Why is Jon Snow not as grey or nuanced as all the other characters?

[total1402]

Even among the Starks I'd say hes pretty much got nothing really against him. Bran is misusing his powers. Arya is straying into being psychopathic. Sansa had the whole nievity thing. Whilst when you start looking at the likes of Stannis and Dany the gulf becomes incredibly extreme. To me, he seemed like the typical male protagonist, with virtually no character defects, who essentially solves every problem he is in or overcomes them. He was (apparently) meant to slightly arrogant and entitled for his first chapter but rapidly earns the respect of his peers anyway; even getting Sam forgiven. He gets caputred by wildlings, but, this only gives him the means to defeat them and there was never any question of him betraying the watch. All very by the numbers. He then leads a masterful defence of the watch prooving that hes clever, a great personal fighter and a military leader. Then he shows himself to be humble by refusing Stannis offer of a pardon and Winterfell. Later he advises Stannis on military matters and does an incredible job of running the wall; getting the wildlings to fight for him including giants. He clearly shows himself to be a natural administrator and astute leader.His only failure is that he doesn't have his wolf with him and is murdered by a handful of disgruntled men. However, we all know he isn't dead and will return right as rain next book.

IMO he is the closest the series gets to a Mary Sue character and I fail to see the nuance or greyness in this character at all. Essentially we have it repeatedly hammered into us that this man would make a great King but has the issues of illegitimacy. Being many times better than all the other claiments out there in terms of character and ability. He is the handsome, well intentioned nice guy with all these great abilities who solves every problem he faces. He has the looks n sword skills of Jamie, the inspiration of Dany, the military skills of Stannis and the craftiness of Tyrion; all wrapped up in that Ned Starky goodness. I don't really see the flipside to this character. Being boring is hardly a deficiency when you have all that and are on a level with Mance Raider in the wildlings eyes.

I mean I have to go out of my way to defend Daenerys; I'll admit that right now. Whilst Stannis is just liked because "hes such a lad" and yet its easy to rip into him. But, Jon Snow, I just can't do that. He is presented in a very unambiguously good manner and I actually can't knock him in a comparison with Daenerys. The text explicitly does not give me the leeway to do that. In character and in ability its pretty straightforward which is better in virtually every regard. He is boring. But I'd say thats more a difference in form regarding his charisma. Hes more the quiet person who inspires respect and confidence in others with actions n ability. Dany does so with her voice and raw charisma. The closest analogy I can make would be the Wars of light and Shadow book series with Lysaer and Arithons leadership. But I'd say the end result is the same anyway and once to add all of Jon Snows other traits he still comes out on top.

[Winterfellian]

Yeah, Jon definitely is 100% perfect and overcomes every problem he's ever faced. He's so perfect he's laying face down on the snow with at least 3-4 stabs to his back. Those who stabbed him must have been jealous of his perfection,.

I wish I had such an easy perfect life as Jon Snow!

[Harald Hard-Ruler]

It's kind of funny though, even though we see things through Jon's eyes and see what a great guy he is, from the perspective of someone in the world of ASOIAF who didn't know Jon personally he could conceivably come off as one of the bad guys. Let's look at him and what he's done objectively (as objectively as possible with someone with a Westerosi bias against bastards and wildlings lol)

A man who kills his fellow Night's Watch brother with the help of his dire wolf familiar and goes over to the Wildling side. Then backstabs the Wildlings and tries to turncloak again and go back to the NW. Then plots with his lackey in order to make himself Lord Commander. Uses his position as LC to eliminate his political opponents among the NW on trumped up charges. Allies himself with an enemy of the Crown who had earlier given him promises of land and titles. Jon comes off as an overambitious, opportunistic bastard born of a traitor.

[total1402]

Yeah, Jon definitely is 100% perfect and overcomes every problem he's ever faced. He's so perfect he's laying face down on the snow with at least 3-4 stabs to his back. Those who stabbed him must have been jealous of his perfection

Jon isn't dead. Nobody believed he was dead at the time and everyone knows hes coming back.

