Why is Jon Snow not as grey or nuanced as all the other characters?

[total1402]

Treated like a bastard, which means he's treated as untrustworthy, sullen, degenerate, etc.

Screaming at Maester Aemon that he doesn't understand what he's going through (vis a vis Ned being executed) in AGoT, or attacking Allister Throne when Throne clearly baited him are examples of Jon's anger that are not badass. They're clear examples of when he's wrong and flawed.

He flips out pretty quickly when he's not assigned to the Rangers, and starts shitting on the Stewards and what they do as beneath him. Likewise, he views his fellow recruits as little better than scum initially. Jon has a strong tendency to arrogance in him.

It gets him stabbed at the end of ADWD, and even when he's elected Lord Commander, Pyp and Grenn are making japes about how snooty he's become. It ain't a quirk.

It's not a badass trait, because it causes him to make decisions that are clearly wrong and bad, like attempting to desert to join Robb.

Having a burnt hand is not becoming. Mary Sue characters are supposed to be immaculate physically, and Jon is all sorts of banged up. On top of that, he's apparently not that attractive to begin with, which also precludes him being a Mary Sue character.

Mary Sue characters are not treated as pariahs.

Maybe do a re-read to the extent you know about the big plot points in Jon's arc before you're creating character analysis topics?

Yeah it was pretty quirky when he was having fever dreams from the arrow sticking out of his leg, or when he was weeping over Ygritte's corpse. That gosh darn Jon Snow always wins, huh?

Hes only a teenage boy My own brother acts that way all the time. But yes, screaming at Aemon is pretty dam bad. But I don't think its gotton him in the deep end that much. Plus, as the reader we see his better side and know he has reasons to be all emoish.

Dany is physically beautiful but one continent thinks she is a monster who bathes in the blood of children to stay young and another continent thinks shes insane like her father. Neither of these things are true. Just because people treat Jon and Dany as pariahs doesn't mean they are right. Plus, their appearence has little to do with such judgements. If anything Dany being oh so sexy is used agaisnt her by the Yunkish and others who don't see her as a ruler.

Yes, he saved the wall and has guarded the realms of men. Holding it until Stannis could arrive. Thats what he wanted, thats what he got. Then he showed masterful leadership on the wall as LC. Yes, he doesn't have that trick Dany does where she can make people insanely loyal to her. But, substance matters more and it doesn't alter the fact that on the whole his tenure was an amazing success. Unlike Dany who tries to appease the Mereenese nobles and they may even have still tried to kill her; without solving any issues and ruining a chance to ally with the Dornish. I still think we're meant to consider Jons abrasive but succesful endeavors better than Danys concilatory but disastrous endeavours.

[Real Heir of Bear Island]

• Bastard
  
• Quick to anger
  
• Arrogant
  
• Distant, even with friends
  
• Impulsive
  
• Stubborn
  
• Physically deformed (burnt hand, scarred face).
  
• Suspected traitor and warg
  

• Failed to escape Castle Black to join Robb in his war.
  
• Failed ranging with Quorin Halfhand, who he was forced to kill.
  
• Failed to follow direct order from Halfhand, and kill Ygritte.
  
• Failed to lie convincingly to Mance, to the extent he was forced to break his vows with Ygritte to maintain cover.
  
• Failed to convince the Magnar he was loyal to the Wildlings, so he had to flee. Failed to flee without being shot with an arrow.
  
• Failed to convince Bowen Marsh to support him when elected Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, which resulted in his brutal assassination.
  
• Failed to make the right decision regarding Hardholme, which seems to be a fucking disaster.
  

The operative phrase.

Agreed.

This is most of it. I love Jon, and I get what the OP meant in that he is not gray. He is a "good guy" 100%. His motives are just but he is by no means flawless or perfect. He broke vows, lied to his friends (Sam about the baby for one) and stepped on toes to accomplish what he thought was the right thing.

[SeanF]

Oh he is definitely flawed. Maybe a lot less flawed than other characters, kind of like Ned. If you re-read his chapters and pay attention to all his internal struggles you can tell he isn't all goody-goody. He was very unlikable when he first arrived at the wall, and that was because of his own behavior. Look at how he interacts with Benjen in AGOT, and even imagines his uncle dead in his fury. And then he tried deserting the NW too and would have if it wasn't for his friends. Perhaps all this is fixed by the end of AGOT but there are even more flaws later.

He fails miserably as LC at the end of the day. He is hated and unable to inspire loyalty among a good portion of the NW. And he's unable to see that coming. Let's look at the reasons why people in the NW hate him. They think him a turncloak, they believe he's not remaining neutral enough with the issues of the realm (Stannis, Ramsey). He's not exactly 100% innocent of all those accusations.

