Bran: Champion of "the Other"

[aryagonnakill]

I thought it was evident that all the direwolves reflected their owner's personalities?

You are definitely correct, I'm not quoting the book but in Game of Thrones Ned reflects that Lady was the smallest and most trusting of the Direwolves, this was right after Catlyn tells him how Summer saved her and bran, Ned reflects that he should not have killed Lady. Shaggydog is always mentioned as Wild, Ghost doesn't make a sound, and Nymeria has killed mad ppl/animals.

[Black Wolf Smith]

I thought it was evident that all the direwolves reflected their owner's personalities?

True, but it seems it was more with Sansa(maybe it was only because she had her so short of time, but Arya had Nym the same amount of time) When I first read the theory it clicked w/ me. Next time you read aGoT see how Sansa and Lady acted, and you be the judge.

[Lord Davos Seaworth]

I don't understand why so many people think the Others represent pure evil... If you use the Ice and Fire to Evil and Good analogy, then that means all the Starks are evil and the dragons and Targs are pure good...

Although I would love to see a massive zombie style Other invasion in the next book, I have a good feeling the dragons will cause much more damage to Westeros then they do.

[Sam Huxley]

I don't understand why so many people think the Others represent pure evil... If you use the Ice and Fire to Evil and Good analogy, then that means all the Starks are evil and the dragons and Targs are pure good...

Just because the Starks live up north doesn't actually mean they have anything to do with the snows or the ice or winter itself, it just means that they haven't moved away from there, so the Other's could be pure evil, doesn't mean it reflects in anyway on the Starks also being evil

[Black Crow]

I don't understand why so many people think the Others represent pure evil... If you use the Ice and Fire to Evil and Good analogy, then that means all the Starks are evil and the dragons and Targs are pure good...

Although I would love to see a massive zombie style Other invasion in the next book, I have a good feeling the dragons will cause much more damage to Westeros then they do.

Will the Dragons save Westeros from the Others - or will the Others save Westeros from the Dragons

[blackwing]

Will the Dragons save Westeros from the Others - or will the Others save Westeros from the Dragons

I think both sides, ice and fire, are extremes and will bring doom if they go unchecked. In the end they will probably neuter each other. The Dragons will probably destroy the others and should some survive, the maesters will take care of them again.

[JP Dayne]

there's not a single piece of evidence that the others are plain evil, in a sadistic way.

gurm has stated in every interview that what makes his books good is the fact that there are no black and white characters

so yeah, i think op kinda has a point

[armidil0]

The Others don't have to be "evil" to not be compatible with humanity. They can have their reasons. Them and Humans can just be enemies. Both have their ups and downs.

Will the Dragons save Westeros from the Others - or will the Others save Westeros from the Dragons

Well, we have a story of Others completely destroying humanity to near extinction in the past, I don't think that was to save them from anything. And humans and dragons have lived together for centuries. If they were apocalyptic I think it should have happened by now. GrrM has said that dragons are like fire-breathing dogs (paraphrasing, you know the quote better than I do I bet). So I think that dragons aren't bad or evil, but it's the way they are used. A sword isn't evil if Ramsay wields it, it's still Ramsay that's evil. The sword doesn't really have a say in what it does.

But we do have evidence of Others not being dogs, but sentient beings. They have an agenda, and that seems to be killing humans. But like I said above. That doesn't make them evil. Just enemies.

ETA: I understand the point you were making, but I still feel that it was structured wrong. I think Nymeria and Arya are a good parallel with Dany and her dragons. Nymeria is going around killing randomly because Arya isn't around to train her and teach her what is right and wrong. While Dany's dragons are killing random people because she's not paying attention to them, teaching them what is right and wrong.

[Black Wolf Smith]

The Others don't have to be "evil" to not be compatible with humanity¹. They can have their reasons. Them and Humans can just be enemies. Both have their ups and downs.