Not wearing a coat of mail and not having your direwolf with you to kill the assasians and survive the assault isn't indicitive of a character flaw or defect or even a bad set of decisions. He had the wildlings in his pocket. More men to man the wall with giants to aid them; less corpses for the wights. All gain, no loss. A few men kill him. IMO this is just to forward his plot as being AA reborn.

So, you can't list any character defects then I take it?

[houseHB]

Wait until he becomes the new Nights King

[total1402]

Wait until he becomes the new Nights King

At the very worst I could see him becoming like Coldhands. However, this won't happen because he still needs to become King and screw Dany; given the House of the Undying prophecy. So he can't beocme undead or side with the Others hes been fighting for five books.

I mean Martin slams virtually every archtype in fantasy from amazonian warriors to child assasians to King Arthur and all the rest. Jon Snow is just not subverted to anywhere near the same degree; he is the stereotypical male fantasy protagonist. Who then goes on to do amazing things. Even his alleged slip-ups aren't really massive or his fault and have always served to advance his plot.

[straits]

At the very worst I could see him becoming like Coldhands. However, this won't happen because he still needs to become King and screw Dany; given the House of the Undying prophecy. So he can't beocme undead or side with the Others hes been fighting for five books.

I mean Martin slams virtually every archtype in fantasy from amazonian warriors to child assasians to King Arthur and all the rest. Jon Snow is just not subverted to anywhere near the same degree; he is the stereotypical male fantasy protagonist. Who then goes on to do amazing things. Even his alleged slip-ups aren't really massive or his fault and have always served to advance his plot.

We are arguing his greyness. All human beings in the real world are grey, no? Are we all subversions of certain stereotypes? No.

Jon is naive. He is nothing over a good swordsman. Becoming LC is not really amazing; what Sam Tarly did to make Jon become LC is amazing. On top of that, Mormont tried grooming him for the role. What Jon does have going for him is the fact that he is aware of the real threat to the kingdom, and that he is doing the best he can, given his resources and opinions (he failed to utilize Mel and got stabbed for it).

The only reason he did not abandon the Night Watch from the start is because his friends physically stopped him. He started out as a self-centered character.

He advanced his own plot? No. his 'death' advanced it. He essentially formed a resistance against Others which was doomed to fail because GRRM wants them to breach the Wall. Your pointing out that nothing is really his fault just means you're his fan. That's okay.

I need that list of amazing things he did, though.

[straits]

So, you can't list any character defects then I take it?

These can't be listed because he did not really do much, nor should he have been expected to. The idea that a character needs a flaw which causes him to slaughter cities or doom a House to be grey, nuanced or realistic is silly.

[LordBloodraven]

He left Ygritte

[total1402]

We are arguing his greyness. All human beings in the real world are grey, no? Are we all subversions of certain stereotypes? No.

Jon is naive. He is nothing over a good swordsman. Becoming LC is not really amazing; what Sam Tarly did to make Jon become LC is amazing. On top of that, Mormont tried grooming him for the role. What Jon does have going for him is the fact that he is aware of the real threat to the kingdom, and that he is doing the best he can, given his resources and opinions (he failed to utilize Mel and got stabbed for it).

The only reason he did not abandon the Night Watch from the start is because his friends physically stopped him. He started out as a self-centered character.

He advanced his own plot? No. his 'death' advanced it. He essentially formed a resistance against Others which was doomed to fail because GRRM wants them to breach the Wall. Your pointing out that nothing is really his fault just means you're his fan. That's okay.

I need that list of amazing things he did, though.

I'am definetly not that boring emos fan.

But the list of amazing things he did

-Impresses the wildlings enough that they pretty much make him their King and he wins over a hostile culture to help defend the wall. He single handedly gets over centuries of prejudice based on his own experiences and through force of will. He would have done this had he worn a suit of mail.

-The man basiclly plans Stannis campaign in the North. Laying out how he will win the North by getting the clans and fighting the Ironborn; before going to Winterfell. This essentially implies that he is a better leader than Stannis. Ours is the Fury Stannis here. Not Tarly or Mormont. Stannis. That says a lot.

