Why is Jon Snow not as grey or nuanced as all the other characters?

[The guy from the Vale]

The problem isn't that Jon isn't grey or nuanced. He's fine the way he is.

The problem is that half the fanbase determinedly believes that Jon's destiny in the next two books is to become a one-dimensional action hero who becomes the amazing Azhor Azhai Reborn and Prince That Was Promised while amazingly riding one of Dany's amazing dragons and wielding an amazing flaming sword as he amazingly defeats the Others in amazing fashion, and then sits the amazing Iron Throne as the amazing King of the Seven Kingdoms and or sits the amazing throne in the North as the amazing King in the North with the amazing Dany as his amazing bride. All because he's the amazing song of amazing ice and amazing fire because he's the amazing son of the amazing Rhaegar and the amazing Lyanna.

Basically, a good chunk of the fanbase will have you believe that every character you've followed so far is only tangentially related to the amazing story of the amazing Jon Snow.

Did I mention he was amazing?

I think Jon is TPtwP/AAR. I don't think he'll literally ride a dragon or wield a flaming sword. He already has his Lightbringer (the Watch). No action hero there. I am not sure if he'll ever sit the Iron Throne, although I would like that. I sure as hell hope he'll never be forced to marry Dany, although I can see how that might happen. You're fighting a strawman.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Wait until he becomes the new Nights King

That would be cool. I'm getting bored of him. I like him, btw.

[Balerion06]

I think Jon is TPtwP/AAR. I don't think he'll literally ride a dragon or wield a flaming sword. He already has his Lightbringer (the Watch). No action hero there. I am not sure if he'll ever sit the Iron Throne, although I would like that. I sure as hell hope he'll never be forced to marry Dany, although I can see how that might happen. You're fighting a strawman.

I was mostly being sarcastic, but I suppose that's hard to convey over the internet (doh!).

Anyhow, I think a big reason some people dislike Jon is because a large part of the fandom seems to believe he's the central figure in the series and that nearly everything in the overarching plot revolves around him, thus trivializing other characters who for 5 books have been presented at least as equally important as him, if not more so.

[lady m]

I was mostly being sarcastic, but I suppose that's hard to convey over the internet (doh!).

Anyhow, I think a big reason some people dislike Jon is because a large part of the fandom seems to believe he's the central figure in the series and that nearly everything in the overarching plot revolves around him, thus trivializing other characters who for 5 books have been presented at least as equally important as him, if not more so.

There's plenty of people, including the OP of this thread, who think the exact same thing about Dany, and that everyone else are just supporting characters. The reality is that the original POVs are more important than the rest of the characters, this includes both Jon and Dany.

[Gendels Children]

There's plenty of people, including the OP of this thread, who think the exact same thing about Dany, and that everyone else are just supporting characters. The reality is that the original POVs are more important than the rest of the characters, this includes both Jon and Dany.

I certainly agree with this, I also think its more a personal preference as to who is the 'main' or 'most important' character, as the story is yet to be finished we can only speculate who will be the last man standing, with a dragon, or, magic sward, or both... or neither. but these original characters we got to know in the start are most likely going to be the more influential people of the series, especially considering how short GRRM was originally going to make the series, that makes me think a lot of these new ones have just been thrown in here and there to either throw us off or simply play a small role in helping or hindering and generally shaping the more 'main' characters

[Iroh]

Even among the Starks I'd say hes pretty much got nothing really against him. Bran is misusing his powers. Arya is straying into being psychopathic. Sansa had the whole nievity thing. Whilst when you start looking at the likes of Stannis and Dany the gulf becomes incredibly extreme. To me, he seemed like the typical male protagonist, with virtually no character defects, who essentially solves every problem he is in or overcomes them. He was (apparently) meant to slightly arrogant and entitled for his first chapter but rapidly earns the respect of his peers anyway; even getting Sam forgiven. He gets caputred by wildlings, but, this only gives him the means to defeat them and there was never any question of him betraying the watch. All very by the numbers. He then leads a masterful defence of the watch prooving that hes clever, a great personal fighter and a military leader. Then he shows himself to be humble by refusing Stannis offer of a pardon and Winterfell. Later he advises Stannis on military matters and does an incredible job of running the wall; getting the wildlings to fight for him including giants. He clearly shows himself to be a natural administrator and astute leader.His only failure is that he doesn't have his wolf with him and is murdered by a handful of disgruntled men. However, we all know he isn't dead and will return right as rain next book.

