Why is Jon Snow not as grey or nuanced as all the other characters?

[WratHofSnoW]

Even among the Starks I'd say hes pretty much got nothing really against him. Bran is misusing his powers. Arya is straying into being psychopathic. Sansa had the whole nievity thing. Whilst when you start looking at the likes of Stannis and Dany the gulf becomes incredibly extreme. To me, he seemed like the typical male protagonist, with virtually no character defects, who essentially solves every problem he is in or overcomes them. He was (apparently) meant to slightly arrogant and entitled for his first chapter but rapidly earns the respect of his peers anyway; even getting Sam forgiven. He gets caputred by wildlings, but, this only gives him the means to defeat them and there was never any question of him betraying the watch. All very by the numbers. He then leads a masterful defence of the watch prooving that hes clever, a great personal fighter and a military leader. Then he shows himself to be humble by refusing Stannis offer of a pardon and Winterfell. Later he advises Stannis on military matters and does an incredible job of running the wall; getting the wildlings to fight for him including giants. He clearly shows himself to be a natural administrator and astute leader.His only failure is that he doesn't have his wolf with him and is murdered by a handful of disgruntled men. However, we all know he isn't dead and will return right as rain next book.

IMO he is the closest the series gets to a Mary Sue character and I fail to see the nuance or greyness in this character at all. Essentially we have it repeatedly hammered into us that this man would make a great King but has the issues of illegitimacy. Being many times better than all the other claiments out there in terms of character and ability. He is the handsome, well intentioned nice guy with all these great abilities who solves every problem he faces. He has the looks n sword skills of Jamie, the inspiration of Dany, the military skills of Stannis and the craftiness of Tyrion; all wrapped up in that Ned Starky goodness. I don't really see the flipside to this character. Being boring is hardly a deficiency when you have all that and are on a level with Mance Raider in the wildlings eyes.

I mean I have to go out of my way to defend Daenerys; I'll admit that right now. Whilst Stannis is just liked because "hes such a lad" and yet its easy to rip into him. But, Jon Snow, I just can't do that. He is presented in a very unambiguously good manner and I actually can't knock him in a comparison with Daenerys. The text explicitly does not give me the leeway to do that. In character and in ability its pretty straightforward which is better in virtually every regard. He is boring. But I'd say thats more a difference in form regarding his charisma. Hes more the quiet person who inspires respect and confidence in others with actions n ability. Dany does so with her voice and raw charisma. The closest analogy I can make would be the Wars of light and Shadow book series with Lysaer and Arithons leadership. But I'd say the end result is the same anyway and once to add all of Jon Snows other traits he still comes out on top.

How is he considered good by the end of Dance? In his last Chapter he is abandoning his position as LC of Night's Watch and is about to lead a wildling horde to attack Winterfell and save his sister? Thus turning his back on his vows. Just because we know that it is the right thing to do doesn't mean its right, and since we get all his actions through his POV we only know how he justifies what he does. Try looking at his situation through say Bowen Marsh's eyes:

Hes letting a wilding army through the wall, feeding, arming and giving them keeps to garrison.

Then he suddenly decides to lead wildings to Winterfell and send the remaining NW rangers on a suicide mission to Hardhome lead by a Wildling Chief.

So how does all this make him good??

[Kanon]

How is he considered good by the end of Dance? In his last Chapter he is abandoning his position as LC of Night's Watch and is about to lead a wildling horde to attack Winterfell and save his sister? Thus turning his back on his vows. Just because we know that it is the right thing to do doesn't mean its right, and since we get all his actions through his POV we only know how he justifies what he does. Try looking at his situation through say Bowen Marsh's eyes:

Hes letting a wilding army through the wall, feeding, arming and giving them keeps to garrison.

Then he suddenly decides to lead wildings to Winterfell and send the remaining NW rangers on a suicide mission to Hardhome lead by a Wildling Chief.

So how does all this make him good??

Because he is doing it to save his "sister" and to kill the cartoony villan Ramsay Snow

[Florina Laufeyson]

If you think Jon Snow is a Mary Sue, it demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of the term.

Exactly. For the the last freaking time, people, MARY SUE DOES NOT MEAN "CHARACTER I DONT LIKE"!

:bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

By the logic many people use to cry Sue, it would be like me saying Cersei is a Sue. "Cersei is a Sue because she will win her trial!" :bs:

NO!!!

Wanna see a real Sue? A true, no-holds-barred, bonafide Mary Sue? Take a look at Bella Swan.

with virtually no character defects

lol. just...lol.