-He throws back the wildling army with a few dozen men and women, including tavern wenchs the worst soldiers the watch has. Yet he repeatedly hurls back a hoard 50,000 strong and which has giants. Which is after he fought a big rearguard action to stop the wildlings taking them from behind.

-Whilst in ADWD we see Dany making a mess in Mereen and struggling to rule; Jon is Dovahkiin as Lord Commander. He gets them money n supplies, he gets them soldiers, he gets the Karstarks and thwarts their plot. This is very reminiscent of Tyrion preparing Kings Landing and the implication is that had he not died he would have put up a serious obstacle for the Others.

Theres probably more. But the text is very clear. His death was incidental and contrived. Its not really something to hold against his ridiculous number of achievements prior to that.

Its debatable whether going to help your family can truly be considered self-centered and is so sympatheticlly treated that it almost doesn't matter. I mean even Stannis knows that he has to make himself King or lord of something in order to fight the Others. Maybe Jon could have alerted Rob to the threat. Compared to other flaws which the likes of Stannis or Dany have its really not a good comparison.

[Luftballoons]

I feel that his naivete in the first few books was a pronounced character flaw (though I love me some Jon Snow). He also seems to be the most like his "father" Ned (I agree R&L=J) whose ultimate downfall was his ineptitude at playing the Game of Thrones and his reliance on his honor to see him through. Unlike Ned, though, Jon seems to be learning and if/when he survives his Caesar-ing, will rise as a much stronger man and, I think, become a real Player.

[Winterfellian]

He was (apparently) meant to slightly arrogant and entitled for his first chapter but rapidly earns the respect of his peers anyway; even getting Sam forgiven

How did he "rapidly earn" their respect? To start, the key word here is earn. His peers respect wasn't given, Jon earned it and it wasn't by continue being as self entitled as when he arrived at the wall. Jon learned from his mistakes when Donal Noyle call him off, directly apologize to Grenn for having hurted him and offered to help him and the other guys with training. Also, is not like this actions earned him universal love and respect.

He gets caputred by wildlings, but, this only gives him the means to defeat them and there was never any question of him betraying the watch. All very by the numbers. He then leads a masterful defence of the watch prooving that hes clever, a great personal fighter and a military leader.

First, Jon didn't defeat the wildings. He postponed their advancement as much as possible, but the wildings had the numbers to storm the wall and probably would have had it not been for Stannis's arrival.

Do you mean that when they throw Jon in an ice cell and attempted to hang him it wasn't because his loyalty to the NW was being questioned? We must have read different books if this is the case. Even in ADWD there are factions that questioned his time with the wildings. Some believe Jon's vbersion of the events, others didn't.

Jon was castle trained so is logic that his skills in combat and leading are better than those of the drag recruits left at the wall during the attack. He certainly has natural abilities, but his time in WF and under service of men such as the Old Bear and the Half Hand helped him a lot too. I don't understand how does the battle at the wall prove him to be an exceptional fighter in your eyes given that they fought mostly with arrows and not hand to hand combat.

Then he shows himself to be humble by refusing Stannis offer of a pardon and Winterfell. Later he advises Stannis on military matters and does an incredible job of running the wall; getting the wildlings to fight for him including giants. He clearly shows himself to be a natural administrator and astute leader.His only failure is that he doesn't have his wolf with him and is murdered by a handful of disgruntled men. However, we all know he isn't dead and will return right as rain next book.

It wasn't about being humble. A humble cliched guy would have say no inmediately after hearing the proposal. But we know Jon definitely considered accepting the offer and that he really wanted to accept Winterfell. In the end he didn't because of a combination of many things: he realized that Winterfell wasn't Stannis to give, that he would have to forsaken his vows for real and thus dishonor himself and that Mel and Stannis would have destroyed the Godswood. It was not out of false humillity or humbleness.

If you really think that Jon's only mistake was that he didn't have Ghost with him, I suggest you take a look at the Learning to Lead threads.

However, this won't happen because he still needs to become King and screw Dany

So this is where all the Jon Vitrol is coming from! Good to know, I had my suspicions, but is good to confirm them.

[Makes No Sansa]

Jon is the hero, I guess that pretty much explains it all. Why in hell would he be the only major character in the Wall, the place where the biggest battle is supposed to be fought?

