Biggest lie and/or dishonorable act by a mostly "good" character?

[Winterfellian]

From a certain PoV, he did exactly this. He had two conflicting vows - one to the king and one to his liege lord. So he chose to stay mostly neutral.

I will agree if the motivating factor would have been an indecision concerning his loyalties (much like the case of Stannis) but this was more about being opportunistic than anything else. He simply wanted to see make sure who was going to be on the winning side before committing himself. Opportunistic, yes. Honorable, no.

[Alester Florent]

Bran should never have warged Hodor. Humans shouldn't warg humans.

If I remember rightly, the very first time that Bran warged Hodor it was to save all their lives (including Hodor's) and I'm prepared to accept that as a legitimate reason for doing so.

But continuing to do so for the sake of convenience was a bit low. I can see how it happens, though. Once that line's been crossed the first time, you think less of crossing it on subsequent occasions.

[ab aeterno]

If I remember rightly, the very first time that Bran warged Hodor it was to save all their lives (including Hodor's) and I'm prepared to accept that as a legitimate reason for doing so.

But continuing to do so for the sake of convenience was a bit low. I can see how it happens, though. Once that line's been crossed the first time, you think less of crossing it on subsequent occasions.

I always think that this is one of the most unfair criticisms leveled against any character on the board. Bran is a little kid, there is nothing to suggest that he actually understands the moral or ethical implications of warging Hodor.

[Winter's Knight]

I always think that this is one of the most unfair criticisms leveled against any character on the board. Bran is a little kid, there is nothing to suggest that he actually understands the moral or ethical implications of warging Hodor.

Bran is very aware that he is hurting Hodor.

The big stableboy no longer fought him as he had the first time, back in the lake tower during the storm. Like a dog who has had all the fight whipped out of him, Hodor would curl up and hide whenever Bran reached out for him. His hiding place was somewhere deep within him, a pit where not even Bran could touch him.

...

Other times, when he was tired of being a wolf, Bran slipped into Hodor’s skin instead. The gentle giant would whimper when he felt him, and thrash his shaggy head from side to side, but not as violently as he had the first time, back at Queenscrown. He knows it’s me, the boy liked to tell himself.

He’s used to me by now. Even so, he never felt comfortable inside Hodor’s skin. The big stableboy never understood what was happening, and Bran could taste the fear at the back of his mouth.

[Summer is Ending]

I always think that this is one of the most unfair criticisms leveled against any character on the board. Bran is a little kid, there is nothing to suggest that he actually understands the moral or ethical implications of warging Hodor.

Like a dog who has had all the fight whipped out of him, Hodor would curl up and hide whenever Bran reached out for him. His hiding place was somewhere deep within him, a pit where not even Bran could touch him. No one wants to hurt you, Hodor, he said silently, to the child-man whose flesh he’d taken. I just want to be strong again for a while. I’ll give it back, the way I always do.

He knows he's hurting him well enough to make excuses for why he beats him down like a dog.

Yeah, what Winter's Knight said.

[ab aeterno]

Bran is very aware that he is hurting Hodor.

I know that, but there is a difference between knowing that it hurts someone and understanding why it is morally and ethically wrong. I'm not sure how many young children would really understand the ethics behind slavery, or even serfdom necessarily.

I also think it's possible that he (unfairly, but also understandably in Westeros,) doesn't understand how much different a "simple" person is from an animal. I don't think that he thinks of Hodor of being quite equal with "normal' people. That's just the impression I got.

[Winter's Knight]

I know that, but there is a difference between knowing that it hurts someone and understanding why it is morally and ethically wrong. I'm not sure how many young children would really understand the ethics behind slavery, or even serfdom necessarily.

I also think it's possible that he (unfairly, but also understandably in Westeros,) doesn't understand how much different a "simple" person is from an animal. I don't think that he thinks of Hodor of being quite equal with "normal' people. That's just the impression I got.

Your last bit is rather disturbing. It's how I've heard people justifying raping the mentally disabled-"It's not like they feel like we do!".

Also, you ever notice how much people point to Joff cutting open a cat at age seven as being a sign that he was evil from birth? It is argued that even a seven year old is capable of realising that he is causing pain-Bran is ten and is consciously deciding to continue warging Hodor despite knowing that he is frightening and hurting the stableboy.

[Summer is Ending]

I know that, but there is a difference between knowing that it hurts someone and understanding why it is morally and ethically wrong. I'm not sure how many young children would really understand the ethics behind slavery, or even serfdom necessarily.

I also think it's possible that he (unfairly, but also understandably in Westeros,) doesn't understand how much different a "simple" person is from an animal. I don't think that he thinks of Hodor of being quite equal with "normal' people. That's just the impression I got.

If Bran understands well enough to feel a need to rationalize to himself why it's ok then he understands well enough to know he should stop. He doesn't want to and the rest is just excuses.