Well, we have a story of Others completely destroying humanity to near extinction in the past², I don't think that was to save them from anything. And humans and dragons have lived together for centuries. If they were apocalyptic I think it should have happened by now. GrrM has said that dragons are like fire-breathing dogs (paraphrasing, you know the quote better than I do I bet). So I think that dragons aren't bad or evil, but it's the way they are used. A sword isn't evil if Ramsay wields it, it's still Ramsay that's evil. The sword doesn't really have a say in what it does.

But we do have evidence of Others not being dogs, but sentient beings. They have an agenda, and that seems to be killing humans. But like I said above. That doesn't make them evil. Just enemies.

ETA: I understand the point you were making, but I still feel that it was structured wrong. I think Nymeria and Arya are a good parallel with Dany and her dragons. Nymeria is going around killing randomly because Arya isn't around to train her and teach her what is right and wrong. While Dany's dragons are killing random people because she's not paying attention to them, teaching them what is right and wrong³.

1. a Good point, however the point is there should be a balance or harmony between Man and Others(Fae, CoTF, the Others) and there isn't.

2. "completely destroying humanity" is a far cry from what was happening. The Others tried to take back their lands, from invaders. Whether that was the North, parts of the North, or all of Westeros, could be debated, but men invaded the land that they lived in. Would you hold that against 1 group of men, fighting another group who invaded there lands?

3. Nice, I like it. Some of us think that Dany will never reach Westeros, but her dragons will. So what happens then? Could the Others become man's hero's? Are should the Dragons be allowed to do as the like with no one able to stop them?

[armidil0]

2. "completely destroying humanity" is a far cry from what was happening. The Others tried to take back their lands, from invaders. Whether that was the North, parts of the North, or all of Westeros, could be debated, but men invaded the land that they lived in. Would you hold that against 1 group of men, fighting another group who invaded there lands?

I mean, didn't Old Nan say that even women and children at the breast weren't spared? That's harsh. And a good way of destroying humanity if you want to. Even if you feel sympathetic to the Others cause, that's fine. I get it. I'm very empathetic myself. But they are still enemies of humanity. Everything we see of them is that they want to get rid of humans (at least beyond the Wall, but if they didn't have southron ambitions then it wouldn't be much of a story). I don't think they are going to take down the Wall, kill all those wildlings, then suddenly help everyone else out of the goodness of their heart. Or duty/whatever.

[Black Crow]

Nobody said they were the good guys, but the point is that their reported behaviour is no worse than we've seen elsewhere in Westeros, especially in the Riverlands. Old Nan's story was setting them up as the horror from the North right at the start of the series but the world has become a lot more complex since then and a lot of the early assumptions overturned.

[Alpehue]

I think we tend to lose sight of the big picture. It is "A song of ice and fire", the Starks are the kings of winter and Bran will directly oppose Dany/Targs. Jon has been defined by GRRM as a gray character, he is definitely L+R=J. The Others I have no idea about yet, they are certainly not friends of COTF or the greenseer. The world is greatly unbalanced and before the end the horn of winter (in sams possession) will bring down the wall. Bran asks the greenseer if he will walk again and he answers "no, but you will fly", I think this has to be foreshadowing to Bran and a dragon, I hope GRRM's story "the ice dragon" is more than just another story in another world. Bran isn't going to be bad by any means but he is definitely going to be in opposition to the new gods at the very least. Mel's visions are also skewed quite often so her seeing the greenseer and bran in the fire doesn't mean that they are the great other and his champion as she thought. I do believe that Bran is placing hints as the greenseer, mainly the dire wolves. My biggest questions surround the Starks, there must always be a stark in winterfell and yet (to our knowledge) there isn't currently one there.