[Quentyn Baratheon]

He left Ygritte

And that is supposed to be bad?

[LordBloodraven]

My question is why do you ask the readers, "why is Jon Snow not as grey or nuanced as all the other characters"? I don't think that you expect an answer from us, more like a discussion on how Gary Sueish Jon Snow is.

[Jon AS]

Jon is very much like Ned, but with some unique baggage (namely some serious issues about his status as a bastard). When we meet him in A Game of Thrones, he is naive and arrogant. He grows out of that for the most part, but he still has some serious anger issues as late as the end of A Storm of Swords.

Once he becomes Lord Commander, he develops the fatal tendency of not trying to win his subordinates over to his plans, he just expects them to obey and isolates himself from the rest of the Watch, which by the end of A Dance with Dragons leads to a serious case of knife-in-belly.

He can't be a "Mary Sue" (if ever there was an overused term in discussion of fiction on the internet, surely this must be it) because he does not fulfill the important criterium of being beloved by everyone. He has quite a few people under his command who plain don't like him, and others who are at least willing to try to murder him.

-Impresses the wildlings enough that they pretty much make him their King and he wins over a hostile culture to help defend the wall. He single handedly gets over centuries of prejudice based on his own experiences and through force of will. He would have done this had he worn a suit of mail.

These are unique circumstances. The Wildlings know that they can either cooperate or die. It's hardly the most amazing achievement.

-The man basiclly plans Stannis campaign in the North. Laying out how he will win the North by getting the clans and fighting the Ironborn; before going to Winterfell. This essentially implies that he is a better leader than Stannis. Ours is the Fury Stannis here. Not Tarly or Mormont. Stannis. That says a lot.

The guy who grew up in the North and was raised by the Lord of Winterfell knows more about how to deal with the Northmen than the guy who's never set foot north of the Neck before the events of A Storm of Swords? Now there's a shock.

-He throws back the wildling army with a few dozen men and women, including tavern wenchs the worst soldiers the watch has. Yet he repeatedly hurls back a hoard 50,000 strong and which has giants. Which is after he fought a big rearguard action to stop the wildlings taking them from behind.

He manages to hold them off, thanks to a magical 700 foot high wall of ice. And a few more days of fighting and Castle Black would have fallen anyway. It's Stannis' intervention that defeats the Wildlings.

Theres probably more. But the text is very clear. His death was incidental and contrived. Its not really something to hold against his ridiculous number of achievements prior to that.

His death is extremely important to his story: it arises directly from his failures as a leader (namely convincing a significant part of the Nights Watch that he is doing a good job as Lord Commander).

[straits]

I'am definetly not that boring emos fan.

There you go, a flaw. But I think I can see which direction you're going in given this stance.

I'am definetly not that boring emos fan.

But the list of amazing things he did

-Impresses the wildlings enough that they pretty much make him their King and he wins over a hostile culture to help defend the wall. He single handedly gets over centuries of prejudice based on his own experiences and through force of will. He would have done this had he worn a suit of mail.

Or maybe they saw opportunity in his offers, him being the first LC to negotiate face to face. He didn't impress them, they happened to need certain things like right of passage, which he was able to offer. It was practically a trade. And wildlings are not mindless, nor are they rabid. With the Others on your trail, you don't really need to be 'impressed' by anyone to accept going through the gate. I do not understand how you can see this as a feat of Jon's charisma.

-The man basiclly plans Stannis campaign in the North. Laying out how he will win the North by getting the clans and fighting the Ironborn; before going to Winterfell. This essentially implies that he is a better leader than Stannis. Ours is the Fury Stannis here. Not Tarly or Mormont. Stannis. That says a lot.

He doesn't basically do that. He tells Stannis all that he knows. Stannis does not know very much about the North anyways. It was Stannis who won over the clans, not Jon. And this does not imply that he is a better leader than Stannis. If you want something to support that point you could have talked about his leading of the defense of the Wall. And even then he led a handful.