Being a mopey little poot for the better part of the first two books isnt a character flaw. Despite quite a few characters calling him out on this.

Having a sense of entitlement isnt a character flaw.

Choosing self interest over an entire organization which he is in a position of authority, isnt a character flaw.

Becoming cold and distant to those he not just considered friends, but true brothers, isnt a character flaw.

Doing morally questionable actions like swapping a baby at the expense of its mother, or sending a lot of guys from the Watch and wildlings to certain death isnt a character flaw.

....... :bs:

it's almost like people think this is a bad thing.

Jon isnt as grey as many other characters, but i too, fail to see how this is a bad thing. Davos? Brienne? Ned? What about those guys? Are they bad characters or Mary Sues simply because they arent as grey as guys like Tyrion, Jaime, Cersei, etc? Give me a break! What about Sansa who has yet to do anything too far on the moral extreme? Srsly people....srsly.....

Jon is my favorite character and even i know that hes got flaws. Everyone does.

[RedBean]

I never found him all that interesting (except for that one chapter where he became Lord Commander). Maybe if he did some really wild things once in a while I might like him a little more. Don't know how to make him nuanced, though.

[Kanon]

- Get someone from his own sex to pleasure him when he feels like it. Satin, I think could work. Note: Is important that this person is a subordinate, not an equal.

If he did that, he would become one of my favorite characters, GRRM needs to write a m/m sex scene dammit

[Bushido]

"I cannot give you swords,my lord,Night Watch doesn't interfere..."

..but words are not swords

Fine grey moment.

[total1402]

How is he considered good by the end of Dance? In his last Chapter he is abandoning his position as LC of Night's Watch and is about to lead a wildling horde to attack Winterfell and save his sister? Thus turning his back on his vows. Just because we know that it is the right thing to do doesn't mean its right, and since we get all his actions through his POV we only know how he justifies what he does. Try looking at his situation through say Bowen Marsh's eyes:

Hes letting a wilding army through the wall, feeding, arming and giving them keeps to garrison.

Then he suddenly decides to lead wildings to Winterfell and send the remaining NW rangers on a suicide mission to Hardhome lead by a Wildling Chief.

So how does all this make him good??

Its made out as if he can control the wildlings and get them to obey him. In a world where the knights have repeatedly behaved like rabid animals its hard to see how employing the noble savage wildlings is worse. Since they are at the wall taking orders I'd say he has them within his power and they are about to follow him south.

Saving his sister is a very compelling and sympathetic thing to do even though it fails the test which Aemon told him to follow; again.

Plus, the others haven't made any moves to cross the wall for five books; with onlt a few skirmishs n fleeing wildlings to mark their presence. Stannis himself went down South for this very reason so that he could rally forces. Stannis is currently in a bit of bother and if the pink letter is to be believed then the Boltons/Freys are coming North to destroy the NW anyway. Dealing with them took priority over the unimmenent threat of the Others especially since the Wall is indefencible from a southern attack. Essentially the Boltons/Freys had declared war on the watch and such an action threatened the realm. So he wasn't truly breaking his oath by destroying lords who would have destroyed the only thing keeping back the Others.

[clydas]

Actually I think that Jon Snow is far from perfect. While reading ADwD I repeatedly mumbled "stupid, you'll ruin the Watch". His stabbing was one of the more previsible "twists" in the plot.

Jon is a very arrogant guy, it is known. In the first book he mocked his brothers for not fighting as well as him and made that wtfucking tentative of desertion to join Robb.

When with the wildlings he was seriously tempted to stay with them and only escaped because a lucky opportunity presented itself and he didn't think too much.

However, it was in ADwD that Jon's true face was shown. He was starving the Watch, that was what he was doing. Starving the Watch, supporting Stannis and giving shelter to potential enemies (that turned out well, I recognize). He was pissing on Bowen Marsh, Samwell Tarly and Melisandre. Didn't he see Ghost being kind to Mel? Didn't he see the grey girl fleeing from her wedding?

Jon also freed Mance to rescue "Arya" and was preparing to fight Ramsay Bolton, putting his family interests vefore the Watch's. His stabbing was deserved and I wish he is really dead, though I'm sure it is not the case. Maybe he is about to start his redemption.

This is Jon Snow, a character as grey as any other (excluding Viserys and Eddard, these were pure black and pure white respectively).

[redviper9]

Actually I think that Jon Snow is far from perfect. While reading ADwD I repeatedly mumbled "stupid, you'll ruin the Watch". His stabbing was one of the more previsible "twists" in the plot.