He fails to persuade a large minority of the Night's Watch that his decisions as LC are the right ones.

But, in point of fact, almost all his decisions are the right ones. So, I wouldn't call him a failure as LC.

[The She Wolf]

He fails to persuade a large minority of the Night's Watch that his decisions as LC are the right ones.

But, in point of fact, almost all his decisions are the right ones. So, I wouldn't call him a failure as LC.

Of course he succeeded in many ways, but with his supposed assassination the NW is basically doomed against the Others which is his failure. Similar to how Ned's actions leading to Robert's and his own deaths ultimately result in conflict and war for the Realm. Or even how Rhaegar's actions (for whatever reason) ultimately led to Robert's rebellion. These might be likable characters but they end up stirring a lot of trouble.

[kkae]

I don't think Jon Snow is ever described as handsome.

[sarah.jenice]

I feel that his naivete in the first few books was a pronounced character flaw (though I love me some Jon Snow). He also seems to be the most like his "father" Ned (I agree R&L=J) whose ultimate downfall was his ineptitude at playing the Game of Thrones and his reliance on his honor to see him through. Unlike Ned, though, Jon seems to be learning and if/when he survives his Caesar-ing, will rise as a much stronger man and, I think, become a real Player.

:agree:

Jon never saw his death coming, and while he did do a lot of great stuff as Lord Commander, he wasn't perfect. He sent all of his friends away and was very rigid when it came to listening to his advisers. I know Jon was right about most of it, but I agreed that the trip to Hardhome was a suicide mission and only will serve to create more wights. I hated that he wouldn't listen to reason on that.

I think it is too early to judge Jon like you are judging the rest of the Starks/characters. Jon hasn't been homeless/lost and struggling to survive like Bran and Arya and even Sansa, who have had to go "darker" roads to live in the face of grave danger. Or been fighting a war like Robb, Dany and Stannis. Who knows what choices Jon will make once he is actually fighting the Others or leads his Wildling army to Winterfell. He might have sex with Mel and make that super shadow baby she thinks she can make at the Wall to take out the Great Other. He might flay all of the Bolton forces. We don't know where his character will go yet.

I just think comparing running the Night's Watch to ruling Meereen and the other characters plights are pretty unfair comparisons.

[SeanF]

I think it is too early to judge Jon like you are judging the rest of the Starks/characters. Jon hasn't been homeless/lost and struggling to survive like Bran and Arya and even Sansa, who have had to go "darker" roads to live in the face of grave danger. Or been fighting a war like Robb, Dany and Stannis. Who knows what choices Jon will make once he is actually fighting the Others or leads his Wildling army to Winterfell. He might have sex with Mel and make that super shadow baby she thinks she can make at the Wall to take out the Great Other. He might flay all of the Bolton forces. We don't know where his character will go yet.

My guess is that Melisandre will play a major part in Jon's recovery, and that they will become lovers in TWOW.

[total1402]

I think it is too early to judge Jon like you are judging the rest of the Starks/characters. Jon hasn't been homeless/lost and struggling to survive like Bran and Arya and even Sansa, who have had to go "darker" roads to live in the face of grave danger. Or been fighting a war like Robb, Dany and Stannis. Who knows what choices Jon will make once he is actually fighting the Others or leads his Wildling army to Winterfell. He might have sex with Mel and make that super shadow baby she thinks she can make at the Wall to take out the Great Other. He might flay all of the Bolton forces. We don't know where his character will go yet.

I just think comparing running the Night's Watch to ruling Meereen and the other characters plights are pretty unfair comparisons.

2/3 into the series seems a bit much before you start unveiling big character changes. Although I agree with you that Jon has had an isolated, almsot world denying situation and a far simpler moral dilema. Be executed for desertion to help family or save the realm. Not as harsh or bleak a decision as other characters like Theon or Jamie.

No I think we see two dragons trying to rule and using different strategies. Dany tries to be concilatory. Jon is abrasive. Both end the same, but Jon still achieved far more before he was killed. Dany may have inadvertantly preserved her army intact before Vic arrives and she masters Drogon; but thats just coincidental. She would have been destroyed without those interventions.

[Melonica Stormborn]

My guess is that Melisandre will play a major part in Jon's recovery, and that they will become lovers in TWOW.

Please. No.

[SeanF]

Please. No.

Jon deserves a break, after the events of ADWD.

[total1402]

My guess is that Melisandre will play a major part in Jon's recovery, and that they will become lovers in TWOW.

Jon seems to have a thing for redheads I suppose....