IMO he is the closest the series gets to a Mary Sue character and I fail to see the nuance or greyness in this character at all. Essentially we have it repeatedly hammered into us that this man would make a great King but has the issues of illegitimacy. Being many times better than all the other claiments out there in terms of character and ability. He is the handsome, well intentioned nice guy with all these great abilities who solves every problem he faces. He has the looks n sword skills of Jamie, the inspiration of Dany, the military skills of Stannis and the craftiness of Tyrion; all wrapped up in that Ned Starky goodness. I don't really see the flipside to this character. Being boring is hardly a deficiency when you have all that and are on a level with Mance Raider in the wildlings eyes.

I mean I have to go out of my way to defend Daenerys; I'll admit that right now. Whilst Stannis is just liked because "hes such a lad" and yet its easy to rip into him. But, Jon Snow, I just can't do that. He is presented in a very unambiguously good manner and I actually can't knock him in a comparison with Daenerys. The text explicitly does not give me the leeway to do that. In character and in ability its pretty straightforward which is better in virtually every regard. He is boring. But I'd say thats more a difference in form regarding his charisma. Hes more the quiet person who inspires respect and confidence in others with actions n ability. Dany does so with her voice and raw charisma. The closest analogy I can make would be the Wars of light and Shadow book series with Lysaer and Arithons leadership. But I'd say the end result is the same anyway and once to add all of Jon Snows other traits he still comes out on top.

I agree with all the things that you have said...but for Jon not have become grey, many characters had to do a fantastic job to save him before he entered in this path.

Ghost

Tyrion

Donal Noye

Samwell

Jeor Mormont

Qhorin

Ygritte

Maester Aemon

[Greymoon]

I don't think Jon is not Grey. He did make some decisions that were not always honorable and he does have some character flaws:

• he attempted desertion after learning about the war.
  
• he is arrogant and childish (at first) and believes himself entitled to become a ranger.
  
• he hesitates when it comes to Ygritte. Yes, in the end, he leaves her, but his decision seems forced by circumstances. Ghost deserts him for a time while Jon is ridding with the wildlings which for me was the sign that Jon was effectively losing sight of his objective. Ghost returns after Jon refuses Stannis’s offer, doesn’t he?
  
• he betrays his vows with Ygritte, although one can argue that it was necessary.
  
• he sends Mance Rayder to rescue Arya, that's another betrayal of his vows.
  
• he is constantly on the edge of breaking the Night's Watch's neutrality, during his dealings with Stannis, and later when he wants to ride to Winterfell.
  
• he has no authority to marry Alys Karstark, besides the authority he gives himself, and the fact that she asks it of him. Here Jon is not acting as a neutral party, and LC of the Night's watch. He is overstepping his duties, and it's the same when he gives Stannis tips to woo the north.
  

I can see how all these things may be excused, and in context they even make sense, and a lot of people would probably do the same. But the point is, Jon is not not grey he has flaws. He's not a murderer and not unnecessarily cruel, but he has flaws.

And though this is a bit off topic...has anyone ever wondered if Jon killed Ygritte in truth? In the scene, he's is fighting alongside Satin, and he glimpses her hair, lowers his bow...later, he runs out of arrows, and he drops his bow I think, to concentrated on the trap door. then he remembers he needs more arrows, and in the chaos of the attack, I can't see how Jon wouldn't actually just fill his scabbard with the first type of arrows he can get a hold off. I'm not sure how it's all organized during an attack of course, but-

I've just wondered. Because when Jon finds Ygritte, he looks at the arrow piercing her chest and thinks it wasn't one of mine. because the feather is a different color than what he normally uses...

[Greymoon]

Also...I've never perceived Jon as emo or boring. IMO the TV show ruined Jon's character. I mean no offense to the actor, it's just that the way I read Jon and the way he's portrayed are vastly different. I love the book Jon, and can barely stand the show Jon. :dunno:

[Viserys_The Transformed]

I know such persons like Jon Snow, who do things smoothly and easily and achieve great stuff, in real life.

[Rickeen Baratheon]

I think he is actually dead. He 'denied the north' by not listening to Ghost's warnings. As Robb did. Now, you will say "What about Arya?" - She sent Nymeria away, yes, but did not deny the north in the sense of the others. She'd listen to the growls and moans of her wolf when around certain people if they reunite. She has the wolf dreams and we can see she is still very much part of the north. If Jon stays dead, I'd love it for poetic justice and proof that the wolves were very supernatural. :)