Heresy 28

[Black Crow]

Like if a wolf bred with a dragon?

Would that give us a winged wolf or an ice dragon? Jon Snow or Bran Stark? Which one is which...

Jojen Reed to Bran in Clash of Kings: "A warg is what you are. You can't change that, Bran, you can't deny it or push it away. You are the winged wolf, but you will never fly." Jojen got up and walked to the window. "Unless you open your eye." He put two fingers together and poked Bran in the forehead, hard"

[Greggles]

Bran is god-like with his ability to watch the past and present through the weirwood, and there must be yet to be read about powers, because what good is it if all you can do is watch?

By the way, can I have a "woop woop", 1000th post, everyone! :D

Whoa. I think just being able to watch the past and the present is hugely powerful all by itself. Think of all the lies and secrets being kept and dying off with the characters. Now imagine what you can do with that knowledge (caveat: being able to act on it, or at least communicate that knowledge)

On the 1k posts. I have a little post-envy.

[Boromir-Bloodstorm]

The heresies are based on the belief that what we were told in AGoT was mince; that Jon is not going to turn out to be Azor Ahai and will not ride dragons to victory over the Others to earn his place on the Iron Throne.

What do you think is going to happen then?

Look, I know and agree with GRRMs way of making characters more realistic and stories better by having morally ambiguous characters and plot lines. But a story is still a story. A story must have a point, it must tell a tale.

Let's say, Cersei ends up killing every single other high lord in Westeros and marrys Myrcella to Tommen and rules through them and that is the end of the story. In the real world, such a thing is entirely possible. But if you're telling a story, what's the point of telling a story if you do not have an inspirational ending?

The ending must at least be pleasing, and make you feel like the book was leading you there all along. There are of course a number of ways this could happen.

Jon might not end up on the iron throne. But then Dany must in his place. Or Stannis must. Or Aegon must be revealed as of true blood and end up there. Or Jon must end up as lord of Winterfell and marry Sansa because she's hot. And Dany marrys Aegon and Stannis is their hand. Or Jon becomes King in the north and marrys Sansa, and Dany and Aegon rule in the south, but Dany has only one child and it is a girl and she cannot have any more because her womb is focked up too much, so Rickon or Jon and Sansa's son marrys Dany's and Aegon's daughter and unites north and south again. Stannis is still hand. Something like this. It could be any combo, and maybe Dany will die. Maybe Jon will die. Maybe Stannis will die. Maybe Tyrion will consumate his wedding with Sansa and Sansa will be lady of the Rock. You never know. But SOME combo.

Otherwise, the story is pointless in telling. The realm will not have been set to rights. I mean that's what the story is about isn't it? Setting the realm to rights? What is it about, aside character development, if not this?

[Boromir-Bloodstorm]

What if there´s repeling magic on the Fist and that is what drove Ghost away? Ghost might be a Winter creature after all.

That is more probable. Like the magic at Storm's End that made Mel have to birth her horror on the OTHER SIDE of the ward, otherwise the evil could not pass. Same thing with the Wall when Sam takes Bran through - coldhands could not pass because of a MAGIC WARD. Not a ring of skulls. There may be some similar ward on the Fisty place.

[Black Crow]

What do you think is going to happen then?

Look, I know and agree with GRRMs way of making characters more realistic and stories better by having morally ambiguous characters and plot lines. But a story is still a story. A story must have a point, it must tell a tale.

Let's say, Cersei ends up killing every single other high lord in Westeros and marrys Myrcella to Tommen and rules through them and that is the end of the story. In the real world, such a thing is entirely possible. But if you're telling a story, what's the point of telling a story if you do not have an inspirational ending?

The ending must at least be pleasing, and make you feel like the book was leading you there all along. There are of course a number of ways this could happen.

Jon might not end up on the iron throne. But then Dany must in his place. Or Stannis must. Or Aegon must be revealed as of true blood and end up there. Or Jon must end up as lord of Winterfell and marry Sansa because she's hot. And Dany marrys Aegon and Stannis is their hand. Or Jon becomes King in the north and marrys Sansa, and Dany and Aegon rule in the south, but Dany has only one child and it is a girl and she cannot have any more because her womb is focked up too much, so Rickon or Jon and Sansa's son marrys Dany's and Aegon's daughter and unites north and south again. Stannis is still hand. Something like this. It could be any combo, and maybe Dany will die. Maybe Jon will die. Maybe Stannis will die. Maybe Tyrion will consumate his wedding with Sansa and Sansa will be lady of the Rock. You never know. But SOME combo.

Otherwise, the story is pointless in telling. The realm will not have been set to rights. I mean that's what the story is about isn't it? Setting the realm to rights? What is it about, aside character development, if not this?

The realm does indeed need to be put to rights, but the point of the thread is not to play guessing games as to who is going to sit on the iron throne at the end, but to look beyond the Game of Thrones to the Game of Ice and Fire and try to figure out how that is to be resolved and how all the realms of Westeros are to be reconciled and put to rights.

[jon rr stark]

Like if a wolf bred with a dragon?