[Dimadick]

To me, he seemed like the typical male protagonist, with virtually no character defects, who essentially solves every problem he is in or overcomes them.

Has he? I have a rather different view of his character arc in "Dance". He alienates himself from his natural allies within the Night's Watch. He fails to listen to good advise from characters like Bowen Marsh and Melisandre. He pretty much mocks the Queen's Men and distances himself from the Baratheon court. He faces a significant supply problem by adding even more people to the population needing the supplies. Hoping that the situation will somehow resolve itself. He orchestrates a doomed expedition to Hardhome and gets every man aboard killed. (I agree with Melisandre that they won't be coming back). He plans to lead a second ill-planned expedition, when even Patchface sees it as a fool's errand.

He fails to explain his perspective to anyone. His seemingly erratic behavior making him a prime target for assassination. I viewed his decision making process as a train-wreck and was actually relieved to see him get what he so richly deserved: a dagger to the throat.

Then he shows himself to be humble by refusing Stannis offer of a pardon and Winterfell.

But did he refuse? He was about to accept when the other members of the Watch chose to elect him. Only then did he commit himself to the Watch.

Later he advises Stannis on military matters

Military matters and political-diplomatic matters of the North. Which he knows because it is his native region, and because he is a Stark in everything but name. Stannis is the outsider here, a man who spend most of his life in the Stormlands and Crownlands. He knows very little of the North and tries to make sense of the limited info he gets.

and does an incredible job of running the wall; getting the wildlings to fight for him including giants.

An incredible job at sowing dissent in the ranks I would say. And only some wildlings volunteer to defend the Wall.

He clearly shows himself to be a natural administrator and astute leader.

He fails to coherently address supply problems. He shuts out Bowen Marsh, the guy saddled with facing said problems, out of discussions that might provide temporary solutions. (Loan from the Band of Braavos, importation of food from Essos, etc). He refuses to listen to feedback from his subordinates and has no idea how frustrated they are with his leadership. My, what an astute leader.

His only failure is that he doesn't have his wolf with him

As Melisandre keeps advising him. Again he ignores good advise and goes with his own impulses.

IMO he is the closest the series gets to a Mary Sue character

This is a rather overused term. I frequently come across people throwing it as an accusation on any character who differs from the norm. Or at least what they consider the norm. But does Snow actually fill the criteria prescribed by the people who coined the term back in 1976?

"Mary Sue stories—the adventures of the youngest and smartest ever person to graduate from the academy and ever get a commission at such a tender age."

Is he really that young or that smart? Samwell Tarly consistently proves smarter, more astute, and at times braver than Jon.

"Usually characterized by unprecedented skill in everything from art to zoology, including karate and arm-wrestling."

Jon is a pretty good swordsman.... and that is about it when it comes to his skills.

"This character can also be found burrowing her way into the good graces/heart/mind of one of the Big Three [Kirk, Spock, and McCoy], if not all three at once."

Has Jon actually found a place in the hearts and minds of major characters from the world of Ice and Fire? Perhaps. For a second-string POV character, he seems to find his way in the thoughts of major characters: Catelyn Tully, Arya Stark, Tyrion Lannister, Samwell Tarly, and Melisandre. Stannis Baratheon seems relatively fond of him and Theon Greyjoy is certain that Jon would kill him in a heartbeat.

But he is far from the centre of everyone's attentions and not exactly in everyone's good graces.

"She saves the day by her wit and ability, and, if we are lucky, has the good grace to die at the end, being grieved by the entire ship."

Well, Jon Snow can't save the day. Because solving the problems at hand are far beyond his wit and ability. Hopefully he dies before the end. And I can't really see that many people grieving over his demise.

He is not Daenerys Targaryen , representing a dream of freedom spread throughout the Slaver's Bay and beyond. He is not Robb Stark, embodying the dreams of the North and the Riverlands for political independence. He is not Balon Greyjoy, the hero in a nationalistic saga of the Iron Islands. He is not Stannis Baratheon, the savior-figure of a new religious movement.

I can see people lamenting these leaders a century following their demise. Who will remember Snow?

Essentially we have it repeatedly hammered into us that this man would make a great King but has the issues of illegitimacy. Being many times better than all the other claiments out there in terms of character and ability.

He can't handle leading a few hundreds soldiers. So give him a throne and make him responsible for millions of lives. Sorry, I can't follow your logic here.

He is the handsome, well intentioned nice guy

Who bullies young mothers and steals babies. Who sends subordinates to their doom. He is well-intentioned. But he is leading the Night's Watch towards the road to hell.

He has the looks n sword skills of Jamie, the inspiration of Dany, the military skills of Stannis and the craftiness of Tyrion; all wrapped up in that Ned Starky goodness.