Jon is a very arrogant guy, it is known. In the first book he mocked his brothers for not fighting as well as him and made that wtfucking tentative of desertion to join Robb.

When with the wildlings he was seriously tempted to stay with them and only escaped because a lucky opportunity presented itself and he didn't think too much.

However, it was in ADwD that Jon's true face was shown. He was starving the Watch, that was what he was doing. Starving the Watch, supporting Stannis and giving shelter to potential enemies (that turned out well, I recognize). He was pissing on Bowen Marsh, Samwell Tarly and Melisandre. Didn't he see Ghost being kind to Mel? Didn't he see the grey girl fleeing from her wedding?

Jon also freed Mance to rescue "Arya" and was preparing to fight Ramsay Bolton, putting his family interests vefore the Watch's. His stabbing was deserved and I wish he is really dead, though I'm sure it is not the case. Maybe he is about to start his redemption.

This is Jon Snow, a character as grey as any other (excluding Viserys and Eddard, these were pure black and pure white respectively).

Regarding your Bowen Marsh apologia: :bang: and :ack:

And if you think Ned is "pure white" and Viserys is "pure black," you should probably do a reread. There are much blacker characters than Viserys: Joffrey, Gregor Clegane, and Ramsay Bolton immediately come to mind. And we learn after his death that Viserys wasn't always the way he was when we met him in AGoT. He's as much a product of the circumstances surrounding his exile as anything. Had a few things gone differently (Willem Darry's servants not kicking Viserys and Dany out when Darry died, not having to sell Rhaella's crown to survive), Viserys might have been a halfway decent human being. Unlike Joff, the Mountain, and Ramsay, Viserys doesn't appear to have been born a socio/pyschopath.

As for Ned, while he's definitely on the lighter side of gray, he's not a shining white knight. If Jon is indeed Rhaegar's and Lyanna's son, then Ned lied to his king, his wife, his children, and the entire realm for 15 years. And he failed the Maester Aemon test at the end of AGoT; Ned chose his family at the expense of telling the truth about Joffrey's parentage, which ended up costing him his life because he didn't realize he was dealing with a sociopath in Joffrey and a sleazebag in Littlefinger.

[Melonica Stormborn]

GRRM is excellent at using fantasy topes to his advantage. This involves leading readers to liking and disliking certain characters.

Except we were supposed to like Darkstar :ack:

But that is off-topic.

Back to Jon, I don't even think he really apologized to Grenn (or was that Pyp?) who he beat up on the AGoT. He was just too ecstatic that Bran was finally awake and was all smiles to everyone around him. Fast forward to book 5 and he's done more questionable things than just being prejudiced against baseborn people. I would admit that he is relatively good compared with other characters, but he's no Rhaegar. I agree Rhaegar is supposed to be the perfect guy that despite the war he caused, he's being romanticized by everyone.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and that's all Jon has going for him. :D

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I don't know how someone can be "too perfect" but at the same time "too boring" or, my favorite, "too emo." If he's too perfect, how can he be boring or emo? And if he's boring or emo, he isn't perfect.

Really dead or not, someone who is perfect and without flaws wouldn't be the victim of an assassination attempt. I don't blame Jon for what happened, really, but someone obviously took issue with his leadership style, no?

Jon tends to have a fairly large chip on his shoulder, feeling the need to prove himself and show that he's "worthy." He dwells on his birth status and just thinking about it at one point drives him to violently engage a fellow Night's Watch brother, to the point where he has to be physically pulled off. He, cruelly I think we can agree, but for the right reasons, takes a baby away from his mother. He takes wildling children as hostages to ensure their good behavior. He shows frustration when people like Bowen can't understand his rationale. I think he definitely has some darkness in him.

Having said that, the thing that really makes me gravitate toward Jon as someone I can really root for is that I DON'T always have to defend truly evil, despicable shit that he does, because he doesn't really do it. I don't have to make limp-dick excuses for him torturing people or committing mass executions or any of that stuff. I vehemently disagree that being an evil person automatically makes someone more interesting. I don't need Jon to "go to the dark side" to become interesting, because he's already interesting to me, as someone who got to where he is based largely on merit (his dad's name got him on the radar but wouldn't have mattered if he had no natural talent). Nearly everyone else in the story who's a POV is a lord or a lady or a princess or a queen or king or otherwise legitimate — except Jon (publicly, anyway). And yet he can go toe to toe with any of them, and I love him for that.

This whole thing also strikes me as "please validate a pre-existing opinion that I have," but whatever.