Would that give us a winged wolf or an ice dragon? Jon Snow or Bran Stark? Which one is which...

wolf and dragon

wouldn't that that give you a wagon

'rollin rollin rawhide...'

[Black Wolf Smith]

What do you think is going to happen then²?

But if you're telling a story, what's the point of telling a story if you do not have an inspirational ending¹?

The ending must at least be pleasing¹, and make you feel like the book was leading you there all along³. There are of course a number of ways this could happen.

1. You do know/understand that GRRM has said many times, the series ending will be bittersweat? and that this story is not black and white/good vs evil. IMO that means it will neither be inspirational nor pleasing(to most readers)

2. Unlike 99% of the threads, we feel the Game of Ice and Fire(aSoIaF) is much more important to the series, then the Game of Thrones. Until GoIaF is finished, it won't matter who's winning the Throne. That is why we are called Heretics!

3. Most readers and most of the characters in the books are worried about the GoT, and IMO are looking the wrong way. Ask yourself this, how many times during your first read thru, did anything go pleasing, inspirational, or even ok happen for the main characters? How many times did you think something good was going to happen, and then everything made a dark turn?

If you want a happy ending, you can go to almost ever other thread to look for it( or read another book). If you want to search the Grey/ the taboo/ the forbidden this is your thread.

[Lummel]

I really think the idea of a ward on the fist doesn't work. Ghost does enter the fist - he's just restless. That points more to him having the sense of, or being impelled towards the cache of dragonglass rather than being repelled from the fist. Nor does Jon remark on Ghost behaving strangely by not entering the fist in the following Jon chapter either.

[Melifeather]

Whoa. I think just being able to watch the past and the present is hugely powerful all by itself. Think of all the lies and secrets being kept and dying off with the characters. Now imagine what you can do with that knowledge (caveat: being able to act on it, or at least communicate that knowledge)

On the 1k posts. I have a little post-envy.

How is Bran supposed to act or communicate? When he tried talking to his father and to Theon, they thought they maybe heard the wind calling their name, but it wasn't clear. I don't think it would be possible to pass along any information in a substantial manner. I think we have yet to read about what Bran will be able to do.

What do you think is going to happen then?

Look, I know and agree with GRRMs way of making characters more realistic and stories better by having morally ambiguous characters and plot lines. But a story is still a story. A story must have a point, it must tell a tale.

Let's say, Cersei ends up killing every single other high lord in Westeros and marrys Myrcella to Tommen and rules through them and that is the end of the story. In the real world, such a thing is entirely possible. But if you're telling a story, what's the point of telling a story if you do not have an inspirational ending?

The ending must at least be pleasing, and make you feel like the book was leading you there all along. There are of course a number of ways this could happen.

Jon might not end up on the iron throne. But then Dany must in his place. Or Stannis must. Or Aegon must be revealed as of true blood and end up there. Or Jon must end up as lord of Winterfell and marry Sansa because she's hot. And Dany marrys Aegon and Stannis is their hand. Or Jon becomes King in the north and marrys Sansa, and Dany and Aegon rule in the south, but Dany has only one child and it is a girl and she cannot have any more because her womb is focked up too much, so Rickon or Jon and Sansa's son marrys Dany's and Aegon's daughter and unites north and south again. Stannis is still hand. Something like this. It could be any combo, and maybe Dany will die. Maybe Jon will die. Maybe Stannis will die. Maybe Tyrion will consumate his wedding with Sansa and Sansa will be lady of the Rock. You never know. But SOME combo.

Otherwise, the story is pointless in telling. The realm will not have been set to rights. I mean that's what the story is about isn't it? Setting the realm to rights? What is it about, aside character development, if not this?

I think the point is, while most of Westeros is fighting over who sits the Iron Throne, the real problem at hand is Winter and an attack by White Walkers and wights. It's kind of like today's world with corporations trying to wrest control of governments away from the people so they can exploit resources for profit, when climate change is a real threat to human survival. Will anyone survive?

If Winter does come to Westeros, who will survive? That is the real story, and the next two book titles hint at where this is all going.

[Black Wolf Smith]

Feather Crystal, I never thought that way(real world) but you have a point. I wish I could "like" it.

ETA: someone posted on H 24, its not locked. Have we really finished 3 thread in 3 weeks?

[Melifeather]

I actually replied to the post on 24 and pasted it over here.

I think GRRM is making a statement about our world using the ASOIAF to do it.

[Fwaatcha]

As far as happy endings go.

Most books(GRRM not being most authors though)start with a prologue that infers as to where the book/books will end.

In AGOT the story starts out north of the Wall with wights killing Crows.The books prologue doesn't start out with stories of knights, kings, and lords.

It is a fair assumption that these books are about the Others/(Whoever) battle to take over the planets and bring the night that never ends.

[Black Crow]

Have we really finished 3 thread in 3 weeks?

Yes.

Why do you think the OPs have been getting a bit samey. I'm trying to find the time to put together a summary of where we're at but the way these threads are moving at the moment it might well end up as the OP for Heresy 29...

