Bran: Champion of "the Other"

[Real Heir of Bear Island]

If that is so, why where the wights trying to kill them and prevent them from entering the cave? I would be very surprised if there was that kind of twist. We already got one with the wildlings. We thought they were bad for 2 books but turns out they are just trying to survive the others.

[Little Wing]

If that is so, why where the wights trying to kill them and prevent them from entering the cave? I would be very surprised if there was that kind of twist. We already got one with the wildlings. We thought they were bad for 2 books but turns out they are just trying to survive the others.

As Black Wolf Smith has already stated:

The wights are guarding the around where the CoTF live, to keep men from getting to them, and getting any help. The wights don't see the difference between a greenseer and "hero" whose asking for help. Its not Bran the wights are trying to keep away, its men.

[NitzanLeo]

The basic thinking is based on this passage from Old Nan's story:

They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding their pale dead horses and leading hosts of the slain. All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and suckling babes found no pity in them...

“Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken these lands from the children of the forest. Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch. So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions.

This is interpreted as meaning that a significant part (but not all) of Westeros was overrun - logic would suggest as far as the Neck. The Last Hero then set out into these "dead lands" to seek the Children.

What happened next we don't know other than that the Children saved him when he was being hunted by the white shadows. Failing any mention of an army of Children this is taken to mean they gave him shelter down below.

So far so good. Where heresy comes into it is through speculating that the Children then brokered a cease-fire, dividing the North with the Wall; and so ceding those broken kingdoms beyond it to the realm of Ice while that part to the south of the Wall was given into the stewardship of the Starks. This also explains the Thenns and the Wildlings as the descendants of the survivors of those broken kingdoms, left on the "wrong" side of the truce line.

You just pretty much blew my mind with this. Really, you did. I have to tell you, this is the first piece I read that made me look at the Others as an actual civilization and a race, not just as monsters, even though it was suggested to me many times. Really, good work. :bowdown:

[Black Crow]

You just pretty much blew my mind with this. Really, you did. I have to tell you, this is the first piece I read that made me look at the Others as an actual civilization and a race, not just as monsters, even though it was suggested to me many times. Really, good work. :bowdown:

My pleasure. If this intrigues you take yourself over to the Heresy thread on the main ADwD forum, currently in its 28th iteration.

[armidil0]

This will be heresy in nature, so be for warned, and is from more then one theory and only the bare bones about the theories.

So the Last Hero went to the children for help during the long night. A peace was made between the Others and the FM with the help of the CoTF. The NW has lost its true prupose. The Starks(and other FM) have forgotten their part in the treaty. Since the treaty has been broken, the Others are going to something about it. The Others don't want the CoTF to get in between men and themselves. The wights are guarding the around where the CoTF live, to keep men from getting to them, and getting any help. The wights don't the difference between a greenseer and "hero" whose asking for help. Its not Bran the wights are trying to keep away, its men.

My problem is that Bran dreamt of the Others. They had spires of ice like spears, and he almost landed and died on them. There were bones of other "dreamers" too, who I think were other greenseers that couldn't be saved. (they dreamt too far and died for it). So I think by then they knew who Bran was, and wanted to stop him from gaining any more power and knowledge.

[Black Crow]

At no point does Bran dream of the Others. The dreamers impaled on the spires of ice (in an otherwise empty wasteland) were those who had failed to fly. There were no other bones - but there are plenty in the caves of the Children.

[armidil0]

At no point does Bran dream of the Others. The dreamers impaled on the spires of ice (in an otherwise empty wasteland) were those who had failed to fly. There were no other bones - but there are plenty in the caves of the Children.

I took Dreamers who failed to fly as potential Greenseers who ended up dead. This all while he was in (or past) The Heart of Winter. I'm assuming Ice creatures would hail from the heart of winter. And that the spires of ice, either figuratively or literally, would be associated with the Others. The CotF, I think we can safely assume, can't live in a wasteland of ice and snow. It's in their name, forests. They need wildlife around to thrive. We don't know much about the Others, though there are lots of crackpots and theories, but pretty much what we do know of them is that they are basically ice incarnate, and the best bet for the race to live in that environment. And while Bran was 'dreaming' of that environment, the best bet for what he would see.

[TheTizer]

@BlackCrow Why are The Others attacking now then? As @BlackWolfSmith says it was probably that men somehow broke the truce, how would they have done this? The NW haven't really transgressed have they?

[Pharoh]

@BlackCrow Why are The Others attacking now then? As @BlackWolfSmith says it was probably that men somehow broke the truce, how would they have done this? The NW haven't really transgressed have they?

I am not pro Bran=champion but i would guess its because they want an undead champion, you know, considering they hate the living and stuff

[Black Crow]

"Here is what George said, in one e-mail: 'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous."

They're not dead, but they are players in the Game of Ice and Fire and it may turn out to be a moot point as to whether Dany and her amazing dragons will save Westeros from the Others or whether the Others will save Westeros from the dragons and the endless summer hopefully esposed by Master Benero

[armidil0]

Yeah, Other=/=zombies. They are not dead creatures, I just don't agree that they are in league with the CotF. They might have been CotF way back before they splintered, but I'm pretty sure they changed fundamentally since then, and bear little or no love for the CotF that they would probably feel 'betrayed' them. That's why they would not want Bran alive, he's with the CotF. He could be an ally to them if they captured him, but how likely would Bran agree with that? They just don't want anybody to have the greenseer abilities because that makes it slightly harder for them to do what they want.

