Why is Jon Snow not as grey or nuanced as all the other characters?

[Fwaatcha]

Jon and others were ordered to attack Sam in the practice yard.

He didn't and he made sure Sam wasn't attacked.

He subverted orders as well as disobeyed them.

So Jon obeying Quarins order to kill him was only done because it suited Jon to live not becuase Jon always obeyed orders from Higher Ranked Crows.

Ned Stark said it best in the show to Jaime

"You protected Aery's well , when it suited you."

[Melonica Stormborn]

Proving beyond doubt that Jon is gay for Sam. Ygritte is every man's dream girl. She's tough, clever, funny, pretty and independent. She's the kind of woman you can rely on, the kind of woman who won't hang on you for extended periods of time and the kind that'll still make you feel powerful.

If Jon walks away from that on some thin pretext (his vows), he's gay. And I don't mean Renly gay. I mean Liberace meets Freddy Mercury gay.

I knew those rumors with Satin aren't baseless. :lmao:

[Daenerys is my queen]

I like Stannis but don't consider him the second coming at all. Based on this whole thread, that should be Jon (I'm obviously not being serious). There are legitimate reasons for liking him, but that's another discussion for another day.

As much as I like Dany, she's supposed to be the most beautiful girl in the world, she has dragons, she's charismatic. What does that make her if not Mary Sue herself? That's why I avoid pinning a literary archetype to anyone in this series; it takes away from character analysis if we can attribute everything to being Mary/Gary Sue, plot gifts etc etc etc.

If Jon ever becomes a zombie, he should team up with Mama Stark, hanging people all over Westeros.

"Mary Sues" have no faults. Dany has plenty of them.

[straits]

Jon and others were ordered to attack Sam in the practice yard.

He didn't and he made sure Sam wasn't attacked.

He subverted orders as well as disobeyed them.

So Jon obeying Quarins order to kill him was only done because it suited Jon to live not becuase Jon always obeyed orders from Higher Ranked Crows.

Ned Stark said it best in the show to Jaime

"You protected Aery's well , when it suited you."

How do you make that jump? Two totally different situation, one in training, the other life or death. One where he disobeys an order from a figure he despises, another where he kills a man he respects when engaged in combat.

And that quote is a bit irrelevant considering Jon is not Halfhand's bodyguard but his subordinate. You make it sound like Jon couldn't wait to cross over to the wildlings for no particular reason.

[Melonica Stormborn]

"Mary Sues" have no faults. Dany has plenty of them.

I totally agree with you. I was just trying to make a point because Jon's faults have been blamed to someone or something except him just to make the point that he is Gary Sue-ish in this thread. Dany's and Jon's arcs show many parallels and both failed in the end. Maybe they've been initially given desirable, Mary/Gary Sue-ish traits, but it's what they do with what they have that matters. :D

[Daenerys is my queen]

I totally agree with you. I was just trying to make a point because Jon's faults have been blamed to someone or something except him just to make the point that he is Gary Sue-ish in this thread. Dany's and Jon's arcs show many parallels and both failed in the end. Maybe they've been initially given desirable, Mary/Gary Sue-ish traits, but it's what they do with what they have that matters. :D

Oh ok. :) I can almost see why people would say that Jon doesn't have faults even though he does. But Dany.....no way. She has plenty of faults. And so does Jon. They are both wonderfully flawed characters.

[King Hodor I]

I think that Jon is likely as flawless as Tyrion.

Tyrion does nothing for himself and holds no grudges even when belittled by everyone else.

Most people have always called him Imp which was ment as an Insult. Being a Lannister he could have hanged most and made them fer him. He just laughed with them.

Now you might say "bad Tyri kill his Dady" but he only did that to protect his wifes honor. When given the Chance to let Mormont die he was like "Hey that guy kidnapped me and hates me, lets save him" where a Grey Character would have killed him and felt bad afterwards. Another example for our cleve Imp is "Hey lady Catelyn wants to hang me in the Vale. I will protect her with my life!!" Hes doing more honorable things than Ned. His only selfish action was telling Jamie he killed Joff.

Dont burn me because this is a Snow thread!

[The Drunkard]

I think that Jon is likely as flawless as Tyrion.

Tyrion does nothing for himself and holds no grudges even when belittled by everyone else.

