadow Babies being incidental. As such, there's no evidence either way of Shadow Babies always coming about after a roll in the hay with ol' Mel. Not that I think it's in her character to have sex "for fun", everything seems to be for a purpose.

[SeanF]

That's true enough. I think she does offer Stannis comfort sex, which doesn't lead to the creation of shadow babies unless she wills it (hence her comment about her bed being empty after Stannis left the Wall).

[Ingelheim]

LOL, Gandalf is the most philosophical and good wizard ever, and Mel burns men to her crazy God. We cannot compare them.

[Mikkel]

That's true enough. I think she does offer Stannis comfort sex, which doesn't lead to the creation of shadow babies unless she wills it (hence her comment about her bed being empty after Stannis left the Wall).

Agreed, apart from the creation of SB's, Mel's certainly not ignorant of the fact that having sex with Stannis might (might!) increase her influence with him. Of course, given his nature, it's also possible it'll eventually turn into resentment. Whether there's anything in it for Mel, other than purely practical concerns, is not clear - even though we do have a POV from her, I don't believe she thinks much about that.

[Light a wight tonight]

Melisandre compares to Gandalf about like ASoIaF compares to LoTR: not very well. Mel is less powerful, more error-prone, and generally more fun than Gandalf. Where Gandalf has the Balrog, Mel has, who, Stannis? Selyse? Maybe later she battles the Great Other, but I see a stronger R'hullor follower than Mel being able to defeat him/her.

I only detect a surface parallelism.

[Mikkel]

Well, Gandalf is a servant of the Secret Fire, Mel's being rather extrovert about her fiery tendencies, but there is a link (or sorts) there.