[ab aeterno]

Your last bit is rather disturbing. It's how I've heard people justifying raping the mentally disabled-"It's not like they feel like we do!".

I don't agree with it, obviously, but our understanding of mental illness a relatively new development and is still far short of where it should be as far as tolerance goes. It's new as in within the last century. So in a pseudo-Medieval world with much evidence as to the poor treatment of the mentally disabled it seems a fair question.

Also, you ever notice how much people point to Joff cutting open a cat at age seven as being a sign that he was evil from birth? It is argued that even a seven year old is capable of realising that he is causing pain-Bran is ten and is consciously deciding to continue warging Hodor despite knowing that he is frightening and hurting the stableboy.

That is a good point, though I wonder whether there is a difference between something so obviously physical- cutting the cat open- and something as intangible as warging, much as people often don't realize that they're doing something bad when they make unkind or hurtful comments over the internet that they wouldn't make in real life.

The other difference, imo is that Bran has lost almost everyone he knows, is basically alone in the middle of the North, running for his life, crippled and frightened. Joffrey has none of those mitigating factors.

[ab aeterno]

If Bran understands well enough to feel a need to rationalize to himself why it's ok then he understands well enough to know he should stop. He doesn't want to and the rest is just excuses.

I think you would fail a philosophy class.

[Summer is Ending]

I think you would fail a philosophy class.

Don't care. I have no interest in talking myself into thinking whipping a dog until it's beaten is a good thing.

[ab aeterno]

Don't care. I have no interest in talking myself into thinking whipping a dog until it's beaten is a good thing.

No-one said that it was a good thing, it's more a question of the extent to which something is wrong and the reasons why, and whether a certain individual possesses the knowledge and understanding to know those things.

[House Cearl]

Barristan Selmy not killing Joffrey when he got kicked out of the Kingsguard.

Would have been an awesome way to end his storyline. He's not a KG anymore so that's opportunity plus he's the best of the KG, Jaime wasn't there and he would have been successful doing it before dying.

But he didn't do it and now I think he's a hypocrite >_>

[David Selig]

So he's as honorable as Tywin Lannister. Technically their vow to their king supersedes their vow to their liege lord, so they should have fought for the crown.

Not the same case. Tywin had given only one oath of fealty - to the crown. He had no conflict in this respect.

[ab aeterno]

Not the same case. Tywin had given only one oath of fealty - to the crown. He had no conflict in this respect.

Good point. Tywin has no excuse at all.

[ab aeterno]

To be absolutely clear, I agree that Bran's actions aren't wholly good, but my question is more concerned with culpability in a child. There is a reason we don't hold young children responsible for most crimes..

Bran is, as I said, terrified, running for his life, under attack, having lost his home and just about everyone he knows. He is running away with essentially two children who are smaller than normal people, and Hodor. He is in a situation and has always been raised in a situation where it is okay to kill someone for relatively minor crimes and absolutely justified if you are under threat. In the first case, the only way Bran can protect himself and the others is by warging Hodor to protect them. Otherwise they will probably all be killed.

After he justified it to himself like that, while he understands that it is wrong in terms of hurting Hodor, he doesn't seem to understand why it is wrong beyond the pain it is causing. I'm also not sure whether a child would understand entirely the difference between why it was justified at the moment he first did it, but not afterwards.

So while I would potentially criticize Bran for knowingly causing pain to Hodor when it wasn't absolutely necessary I wouldn't say that you can blame Bran in terms of it being wrong to warg humans, because he wouldn't understand why.

[Summer is Ending]

He also continues to do it even in a stable situation and as he puts himself, because he gets tired of warging Summer. He's at the point where he does it because he's bored.

He doesn't have to understand the full implications. He understands it well enough to compare it to whipping a dog yet continues to do it because he likes to be big and strong. Unless you think Ned raised his children to think it's all right to whip a dog if it makes you feel big then he understands well enough to know he should stop.

If there was a literal scene of Bran beating a dog just because he was bored and wanted to people would react far differently.

[The Red Star]

I dont think Robb Marrying Jeyne makes his dishonourable act honourable, the good act dosent wash out the bad

[ab aeterno]

He also continues to do it even in a stable situation and as he puts himself, because he gets tired of warging Summer. He's at the point where he does it because he's bored.

He doesn't have to understand the full implications. He understands it well enough to compare it to whipping a dog yet continues to do it because he likes to be big and strong. Unless you think Ned raised his children to think it's all right to whip a dog if it makes you feel big then he understands well enough to know he should stop.

If there was a literal scene of Bran beating a dog just because he was bored and wanted to people would react far differently.

As I said, my qualm is with people who think that Bran should know that it is wrong to warg humans. He is wrong because he doesn't seem to mind causing Hodor pain, though it ought to be noted that that is how they trained dogs, they didn't do it just to cause the dogs pain.

[Kolantero]

DID HOUSE FREY NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO JUSTICE?

Nope.