Most people have always called him Imp which was ment as an Insult. Being a Lannister he could have hanged most and made them fer him. He just laughed with them.

Now you might say "bad Tyri kill his Dady" but he only did that to protect his wifes honor. When given the Chance to let Mormont die he was like "Hey that guy kidnapped me and hates me, lets save him" where a Grey Character would have killed him and felt bad afterwards. Another example for our cleve Imp is "Hey lady Catelyn wants to hang me in the Vale. I will protect her with my life!!" Hes doing more honorable things than Ned. His only selfish action was telling Jamie he killed Joff.

Dont burn me because this is a Snow thread!

:ack:

You're kidding, right?!

[Dolorous Nedd]

At the very worst I could see him becoming like Coldhands. However, this won't happen because he still needs to become King and screw Dany; given the House of the Undying prophecy. So he can't beocme undead or side with the Others hes been fighting for five books.

I mean Martin slams virtually every archtype in fantasy from amazonian warriors to child assasians to King Arthur and all the rest. Jon Snow is just not subverted to anywhere near the same degree; he is the stereotypical male fantasy protagonist. Who then goes on to do amazing things. Even his alleged slip-ups aren't really massive or his fault and have always served to advance his plot.

Do you really see Jon and Dany being at odds with each other? I think they have a very similar sense of what is right and wrong.

[Dolorous Nedd]

Jon and others were ordered to attack Sam in the practice yard.

He didn't and he made sure Sam wasn't attacked.

He subverted orders as well as disobeyed them.

So Jon obeying Quarins order to kill him was only done because it suited Jon to live not becuase Jon always obeyed orders from Higher Ranked Crows.

Ned Stark said it best in the show to Jaime

"You protected Aery's well , when it suited you."

He did what was honorable. This brings up the old argument should you obey an order from a superior that pretty much everyone with a conscience knows is evil?

[King Hodor I]

:ack:

You're kidding, right?!

I am not, Tyrion has annoyed me because he is too good. Jon is more of a new Ned which is a little boring (if he wasnt confronted with the Others).

[Melonica Stormborn]

Tyrion is not written to be good, but to be cool (impin aside), in my humble opinion. So cool that many justify his bad acts and consider him a good character.

[Scipio Africanus]

A lot of stories have a "Christ figure" whose motivations aren't necessarily Christ-like. That character is identified as the Christ figure because he has the characteristics of the archetypal hero: he (occasionally she) is an orphan or bastard of mysterious but fabulous birth who has supernatural powers (and often a magic weapon) that will enable him to fulfill his destiny as the savior of mankind. That's Jon in a nutshell, and that's also why people find his character so familiar or clichéd. Nearly every saga, epic, or fantasy has a hero with more than one of these characteristics.

In Jon's case there are more parallels to the New Testament story of Jesus. To quote myself:

Well, I agree, while Jon might have something of a messiah complex, people being resurrected is not a story solely reserved for the Old Testament or the New. There were tales of heroes (usually demi-gods) performing fantastic feats long before anyone ever heard of Jesus.

I just don't see how Jon mirrors Jesus all that much, and we'll have to see if he even gets resurrected (either he is truely dead or seriously wounded but not dead). Jesus was all about spreading the word to worship his dad who was the one true (and benevolent) god, while I don't see Jon preaching much of anything. I'd say Red Mel looks more like Jesus then Jon does in that department. ;)

Jon really sucks at keeping his vows.

That's kind of the whole theme Martin has going down for ASOFAI. The difference between pledging promises to painted sigils and crowned men, conflicting with one's own interests and even life.

The whole Jamie arc revolved around this. The Barristan one more recently too. Even Eddard and long before him Ser Arthur Dayne struggled with their vows.

Jon should NEVER have expected his men to abandon their developed hatred of wildlings.

Who says he expected that? He knew after a while he'd never convince the Bowenians of his actions. He expected them to follow orders though.

[Winter's Knight]

Awesome!

I would love for Jon to be gay! I dont even care!

Can I interest you in some Jomance?

But seriously, Jon is not gay-his lusting for Ygritte and Val show that he is, indeed, attracted to women. Is it possible that he may develop an attraction to men as well? Sure, sexuality is not cast in iron.

[Scipio Africanus]

...and here I thought I'd seen the worst with the BrienSan F/F (M/M) shipping.

[butterbumps!]