Aren't you overestimating him? He has sword skills, but we haven't really seen him facing particularly skilled opponents. Except Mance Rayder who outclasses him. He is attractive enough to get some women. But we don't see his looks receive legendary status like that of Jaime. Daenerys provides inspiration for thousands of people. Jon fails to motivate most of his subordinates. Stannis has some epic victories behind him, Jon doesn't. He doesn't really have the intellect of Tyrion and we rarely see him outwit people. Unless you count the likes of Janos Slynt. And while he has a honor code, do we really see people swearing that this guy is honorable? We have people defending the honor of Eddard, from Jaime Lannister to Barristan Selmy. Not so much when it comes to Jon.

I don't really see the flipside to this character. Being boring is hardly a deficiency

That he is so boring is a terminal flaw in my eyes. Then again i didn't like Eddard much either.

I mean I have to go out of my way to defend Daenerys; I'll admit that right now.

Because Daenerys is a more interesting, more flawed character with a far more complex path. We have followed her in an epic voyage across a continent and seen constant changes in her perspective and though processes. Jon is almost stationary by comparison. Always stuck on the extreme north of his continent, with few changes in environment.

[total1402]

I don't think Jon Snow is ever described as handsome.

Hes an athletic young male adult with raven black hair. Even if he isn't exactly a pretty faced boy (don't the wildlings talk about him like that or am I imagining things?). A bit of ruggedness is always okay with blokes. Now that Ygrittes broken his confidence issue his personality makes him a desirable male. Much better than the likes of Quentyn or Jorah for instance. I mean Val and Melisandre have been hovering around him like vultures.

[Summer is Ending]

Because he's Frodo though instead of getting Samwise the brave he gets Samwell the butterball.

[Lady Winter Rose]

What means nievity?

I think Jon isn't 100% perfect, but he is intended to be a saint.

[Luftballoons]

My guess is that Melisandre will play a major part in Jon's recovery, and that they will become lovers in TWOW.

I don't see this happening. We get the sense from Jon's POVs that he is a little shaken and put off by Melisandre. He doesn't trust her. Even if she heals him I think he has learned an important lesson in this area, and will not be so quick to let his defenses down to anyone, nevermind her.

[Flig]

Hes only a teenage boy My own brother acts that way all the time.

Wait, hold on here, you're saying that he has no character flaws, and then when somebody points one out, you brush it off because your brother acts the same way? A flaw is a flaw, regardless of whether your brother shares it or not. The fact that he acts like a real teenage boy does kind of defeats your assertion that he isn't "realistic."

[tgbyhn]

Why do people think Snow is dead?

We know he's been stabbed. That's it.

[total1402]

Wait, hold on here, you're saying that he has no character flaws, and then when somebody points one out, you brush it off because your brother acts the same way? A flaw is a flaw, regardless of whether your brother shares it or not. The fact that he acts like a real teenage boy does kind of defeats your assertion that he isn't "realistic."

I never actually used that word or took it in that direction. If I was saying that, I don't know, a real person would have done this on the wall or Jon Snow wouldn't have done as good as he did then I'd get where you were coming from. But really all I've done is appraise his character traits and succeses vis a vis others in the series. Which he comes out looking a lot better despite the minor issues which others have listed. So having a bit of a strop in a context like my brother would when somebody insults your "traiterous father, bastard" is pretty understandable. Whilst something like Dany hating all "usurpers dogs" in the context we've had hammered into us for several books and knowingly ignorant of the issue; is a bit much especially when she had all of ADWD to talk to Barristan about this after promising to do just that. One is very understandable and sympathetic. The other, just isn't and is extremely abrasive given what the reader knows. Just one example, but its common for most of the other characters. Jon is a bit understandably nieve. Not as much as Sansa or Ned. etc etc

[Stormcloak]

What's wrong with likeable, competent, honourable characters? You don't think those kinds of people are realistic? I could name a few real ones.

As for him being a cliche, sometimes cliches exist for a reason, those kind of characters/storys are good and so they become prevalent.

Anyway Jon's life definitely isn't the charmed existence of your typical fantasy hero. He's a bastard, he takes a vow he doesn't understand that pins him to the sidelines while war tears his family apart, he's forced to kill his role model to pass himself off as a turncloak which some still see him as, he breaks his vows becoming Ygritte's lover, he ends up responsible for her death and then as Lord Commander he forces a mother to abandon her child, breaks his vows again by advising one king and makes such radical decisions and comes so close to abandoning his vows completely when he plans to go south to meet Ramsay that he ends up stabbed by his own men.