My question is why do you ask the readers, "why is Jon Snow not as grey or nuanced as all the other characters"? I don't think that you expect an answer from us, more like a discussion on how Gary Sueish Jon Snow is.

Exactly.

[Draxus]

lol Jon isn't the least grey. Bran is. The kid is the most pure hearted character in the story.

[straits]

lol Jon isn't the least grey. Bran is. The kid is the most pure hearted character in the story.

So pure he stuck his throbbing consciousness deep into Hodor :rolleyes:

[Summer is Ending]

So pure he stuck his throbbing consciousness deep into Hodor :rolleyes:

Yeah but when you reread the passages about Hodor you realize Martin wrote him to be basically a human dog. He forgets everything he's doing and runs when he smells food. He freaks out if you try to wash him but will happily jump in the water by himself. Goes nuts during thunder storms and starts barking his head off I mean Hodoring his head off.

I was going to say that it was then just a matter of Bran beating him down into submission but there was never really any fight in that dog to begin with.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Yeah but when you reread the passages about Hodor you realize Martin wrote him to be basically a human dog. He forgets everything he's doing and runs when he smells food. He freaks out if you try to wash him but will happily jump in the water by himself. Goes nuts during thunder storms and starts barking his head off I mean Hodoring his head off.

I was going to say that it was then just a matter of Bran beating him down into submission but there was never really any fight in that dog to begin with.

I have to disagree with this. Hodor gets extremely upset when Bran possesses him and it's clear that this is a very deep violation. Not to get off the topic of Jon, but what Bran does to Hodor IS morally wrong (and Bran deep down, I think, knows it but does it anyway) and it IS a gross violation. People are not dogs.

[Florina Laufeyson]

I don't know how someone can be "too perfect" but at the same time "too boring" or, my favorite, "too emo." If he's too perfect, how can he be boring or emo? And if he's boring or emo, he isn't perfect.

Really dead or not, someone who is perfect and without flaws wouldn't be the victim of an assassination attempt. I don't blame Jon for what happened, really, but someone obviously took issue with his leadership style, no?

Jon tends to have a fairly large chip on his shoulder, feeling the need to prove himself and show that he's "worthy." He dwells on his birth status and just thinking about it at one point drives him to violently engage a fellow Night's Watch brother, to the point where he has to be physically pulled off. He, cruelly I think we can agree, but for the right reasons, takes a baby away from his mother. He takes wildling children as hostages to ensure their good behavior. He shows frustration when people like Bowen can't understand his rationale. I think he definitely has some darkness in him.

Having said that, the thing that really makes me gravitate toward Jon as someone I can really root for is that I DON'T always have to defend truly evil, despicable shit that he does, because he doesn't really do it. I don't have to make limp-dick excuses for him torturing people or committing mass executions or any of that stuff. I vehemently disagree that being an evil person automatically makes someone more interesting. I don't need Jon to "go to the dark side" to become interesting, because he's already interesting to me, as someone who got to where he is based largely on merit (his dad's name got him on the radar but wouldn't have mattered if he had no natural talent). Nearly everyone else in the story who's a POV is a lord or a lady or a princess or a queen or king or otherwise legitimate — except Jon (publicly, anyway). And yet he can go toe to toe with any of them, and I love him for that.

This whole thing also strikes me as "please validate a pre-existing opinion that I have," but whatever.

Exactly.

Thank you, Apple Martini, for this post. :bowdown: I like Jon because hes not a totally morally grey dude. I like him because i find him interesting.

[JonnSnow]

Jon's character def has flaws. He did involve in westeros' politics by helping Stannis. He also tried to save "Arya (fake one)" while he's suppose to have no connection to his old family anymore.

All those things shows that he has a certain bias.

But yup if you compare him w other contenders for the main "hero" of the story, his flaws seem to be minor.

[Melonica Stormborn]

I don't know how someone can be "too perfect" but at the same time "too boring" or, my favorite, "too emo." If he's too perfect, how can he be boring or emo? And if he's boring or emo, he isn't perfect.

Really dead or not, someone who is perfect and without flaws wouldn't be the victim of an assassination attempt. I don't blame Jon for what happened, really, but someone obviously took issue with his leadership style, no?

Jon tends to have a fairly large chip on his shoulder, feeling the need to prove himself and show that he's "worthy." He dwells on his birth status and just thinking about it at one point drives him to violently engage a fellow Night's Watch brother, to the point where he has to be physically pulled off. He, cruelly I think we can agree, but for the right reasons, takes a baby away from his mother. He takes wildling children as hostages to ensure their good behavior. He shows frustration when people like Bowen can't understand his rationale. I think he definitely has some darkness in him.