I think that Jon is likely as flawless as Tyrion.

Tyrion does nothing for himself and holds no grudges even when belittled by everyone else.

Most people have always called him Imp which was ment as an Insult. Being a Lannister he could have hanged most and made them fer him. He just laughed with them.

Now you might say "bad Tyri kill his Dady" but he only did that to protect his wifes honor. When given the Chance to let Mormont die he was like "Hey that guy kidnapped me and hates me, lets save him" where a Grey Character would have killed him and felt bad afterwards. Another example for our cleve Imp is "Hey lady Catelyn wants to hang me in the Vale. I will protect her with my life!!" Hes doing more honorable things than Ned. His only selfish action was telling Jamie he killed Joff.

Dont burn me because this is a Snow thread!

Since you subsequently said you were not joking about this, may I ask whose benefit strangling Shae was to serve? His treatment of sex workers while in Essos? Letting Joffrey fling the Antler Men across the Blackwater?

How do you make that jump? Two totally different situation, one in training, the other life or death. One where he disobeys an order from a figure he despises, another where he kills a man he respects when engaged in combat.

And that quote is a bit irrelevant considering Jon is not Halfhand's bodyguard but his subordinate. You make it sound like Jon couldn't wait to cross over to the wildlings for no particular reason.

I agree with you, but would also add the quote that was cited is more than just a "bit irrelevant"-- it's completely wrong, even with regard to Jaime. "You protected Aery's well , when it suited you" isn't really the point of Jaime's killing Aerys- Jaime wasn't doing this for personal gain, but as a "greater good" act, which Ned doesn't realize. Ned is wrong sometimes.

[King Hodor I]

Since you subsequently said you were not joking about this, may I ask whose benefit strangling Shae was to serve? His treatment of sex workers while in Essos? Letting Joffrey fling the Antler Men across the Blackwater?

Shae = crime of passion but your right its something i never looked at from this position;

Currently i am on a reread of dragons (beginning) and cant remember which sex slaves u meant. And letting Joff fling antler man was as I see it a attempt to keep Joff on the frontlines so the men wouldnt break.

The Jon gay Idea is great!

Not thet its likely but I love the prospect of King Jon and his fat Queen Sam (is Sam really still so fat? he has lost considerable weight at different Situations aka "his Swordbelt was too wide") ruling the seven Kingdoms

[The Dornishman's Wife]

Currently i am on a reread of dragons (beginning) and cant remember which sex slaves u meant

You will soon find out then. Pay attention to his interactions in Illyrio's manse (this is pretty early in the book) and then watch out for second servings in Selhorys (around half-way through). I really like Tyrion in general, but these actions are quite unacceptable nevertheless.

[butterbumps!]

Shae = crime of passion but your right its something i never looked at from this position;

Currently i am on a reread of dragons (beginning) and cant remember which sex slaves u meant. And letting Joff fling antler man was as I see it a attempt to keep Joff on the frontlines so the men wouldnt break.

The Jon gay Idea is great!

Not thet its likely but I love the prospect of King Jon and his fat Queen Sam (is Sam really still so fat? he has lost considerable weight at different Situations aka "his Swordbelt was too wide") ruling the seven Kingdoms

lol, yea, Tyrion's a tricky little devil-- his arc tends to be presented so charitably, it kind of innately downplays some of the dark grey things he does, which is really interesting and really good writing. In DwD, there's 2 particularly uncomfortable scenes with sex slaves- one in Illyrio's manse, the other right before running into Jorah. What I meant by the Antler Men is that yes, I agree with what you're saying about keeping Joff occupied, but it's an instance where he allows a needless act of cruelty in order to pander to the wrong cause (Joffrey). I think part of what makes Tyrion so interesting is that he's a competent guy working for a really bad cause, and in so doing, he ends up compromising on morality sometimes. I'm sorry for taking the thread off topic though. If you have interest, a few of us are doing a Tyrion reread project over here: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/75853-rereading-tyrion-iii-acok/ (we're up to the Battle of the Blackwater).

I like gay Jon too, but I think his frontrunner for domestic partner is Mance. I think that succubus Gilly put Sam out of the running.

[Winter's Knight]

I like gay Jon too, but I think his frontrunner for domestic partner is Mance. I think that succubus Gilly put Sam out of the running.

Ahh, my work here is done.