It doesn't make the CotF the good guys in anyway. They are a dying race, and probably want to survive a little longer, who wouldn't? They'll probably get Bran to do something morally grey, just for personal gains.

[NitzanLeo]

"Here is what George said, in one e-mail: 'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous."

They're not dead, but they are players in the Game of Ice and Fire and it may turn out to be a moot point as to whether Dany and her amazing dragons will save Westeros from the Others or whether the Others will save Westeros from the dragons and the endless summer hopefully esposed by Master Benero

Again, ser, you blow me away. 'Nuff said.

[Black Wolf Smith]

Thank you both Little Wing and Black Crow for your helpful answers.

Sorry if I am being slow/going over old ground, but a few follow up questions then:

1. If I understand Black Crow's post correctly, man's betrayal of the pact lies in the fact that with the Andals, the Rhoynar and eventually Aegon the Conqueror flooding into Westeros, much of what is South of the Wall¹ fell within the control of non-Starks. But were the Starks ever in control of the southern parts of Westeros? My understanding of the King of Winter/King of the North myth/history, is that the Starks never controlled lands below the Neck, and certainly not below the Riverlands, no?
   
   
2. Little Wing mentions the way the Starks treated the Night's King as a possible cause of the pact's breach. I can see that this makes sense - the Night's King was a Stark and a son-in-law to the Others² (as it were), so I can imagine how the Others might be cheesed off when other Starks came and murdered/dispossessed him. But is a wrongdoing towards a single person really cause enough for a (potentially) monumental invasion thousands of yrs later?
   
   
3. In other words, why should the Others care who controls the realms of men South of the Wall³, so long as the men don't encroach on their fiefdom North of the Wall?
   

Again, sorry if I am being slow or treading over much-visited ground⁴.

Black Crow words and knowledge on the subjects are both far beyond mine, but I will give it a shot. Please note that herectic do not all belief the same things, and there are many different theories about everything.

1. The Andals may be a big reason the treaty was broken.

A. By changing the culture of both Westeros, and the North. Just think about the written word alone. The FM passed knowledge down by word of mouth. Once writing became a part of life, old knowledge was lost/ forgotten.

B. The Wall. It was manned by the FM, but now it is mostly Andals (and not the best of them) that have the Watch.

2. Many do think that the NK was the elder brother of the Stark of WF, and therefore became a Kinslayer. There is also a lesser theory that along with a the "Must always be a Stark at WF, there must be a Stark on the Wall( which is why so many Starks have been LC of the watch.) Lest not forget that around 100 years ago, all the "Stark Men" died, and left only women and children. It is highly likely that the Starks don't know all they are suppose to know.

3. It could be as simply as the Others did never want to stop the war, since it seems like they started it. It could be that the numbers of Wildlings have grown to much. If could be a lot of little things, not enough info on the why.

4. No worries. We are now on heresy 29, and have been going thru a thread a week the last month. By the time I read whats going on, the topic has changed, often more then once. Yesterday, when I checked the thread(after having logged off at 5am) there were 64 post. Your welcome to come to the Grey side of things.

[NitzanLeo]

2. Many do think that the NK was the elder brother of the Stark of WF, and therefore became a Kinslayer. There is also a lesser theory that along with a the "Must always be a Stark at WF, there must be a Stark on the Wall( which is why so many Starks have been LC of the watch.) Lest not forget that around 100 years ago, all the "Stark Men" died, and left only women and children. It is highly likely that the Starks don't know all they are suppose to know.

Really? I can't recall this? Care to explain?

[Black Crow]

Depends what you don't recall. The business of the Stark women is to be the subject of the next Dunk and Egg book "She Wolves of Winterfell", but it has been alluded to in the text, although I can't recall chapter and verse.

As to the Stark on the Wall business as a corollary to the Stark in Winterfell curse; this isn't specifically mentioned in text but is the only sensible explanation for why there are no other Stark families, ie: the first born inherits Winterfell (and the curse) and produces his own heir and spare(s); the heir grows up to be the next Stark in Winterfell and any others go to the Wall, where of course they don't produce any heirs.

[NitzanLeo]

I meant the part about all the Stark males dying out 100 years ago. Where was that from? Or did you mean it wasn't written in ASOIAF books?

[Black Crow]

I honestly don't remember, but I'm pretty sure its alluded to in one of the books and has been discussed in relation to Bran's vision of a pregnant woman bathing in the hot pools and begging the Old Gods for vengeance

[Sam Huxley]

I cannot see Bran controlling the Others; the Children of the Forest do have reason to not like R'Hllor because of their fires burning the weirwood trees but they have never sought to fight against the First Men or the Andals in the past, they will definitely be trying to manipulate Bran to some ends not sure what but I cant see them being an ally of the Great Other, not a chance especially with them having to ward their cave entrance and the wights looking to kill them as well. Definitely don't trust them though but I think that Bloodraven, if it is most definitely him will guide him in a good direction because from history he doesn't seem like such a bad person.

[NitzanLeo]

I see the connection, Black Crow. Not much to go on, but it's there. Though I do remember that the pregnant woman in the vision saying 'a son to avenge me', not anyone else. Still possible, though.

[Sam Huxley]

I meant the part about all the Stark males dying out 100 years ago. Where was that from? Or did you mean it wasn't written in ASOIAF books?

This is mentioned in the blue rose story, that one of the old King-Beyond-The-Walls came down and played as a bard in Winterfell and stole the only daughter of one of the Stark Lords, his only heir. They were missing for like a year and then she suddenly appeared with a bastard boy, who then ended up as the heir to Winterfell because they legitimised him