Now done with the obvious and on to my crack pot. Mance Rayder isn't who we think. The men of the wall wouldn't foster a wildling, it is also the perfect cover for a place to get rid of someone who could jeopardize something. He is the age of Ned, Brandon, and Brynden and has some of the features that are described in the Starks. There is no way he could have snuck into Winterfell to a dinner with the king, unless, Ned arranged it. Mance seems to be doing a deed of destiny and I think it is too coincidental, my completely unfounded theory is that Mance is Brandon Stark, he took the black after the rebellion while the rest of the world assumed him dead to hide his knowledge of Jon. He has both the build and swordsmanship to fit the descriptions, along with the lack of description and evidence of his actual death. We are also told that Jon's secret lies in the Crypts of Winterfell, Lyanna doesn't really tell a lot seeing as she is dead but the absence of Brandon's body could. This is completely crazy and probably not true but I firmly believe 2 things. First that there is more to Mance Rayder than we know. Second, there is another Stark alive who we presume dead.

I love the last part, about Brandons body missing, been wondering what the Jons secret lies int he crypts ment.

[Alpehue]

I just don't get "Bran is the Great Other" theory. Why would the Other have their wights attack Bran nad his enterouge numorous times. Ambush him outside the palce where he would, in this theory, learn how to become the great other. And other seemingly stupid things if they indeed want to use him. Wouldn't it be smarter to just walk up to him, say, "hey, we're not that bad. Here's our side of the story. Help? WE'll take good care of you."

Also Bran dreams spires of ice with bones on them, which I took to be other greendreamers or greenseers that the Others killed. So why would they not kill this greenseer?

I see why your doughting that he could the the Great Other, if they attack him. But you are assuming the Others are acting as one entity, could be a small group of the Others, had a motive to stop him. It seems with humans that everytime someone agrees on something, another group disagree, i dont see why it couldent be like that with the Others as well.

[alienarea]

When Ned executed Lady, he killed a part of Sansa in Lady and a part of Lady remained in Sansa?

Ned executing Lady implies to me that he doesn't have a clue about warging.

[Karakoran]

The Children of the Forest actively fought the Others with the First Men. In fact their magic was binded into the making of the Wall. They would never train Bran if they thought for a second he'd lead the Others. Though this does beg the question of who is the Champion of the Great Other.

1. a Good point, however the point is there should be a balance or harmony between Man and Others(Fae, CoTF, the Others) and there isn't.

2. "completely destroying humanity" is a far cry from what was happening. The Others tried to take back their lands, from invaders. Whether that was the North, parts of the North, or all of Westeros, could be debated, but men invaded the land that they lived in. Would you hold that against 1 group of men, fighting another group who invaded there lands?

3. Nice, I like it. Some of us think that Dany will never reach Westeros, but her dragons will. So what happens then? Could the Others become man's hero's? Are should the Dragons be allowed to do as the like with no one able to stop them?

1. That's ridiculous. Two books left with the entire series pent up to an ultimate clash between Fire and Ice and we learn a valuable lesson about compromise and go home.

2. I remember Old Nan saying something about them sweeping through cities and kingdoms, hunting with packs of pale spiders, not to mention completely slaughtering everyone they can. Presumably absolutely no Others were even scathed until Sam managed to get lucky. They probably weren't even prevoked so much as began killing Wildlings and Night's Watchmen. When they came the last time it got so cold that women were killing their own babies because their children couldn't be fed, "And wept, and felt the tears freeze on their cheeks".

3. What? Where are you getting that from? Aside from the magical horn that controls dragons, and that the dragons are potentially the only hope for Westeros to survive, how could three dragons be a major problem? I mean come on, three of them? They might kill some people if they got loose, sure, but that's nothing compared to the Others.

Stop trying to rationalize or justify the Others. They are the ultimate evil. This is like trying to see Mordor favorably.

[Black Wolf Smith]

The Children of the Forest actively fought the Others with the First Men^1a. In fact their magic was binded into the making of the Wall^1b. They would never train Bran if they thought for a second he'd lead the Others. Though this does beg the question of who is the Champion of the Great Other^1c.

1. That's ridiculous. Two books left with the entire series pent up to an ultimate clash between Fire and Ice and we learn a valuable lesson about compromise and go home².