[Black Crow]

OK for those coming new to the Heresy threads, we’ll start off with the first of the Heresies; the Wall.

Westerosi legend holds that the Wall was raised up by Bran the Builder (with a little help from the Giants) after the Long Night in order to protect the realm from the return of the Others, but GRRM has himself said that he made that up in order to provide Westeros with a proper mythology: he did mention that he put lots of legends into the books such as Bran the Builder. Bran the builder is supposed to have built the Wall, Winterfel, and Storms End. GRRM mentioned that he has become a legend so that people will look at a structure and say "wow, it must have been built by Bran the Builder" when it actually was not. This is GRRM's attemt on creating a world with myths and legends so if at some point you see, "They say it was built by Bran the Builder or Lann the Clever" realize that its part of the mythos.

So lets look at the Wall a little more closely. It is, according to the books, 700 feet high – but after seeing the 400 foot high quarry face that doubles for it in the TV version GRRM is said to have expressed himself and commented that he made it way too high. Nevertheless, whatever its true height it is a truly massive piece of engineering; like nothing else on Earth says Jon at one point, and the point is that it is too massive for men (with or without Giants) to have built and too large to stand without collapsing under its own weight.

But hey, this is an epic fantasy with magic, and sure enough here’s what Mel has to say about it in ADwD Jon:1 – “Great was the lore that raised it, and great the spells locked beneath its ice. We walk beneath one of the hinges of the world.”

So whose lore, whose spells and why does she describe it as a hinge?

Well lets step back a little. Although there’s a tolerable vagueness about its building there seems to be a general agreement that it wasn’t there during the Long Night, so lets turn to Old Nan:

“In that darkness, the Others came for the first time,” she said as her needles went click click click. “They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding their pale dead horses and leading hosts of the slain. All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and suckling babes found no pity in them. They hunted the maids through frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children.”

Her voice had dropped very low, almost to a whisper, and Bran found himself leaning forward to listen.

“Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken these lands from the children of the forest. Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch. So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds-”

The door opened with a bang…

The interruption means we don’t know what happened next although later Bran remembered how that story ended. “The children will help him,” he blurted, “the children of the forest!”

But how? Giving him a handful of dragonglass or even a magic sword might help him fight off those trailing him, but its not going to win the war or end the Long Night. So what about their magics?

Well magic, according to Mel, built the Wall, but whose?

An important pointed noted by we heretics is that the Wall is built of Ice which seems a curious choice of defence against the Others and the White Cold, but are there clues in the references in Old Nan’s story to the forests, and to the lost cities and kingdoms – and to the Fist of the First Men beyond the Wall?

One of the core heresies therefore is that the Children, the Singers of the Earth, interceded with the Others to create another Pact and that the Wall represents the boundary, the hinge between the realms of Ice and Fire, with the secret tunnel under what’s now the Night Fort being the only communication between.

This has a lot of other implications as well, but as we progress through the heresies, knitting them all together its surprising just how many loose ends can be gathered up...

[brut]

Have we really finished 3 thread in 3 weeks?

Addict Heretics, har!

[Melifeather]

The parts that stood out the most for me were, "They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins" and "They hunted the maids through frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children."

We know fire, and all its forms, such as dragonglass, are effective at killing them. At least we know they dissipate and leave a puddle of melted water.

We know that they only appear at night and avoid daylight. So, can we assume daylight would melt them?

But, why do they hate iron? I don't think stabbing them with iron has proven effective. The only thing we've read about iron is that it keeps the dead from rising.

Then the second part...they hunted the maids...why? A maiden is typically a virgin.

They fed the wights the flesh of babies. Can we assume Craster's sons are being fed to wights?

I guess I've asked more questions than I have answers for!

[Black Crow]

Never fear, the next part of the summary, (one I get a chance to put it together) will discuss the Others and these very questions. All that I will say at this stage is that Old Nan's scary stories are just that...

At an indeterminate point in time, they tooled up during the Long Night, conquering a fair bit of Westeros and killed a lot of people. What we have via Old Nan is a collection of stories by those who got away, embellished and distorted by both time and distance. Just by way of example go look at the stories circulating in King's Landing after Robb Stark defeated and killed Ser Stevron Lannister.

[Black Crow]

Oh, and as for the iron, its a staple of Faerie lore that cold iron blocks their magic.

[Black Wolf Smith]

We do not know anything really about the Others. If you found them asleep, would iron keep them from waking up? Or leave them trapped in whatever the sleep in? Or maybe even forming into humanoid form?

If a maiden is what Craster boys seek, it is for what all males seek females for to mate.

As heretics don't think the Others are evil, eating flesh would not seem like IMO they would do. I wish I knew where someone posted about the fact the only time we have seen the Others attack is when they killed Ser Waymar after he drew his sword.

[Little Wing]

As heretics don't think the Others are evil, eating flesh would not seem like IMO they would do. I wish I knew where someone posted about the fact the only time we have seen the Others attack is when they killed Ser Waymar after he drew his sword.

That would be on a Heresy thread. At least I remember reading it here first and going "hmm..."