Having said that, the thing that really makes me gravitate toward Jon as someone I can really root for is that I DON'T always have to defend truly evil, despicable shit that he does, because he doesn't really do it. I don't have to make limp-dick excuses for him torturing people or committing mass executions or any of that stuff. I vehemently disagree that being an evil person automatically makes someone more interesting. I don't need Jon to "go to the dark side" to become interesting, because he's already interesting to me, as someone who got to where he is based largely on merit (his dad's name got him on the radar but wouldn't have mattered if he had no natural talent). Nearly everyone else in the story who's a POV is a lord or a lady or a princess or a queen or king or otherwise legitimate — except Jon (publicly, anyway). And yet he can go toe to toe with any of them, and I love him for that.

This whole thing also strikes me as "please validate a pre-existing opinion that I have," but whatever.

:agree: Especially the emphasized part. Can't believe to defend Jon posters including me had to actually cite the bad things he's done. The opposite of what goes on in other threads. :bang:

[JonnSnow]

I don't know how someone can be "too perfect" but at the same time "too boring" or, my favorite, "too emo." If he's too perfect, how can he be boring or emo? And if he's boring or emo, he isn't perfect.

Really dead or not, someone who is perfect and without flaws wouldn't be the victim of an assassination attempt. I don't blame Jon for what happened, really, but someone obviously took issue with his leadership style, no?

Jon tends to have a fairly large chip on his shoulder, feeling the need to prove himself and show that he's "worthy." He dwells on his birth status and just thinking about it at one point drives him to violently engage a fellow Night's Watch brother, to the point where he has to be physically pulled off. He, cruelly I think we can agree, but for the right reasons, takes a baby away from his mother. He takes wildling children as hostages to ensure their good behavior. He shows frustration when people like Bowen can't understand his rationale. I think he definitely has some darkness in him.

Having said that, the thing that really makes me gravitate toward Jon as someone I can really root for is that I DON'T always have to defend truly evil, despicable shit that he does, because he doesn't really do it. I don't have to make limp-dick excuses for him torturing people or committing mass executions or any of that stuff. I vehemently disagree that being an evil person automatically makes someone more interesting. I don't need Jon to "go to the dark side" to become interesting, because he's already interesting to me, as someone who got to where he is based largely on merit (his dad's name got him on the radar but wouldn't have mattered if he had no natural talent). Nearly everyone else in the story who's a POV is a lord or a lady or a princess or a queen or king or otherwise legitimate — except Jon (publicly, anyway). And yet he can go toe to toe with any of them, and I love him for that.

This whole thing also strikes me as "please validate a pre-existing opinion that I have," but whatever.

Exactly.

Good one Apple Martini! These line in bold is exactly why he is my favorite character too.

[butterbumps!]

Yes - definitely! I certainly admire GRRM for managing to create such likeable and, whenever he desire, unlikeable characters.

I don't think I'm making my point very clear here... I think generally my problem is just that Jon's moral ambiguity is only ambiguous IN the text. As readers we all know this decisions are the only actual solution because of meta knowledge about the Others and the typical structure of fantasy novels -- for example: we know that the fact there will be a shortage of food at the NW is not going to be a problem, so we immediately side with Jon. Other characters aren't provided with such certainty (Daenerys in Slaver's Bay, everything Cat does, Sansa in the Vale, etc.)

Yea, I thought your position was somewhat less "anti-Jon" than was coming through. It's that whole issue where his choices don't tend to cause moral dilemmas for the reader-- the friction only exists in-story for the most part. I can appreciate it. If he was "transplanted" to another series, I don't know how I'd feel about it; part of the draw I feel toward Jon is that he provides something of a breath of air from the cesspit of idiocy/ corruption/ malice that is the majority of the series. I like some of the dirty characters, and I definitely like complexity, but Jon's the guy you can kind of get behind and feel good about (I know this is Dany for, but I think it's a similar concept for the two of us). And I actually would argue that Jon's a complex character, and that his arc has significance in a subtle way, not dissimilar to the way Sansa undergoes evolution.

I wasn't all that warm to Jon in the beginning, though, despite understanding that the Others would be a huge problem. He grew on me with each book, I loved his time with Mance, and became a strong advocate after DwD.

We're cool so long as you don't start advocating support for Bowen Marsh :cool4: (between the LF appreciation and Cat hate threads lately, this would probably make my heart explode).

Regarding your Bowen Marsh apologia: :bang: and :ack:

seconded.