-He throws back the wildling army with a few dozen men and women, including tavern wenchs the worst soldiers the watch has. Yet he repeatedly hurls back a hoard 50,000 strong and which has giants. Which is after he fought a big rearguard action to stop the wildlings taking them from behind.

He would have been fucked if Noye wasn't there. Plain and simple.

-Whilst in ADWD we see Dany making a mess in Mereen and struggling to rule; Jon is Dovahkiin as Lord Commander. He gets them money n supplies, he gets them soldiers, he gets the Karstarks and thwarts their plot. This is very reminiscent of Tyrion preparing Kings Landing and the implication is that had he not died he would have put up a serious obstacle for the Others.

Dany has a much harder task ahead of her. She's governing a populace. Jon is governing a military organisation who is by law under him. The people Dany needs to rule are not obliged to obey.

And he died. He had to, in order for the Others to get a shot at breaching the Wall fast, and for GRRM to get a shot at finishing his book.

You do not like Jon because he has good intentions, really. And your defense is that 'had he not died, he would have achieved ______'. But he messed up, and he died.

[danm_999]

If you think Jon Snow is a Mary Sue, it demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of the term.

[LordBloodraven]

And that is supposed to be bad?

It's a hard choice that can be interpreted both ways: going for duty or being a coward

[total1402]

How did he "rapidly earn" their respect? To start, the key word here is earn. His peers respect wasn't given, Jon earned it and it wasn't by continue being as self entitled as when he arrived at the wall. Jon learned from his mistakes when Donal Noyle call him off, directly apologize to Grenn for having hurted him and offered to help him and the other guys with training. Also, is not like this actions earned him universal love and respect.

First, Jon didn't defeat the wildings. He postponed their advancement as much as possible, but the wildings had the numbers to storm the wall and probably would have had it not been for Stannis's arrival.

Do you mean that when they throw Jon in an ice cell and attempted to hang him it wasn't because his loyalty to the NW was being questioned? We must have read different books if this is the case. Even in ADWD there are factions that questioned his time with the wildings. Some believe Jon's vbersion of the events, others didn't.

Jon was castle trained so is logic that his skills in combat and leading are better than those of the drag recruits left at the wall during the attack. He certainly has natural abilities, but his time in WF and under service of men such as the Old Bear and the Half Hand helped him a lot too. I don't understand how does the battle at the wall prove him to be an exceptional fighter in your eyes given that they fought mostly with arrows and not hand to hand combat.

It wasn't about being humble. A humble cliched guy would have say no inmediately after hearing the proposal. But we know Jon definitely considered accepting the offer and that he really wanted to accept Winterfell. In the end he didn't because of a combination of many things: he realized that Winterfell wasn't Stannis to give, that he would have to forsaken his vows for real and thus dishonor himself and that Mel and Stannis would have destroyed the Godswood. It was not out of false humillity or humbleness.

If you really think that Jon's only mistake was that he didn't have Ghost with him, I suggest you take a look at the Learning to Lead threads.

So this is where all the Jon Vitrol is coming from! Good to know, I had my suspicions, but is good to confirm them.

I hardly think you criticise a character by pointing out all his positive points and successes. But yes, I started reading the series because of Dany; I would be irritated if her only point was to be Arwen to his Aragon. Especially when I find him so boring and made the cardinal sin of reminding me of Arithon from Light n Shadow.

He considers and refuses. He still fulfils the cliche, its just that he appraises the issue and thinks it over. The end result is the same and shows him unlike most other characters in the series who would have taken that offer in a heartbeat; ie Tyrion.

We barely even get to know who those trainees are before he gets their respect. In the TV show this is even more rushed and by the numbers. Also, thats exactly the point, he overcomes a character defect in a few chapters. Thats very rare and there are plenty of characters who haven't overcame their issues. Just look at Sansa and how long she went through the same issue of nievity.

He still held off a massive army with a few hundred untrained men n conscripts and defeated their flank attack.

The people who caged him were dicks and prejudiced. Plus, you know hes meant for greater things than freezing to death or having Mance lop his head off. Never mind that Davos POV basicly confirmed lil Stannis was on his way. But thats besides the point. Other characters mistreat him for the wrong reasons; thats no slight agaisnt him.