2. I remember Old Nan saying something about them sweeping through cities and kingdoms, hunting with packs of pale spiders, not to mention completely slaughtering everyone they can. Presumably absolutely no Others were even scathed until Sam managed to get lucky. They probably weren't even prevoked so much as began killing Wildlings and Night's Watchmen³. When they came the last time it got so cold that women were killing their own babies because their children couldn't be fed, "And wept, and felt the tears freeze on their cheeks".

3. What? Where are you getting that from? Aside from the magical horn that controls dragons, and that the dragons are potentially the only hope for Westeros to survive, how could three dragons be a major problem? I mean come on, three of them? They might kill some people if they got loose, sure, but that's nothing compared to the Others⁴.

Stop trying to rationalize or justify the Others. They are the ultimate evil. This is like trying to see Mordor favorably⁵.

1a.IIRC that is never said in the books, what is said is that the Last Hero made it to them after years of searching, and they helped end the war. Big Differents.

1b. While I agree that the CoTF magic made the Walls, I don't think we yet know, or understand why it was built.

1c. If there is a "great Other" its a Morgane like creature, and has been in the story from almost the begining.

2. I guess you did not understand what I said. I said there needs to be a balance and there isn't one. I did not say they were going to talk it out, if infact if you read this whole thread you will see that I think the Others are done with talking, it is time for action on their part.

3. Native American tribes killed/raped/ kidnaped women and children(who were from the view point invading their homeland), US Calvary gave peaceful tribes blankets with Small pox and other diseases, who were the "good guys"? Just because they killed with out mercy, doesn't mean the Other are the "bad guys" they have a differnet view point.

4. What? that the Dragons are a danger? Look at Meereen, the dragons threw ever thing in to chaso and there are theories that at least one of the dragons is laying eggs.

5. Really? When GRRM has said a thousand times, that there is no good or evil, just shades of grey, you think they are the ultimate evil?

And yes I always thought that Mordor was cool, it was so cool Led Zeppelin named it in "Ramble On" and I for one can't think of a much higher praise. FYI it was Sauron that was evil, not the land......

[Melifeather]

The Children of the Forest actively fought the Others with the First Men. In fact their magic was binded into the making of the Wall. They would never train Bran if they thought for a second he'd lead the Others. Though this does beg the question of who is the Champion of the Great Other.

1. That's ridiculous. Two books left with the entire series pent up to an ultimate clash between Fire and Ice and we learn a valuable lesson about compromise and go home.

2. I remember Old Nan saying something about them sweeping through cities and kingdoms, hunting with packs of pale spiders, not to mention completely slaughtering everyone they can. Presumably absolutely no Others were even scathed until Sam managed to get lucky. They probably weren't even prevoked so much as began killing Wildlings and Night's Watchmen. When they came the last time it got so cold that women were killing their own babies because their children couldn't be fed, "And wept, and felt the tears freeze on their cheeks".

3. What? Where are you getting that from? Aside from the magical horn that controls dragons, and that the dragons are potentially the only hope for Westeros to survive, how could three dragons be a major problem? I mean come on, three of them? They might kill some people if they got loose, sure, but that's nothing compared to the Others.

Stop trying to rationalize or justify the Others. They are the ultimate evil. This is like trying to see Mordor favorably.

While its understandable that the reader is tempted to assume the Others are against the Children, the text really does not support that. You could just as easily state that the Others are friends of the Children and that the Children asked the Others to help them rid Westeros of First Men. When the pact was achieved, the Others backed off.

[TheTizer]

'' Really? When GRRM has said a thousand times, that there is no good or evil, just shades of grey''

And how many shades of Grey? 50.........

Had to be done.

[Little Wing]

Stop trying to rationalize or justify the Others. They are the ultimate evil. This is like trying to see Mordor favorably.

Your world so shaken when someone has a different viewpoint? It says a lot about the faith you give to your own point of view... why not re-read the books before posting again, hm? ;)

[brAnthelAstgreenseer]

Will the Dragons save Westeros from the Others - or will the Others save Westeros from the Dragons

this line deserves to be another thread in itself

Edit: Read every post on this thread excellent everyone... :drunk: